More_Badass
Member
Oh, it's working now. I guess it needed time to be added.
This is my first Blizzard game outside of some Hearthstone, so wasn't sure what I was or wasn't doing wrong
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Overwatch |OT6.99999997311%| Game of the Year
- Thread starter ExMachina
- Start date
This is my first Blizzard game outside of some Hearthstone, so wasn't sure what I was or wasn't doing wrong
I don't know, I respectfully disagree. Roadhog is the one character who's kit feels perfectly and endlessly entertaining to me. There's nothing more satisfying in the game (outside of some good Winston hops) than getting a crazy hook that saves your team at the last second, or running into cover to heal yourself while shit is going on around you.
I would be bummed if they changed his kit. Less bummed if they nerfed it. I do understand where you're coming from though.
xaosslug
Member
see, this is where I think peeps miss the whole 'this hero is OP, nerf plzzz Blizzz!' bit. Roadhog's OPness is mostly based on a player's skill w/ him. A crap player cannot run shit w/ Rodahog and will just be an ult battery for enemy D.Vas and the like.
And if your dps is good he will focus that fatty down in seconds.
With how Rein has been in every single game now, and Zarya's fall off, he's not a bad option if you can abuse his out of LOS damage.
But defense matrix eats up so much of that spam.
I know what you mean; I gravitated to Hog for a long time, partially because I liked how well his mechanics fit his post-apocalyptic biker flavor, and partially because of how satisfying it felt to get a high-priority hook. When you play Hog and make picks, you definitely feel like you're contributing a lot to your team's efforts.
After a while, I guess I just fell out of love with him because I didn't like the one-hit-KO playstyle. I would play Reinhardt and feel like there was an awesome layer of cat-and-mouse involved in getting a great charge or firestrike pick in between shields, or I would play Winston and feel exhilarated by the fact that I had to literally dive behind enemy lines and expose myself to danger to be effective. With Hog, it was usually just point > hook > m1 or close the gap > m2, and bam, done deal. And that's definitely an oversimplification, but that's how it started to feel to me.
Overall I definitely agree that replacing the hook would be really disruptive, and I know a lot of players love the way it currently works. I'd probably be satisfied if it (and his m2) were tweaked so that they were less dominant.
Garrett Hawke
Member
isn't the issue with competitive balance always going to be that if there is one hero who is even slightly more efficient at something they will all flock to it? because play at that level is all about efficiency?
so surely even if they change ana, everyone will just go to whoever has the best healing after that until that healer is changed and then they will move on to the next one etc?
so surely even if they change ana, everyone will just go to whoever has the best healing after that until that healer is changed and then they will move on to the next one etc?
Oh yeah true, forgot about the other pink tank.
So wait, we can nerf Genji's dragon blade because the really good players could get team wipes with it but we can't nerf Roadhog's hook because only good players can exploit it?
Interested to know which DPS kills Roadhog whilst negotiating Dva's matrix and constant heals by Ana. By the time that's happened, his hook cool down is finished and he's got a free kill in the fight again.
This used to not be a big deal because Reaper was actually good and teams would built ults quickly enough to negate the disadvantage of a pick.
It seems like whatever they do, people will get mad at them lol.
Paltheos
Member
There is. Zone your opponents out with threat of the hook. Anyone who steps into his line of sight without protection or without knowing his cooldown is asking for trouble. The existence of Roadhog on your team limits the opponents' positioning options.
Edit: Also, people need to stop bitching about the hook. Overwatch is a game that favors the attacker - That hook did indeed totally hit you, even if you're safe now behind a corner and the animation looks ridiculous. If anything the hook needs to be fixed to favor Roadhog more - Those point blank hooks that somehow move your opponent somewhere completely different come to mind as one of the most annoying elements of the hook's behavior. I know solving it simply by guaranteeing the target moves in front of wherever Roadhog was at the time of the hook wouldn't really fly but... no, I don't know how to fix it.
Human Trashcan
Banned
I KNOW! It's an actual fucking epidemic and a problem.
Shouta
Member
Receipts!
But seriously, I haven't really seen it in high plat/low diamond myself. I guess I should have continued to grind in S2 to get to Masters and see how it was lol. I find it way more consistent to just hook than try for for perfectly spaced secondary fire especially if you have multiple targets at different ranges.
That's a huge part of it and part of the reason why I think making rash changes can be pretty bad. Complaining is always flavor of the month and when one thing is fixed, something else will be next up. In some cases, it's warranted but in others it's not so much.
Ana is interesting because, in this case, she definitely needs to be hit with the nerfbat slightly. The reason why it wasn't as apparent before was because the game was so centered around ultimate abilities. Things died so fast that you couldn't out heal it except with Zen's ult. Now that Ults are a slightly rarer commodity, the ability to heal with her kit can easily keep up or outstrip the damage being dealt. That's IMO anyway.
Paltheos
Member
Yeah, just a little bit. A slight nerf to the biotic grenade should just about do it. Maybe from 200% to 150% healing on allies while the grenade is active? Other than that her kit is great. You could nerf other elements of it, but I still like her as a high ceiling character who can outperform other healers in the right hands, and touching anything else might be too much.
Bumbletron
Member
Right, but the same thing has been said about many other heroes who have needed (and received) nerfs. Like there is a level of play where when there is a problem character they are a huge problem. Unfortunately, this does tend to lead to balancing 'from the top down', but that is where you are going to see where the problems actually are the clearest.
Roadhog may not be a problem so much on lower levels where most hogs are lucky to hit 45-50% with their hooks, but once you get to the range where they are getting 60-80% in any given game it is a huge problem. My hog is only kind of decent and I'm getting 65ish on my hooks. When focused by teammates, which usually happens pretty easily, that thing is dead 100% of the time. That is straight up bad for the game at higher levels, because atm the only counterplay to Rein, D.Va, Hog is to run the same thing yourself or have the most phenomenal of dps.
Most people either don't expect anyone to be able to land the right click or they'll move in to the range for it on their own. Usually the same people who seem to forget that the reason Hog's hook is so good is his M1, and will just run into his face. I find I don't ever have to space it myself, as even at master level they tend to do it for me, haha.
xaosslug
Member
come on, even bad players could get AT LEAST 2-3 kills off of a dragon blade... shit was OP. I mean good Genji players are STILL deadly w/ him. The nerf only made the bad players fall to the wayside.
otoh, a bad Roadhog would be lucky to get a single hook off before he's sent to the shadows for hooch/heals, and RIP shortly thereafter.
That really wasn't the case. Bad Genjis would never got more than a kill because they'd get focused down. Bad Genjis usually use dragon blade when their team isn't engaging or don't move when slashing so they were an easy target. Genjis at high platinum and above actually understood Genji's mechanics and could easily get 2-3 kills solo or deal immense damage in those 8 seconds swinging the fight in their team's favour every ult. Genjis at the top level were getting solo team wipes.
A bad Roadhog can just throw a hook near the opponent team and is guaranteed to grab one if they're clumped up like you usually are at a choke. Even if they can't get the kill, that player is way out of position and can be finished by one of the DPS. This happens every game for me. Dva will melt my Rein shield and that's it. Roadhog throws one hook now and is guaranteed to either get me or someone else and I can't protect them because my shield is gone. The same happens on my team as well and it's not really "fair".
The important thing is that this thing that's better, isn't so much better that it isn't viable to use something else. What they want is a nice Rock/Paper/Scissors balance where nothing is too good and everything has decent counters.
Nah, I've done it myself many times.
https://www.overbuff.com/players/pc/caesar-2952?mode=competitive
Proof I play a lot of Ana, 4 of those 'lost' games were ties but overbuff doesn't count it.
So what's your strategy for Ana carrying? Might try it myself.
xaosslug
Member
you are putting a bad Genji up against decent players vs. a bad Roadhog up against bad players... LOL
the fact that this proverbial team would ficus down Genji at all let alone an ulting Genji is a miracle in and of itself!
Make some opportunistic snipes on the pharah/mccree, you can kill them in 3 shots.
Save sleep dart for flankers/interrupting a rein charge etc, if you die your team will lose.
Don't just waste bio grenade, if you land a big one on the enemy you can win the fight with it especially during transcendence. Or your tanks might need it. Using it on yourself is usually questionable.
You're a healer 1st, so heal your team. Yes, I actually have to say this.
Position yourself so you can see everyone on your team, dont follow them 3ft behind Reinhardt like a headless chicken. I could write a whole page on where to stand as Ana tbh. If your team has bad positioning, tell them.
Having good aim helps, if you miss your teammates will probably die. Don't worry though, the friendly hitbox is very forgiving.
Congrats, you can now play the most versatile hero in the game.
Bad players will still shoot down a solo ulting Genji most of the time.
And a bad Roadhog can still get a pick on a good player because it doesn't require amazing skill to throw it in a crowd of players who were hiding behind a Reinhardt shield that's now broken.
We aren't even talking about bronze/silver players. We are talking about gold/platinum players who can at least aim and generally understand their hero's mechanics.
You should always balance heroes on how they operate at the top level of play because it will always trickle down. And since Blizzard have already set that precedent, they should really follow through with checking Roadhog along with a few other heroes.
Doug Heffernan
Member
Making Genjis's ult time equal to Zen's ult has been a godsend. I've shut down so many dragon blades. It always feels great.
Until you realize they were just using it to bait out transcendence
Newtype-001
Member
Mfw Genji main on team.
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Garrett Hawke
Member
that makes sense. but with 23 heroes, is that not pretty much impossible now?
that's a good point. balancing must be such a PITA, changes can have such long reaching knock on effects like this one.
Doug Heffernan
Member
I play solo queue, that never happens. lol
Blocked a genji ult and soon after my team got destroyed by Zarya/Pharah combo. I was so mad. But yeah, solo queue, don't think there was a big plan there, just Genji doing his thing the whole game. Cancelling genji ult is usually a pretty decent option
Kaffeemann
Banned
Bought a new mousepad, went 1-4. The mousepad is cursed!
Oh man i don't even have a mousepad. Maybe that would make me pro
I'd be interested in reading more about this. With my current positioning, friendlies tend to run in front of me and block shots that are meant for heroes that are further ahead. I'm afraid of finding high ground because I can't trust people to protect me from flankers.
I'm also often the only healer in the group (my quick play sessions seem to be full of groups who just constantly run to their deaths endlessly), so I'm guessing using the grenade for offensive purposes should be very rare?
I'm admittedly a complete scrub with this game, but reading through all this Roadhog talk has me thinking and wanting to add my $0.02.
I hadn't considered it until just now, but I feel like Hog's general kit is something that would have made more sense to split and incorporate into two separate heroes. On one hand, a hook user whose primary role is to disrupt enemy teams and pull prime targets out of position. On the other hand, a beefy tank with high health, self-healing for survivability, and heavy close-range burst damage, sort of a high-risk high-reward style. These are two characters who would synergize GREAT together...but should still require that synergy.
I'm fine with having the hook in game since positioning is so important, but I think finishing those pick-offs should take more coordination. Pull someone in and have another DPS nearby to help focus the target down, rather than a left-click being the only needed follow-up. That way the beef side of Hog would have to work a little harder and have better support in order to get enemies into his critical range.
Alternatively, and just spitballing an idea here, what if Blizzard removed some of the stun properties of the hook? Still prevent mobility skills obviously, but allow the target to still look about freely, fire shots, etc. That way Hog doesn't have an easy out to stop ultimates and would encourage hooking from sneakier locations and catching people unawares more often. If nothing else it could mean eating some last-ditch damage as the target gets pulled in and makes the hook feel a bit less "free."
I hadn't considered it until just now, but I feel like Hog's general kit is something that would have made more sense to split and incorporate into two separate heroes. On one hand, a hook user whose primary role is to disrupt enemy teams and pull prime targets out of position. On the other hand, a beefy tank with high health, self-healing for survivability, and heavy close-range burst damage, sort of a high-risk high-reward style. These are two characters who would synergize GREAT together...but should still require that synergy.
I'm fine with having the hook in game since positioning is so important, but I think finishing those pick-offs should take more coordination. Pull someone in and have another DPS nearby to help focus the target down, rather than a left-click being the only needed follow-up. That way the beef side of Hog would have to work a little harder and have better support in order to get enemies into his critical range.
Alternatively, and just spitballing an idea here, what if Blizzard removed some of the stun properties of the hook? Still prevent mobility skills obviously, but allow the target to still look about freely, fire shots, etc. That way Hog doesn't have an easy out to stop ultimates and would encourage hooking from sneakier locations and catching people unawares more often. If nothing else it could mean eating some last-ditch damage as the target gets pulled in and makes the hook feel a bit less "free."
Bumbletron
Member
Just go and watch Chipshajen VOD's on twitch. That should give you literally everything you need. There is also this one where you can watch the best Korean Ana play: https://www.reddit.com/r/Competitiv...ro_streams_of_knational_team_vs_apex_allstar/
That should give you a bunch of info on how to position
I really enjoy the versatility of Ana's kit; she has no mobility, but she can deny healing, boost healing, offer limited (though very effective) crowd control, heal an incredible amount of single-target damage from range, deal decent chip damage from range, and deal decent burst damage up close. Those 6 options are actually controlled by only 3 abilities, so she's easy to control. I think some of those options are too strong -- for example, there's hardly a reason to run Mercy if Ana heals just as much (if not more). But fundamentally, I love what she brings to the table, and I feel engaged when I play as her. I just wish her strengths didn't overshadow the rest of the healers -- especially Mercy.
When I play Roadhog, I only have to consider the hook+m1 combo and my spacing for reliable m2s. The question about when to attack and when to peel off to heal has basically the same answer as any other character (I'm hurt / I'm targeted / I'm reloading / I'm on cooldown / My team is gone -- better hide!), so to me, it's not an interesting or unique element of his playstyle. He's very effective and very shallow, and made even more powerful by Ana's strength as a single-target healer.
I don't mean to pick on Hog specifically; there are other heroes that I wish had more utility (such as Widowmaker). I also don't think the game would benefit from bloating every hero a laundry list of niche skills. It's tough to design a hero that feels deep but streamlined, and just as we see with Ana and Hog, it's possible for a hero to feel too strong regardless of how complex they are.
When I play Roadhog, I only have to consider the hook+m1 combo and my spacing for reliable m2s. The question about when to attack and when to peel off to heal has basically the same answer as any other character (I'm hurt / I'm targeted / I'm reloading / I'm on cooldown / My team is gone -- better hide!), so to me, it's not an interesting or unique element of his playstyle. He's very effective and very shallow, and made even more powerful by Ana's strength as a single-target healer.
I don't mean to pick on Hog specifically; there are other heroes that I wish had more utility (such as Widowmaker). I also don't think the game would benefit from bloating every hero a laundry list of niche skills. It's tough to design a hero that feels deep but streamlined, and just as we see with Ana and Hog, it's possible for a hero to feel too strong regardless of how complex they are.
RecRoulette
Member
Sorry if someone asked this earlier, but since the boxes for arcade reset tonight, should people wait until tomorrow to play arcade (after the Winter event launch) if they want 3 free winter boxes? Or do you think they'll reset again.
Eh, I need to see if Symmetra 2.0. can actually hold her weight. Hilarious video, though.
Yeah, sorry for not doing so hot during our session. I was struggling with Zarya, and I couldn't find synergy with the other picks.
I would wait for tomorrow, as there will be a better chance to obtain the Christmas items with those free boxes.
Considering the event starts on the same day I would just wait. It's free boxes.
Eh, I need to see if Symmetra 2.0. can actually hold her weight. Hilarious video, though.
Yeah, sorry for not doing so hot during our session. I was struggling with Zarya, and I couldn't find synergy with the other picks.
I would wait for tomorrow, as there will be a better chance to obtain the Christmas items with those free boxes.
Oh on KOTH yea it was fine our pharah wouldn't do hitscan and we were fucked. but on Hollywood it was a pure mess. Our ana couldn't heal to the point she went to mercy.
Hispanic! At the Disco
Member
Not sure how many of you play on Xbox but if any of you would add and play with my wife it would be greatly appreciated!
GT: kaayytteeee
She muted all but friends because whenever she tries communicating she gets harassed or creeps or really mean people, but she's tired of playing alone and we cant afford a second xbox.
She's level 61, been playing for 2 months, and mostly plays DVA and Junkrat. Sometimes Soldier, Reaper, or Mercy. Send her a message and let her know youre from Gaf!
GT: kaayytteeee
She muted all but friends because whenever she tries communicating she gets harassed or creeps or really mean people, but she's tired of playing alone and we cant afford a second xbox.
She's level 61, been playing for 2 months, and mostly plays DVA and Junkrat. Sometimes Soldier, Reaper, or Mercy. Send her a message and let her know youre from Gaf!
I told her youre all nice, so be nice! It's her first online game.
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