Support NeoGAF

[Not Spaceghost]

Yeah I get the obvious "if you can't aim don't pick sniper" but at the same time it's kind of weird that windowmaker is the only character I can think of that has that skill line that needs to be breached in order for her to be fun / useful.

You don't need to be a wizard to get a hero to be useful like you need to do with widowmaker, Even if you're not very good at aiming you can still get a lot done with mccree just because you have 6 powerful shots per magazine, the fan and the stun grenade to help you out. And because you're right up there in the action it means you have the full support of your tanks and healers when things go wrong.

Hanzo is also a sniper but you dont need to be particularly good at aiming to be good with him lol.

 

[MartyStu]

McCree is one of the more aiming intensive heroes, sure. Not his demand for precision is nothing fucking close to Widowmakers. There's no equivalent in terms of demand for precision for Widowmaker.

And more than that, if your not good aiming, you still have options. You can still stun. You can still fan the hammer. You still have Deadeye. If McCree can still work despite these filthy casual newb safety bumpers in place, I'm sure Widow can as well.

I think you are overlooking the fact that McCree proximity to the action means that being able to aim not only determines the value he brings to the team, but whether or not he stays alive.

Widow often gets a ton of chances to bring down her target before people start to hunt her. Missing on McCree means you are dead.

 

[ISOM]

Part of the problem with accurate Widows is that they require counterpicking and some coordination. This is often not an option in QP.

There is also the fact that if they are accurate enough, they can even be boring to have on your side.

Personally, I think sniping on widow should be be like sniping on Ana: something you do in between your real job. I am not sure what Blizzard can do to make this a thing.

Buff her assault rifle and give her right click a cooldown?

 

[Antiwhippy]

Yeah I get the obvious "if you can't aim don't pick sniper" but at the same time it's kind of weird that windowmaker is the only character I can think of that has that skill line that needs to be breached in order for her to be fun / useful.

You don't need to be a wizard to get a hero to be useful like you need to do with widowmaker, Even if you're not very good at aiming you can still get a lot done with mccree just because you have 6 powerful shots per magazine, the fan and the stun grenade to help you out. And because you're right up there in the action it means you have the full support of your tanks and healers when things go wrong.

Hanzo is also a sniper but you dont need to be particularly good at aiming to be good with him lol.

Uh you do honestly. I know tree logs is a meme but there's a reason for that. There's a lot more to projectile aiming than just lol spam. To actually be good with hanzo you need to aim.

I think the problem with this perception is that people with bad aim seem to enjoy playing hanzo anyway.

 

[MartyStu]

Buff her assault rifle and give her right click a cooldown?

Lol, as soon as I posted that I realized this.

Other changes:

-Reduce recharge of her abilities whenever she kills someone
-Mine as an auto-ability similar to Junkrat
-New ability

 

[Not Spaceghost]

I think the problem with this perception is that people with bad aim seem to enjoy playing hanzo anyway.

Right! And that's because his design isn't totally punishing if you're bad at aiming, you can still kinda get picks with the shatter arrow by having good game sense, same with the sonar arrow and ult. The difference between a hanzo that can aim and one that can't is immense but the fact is hanzo can still be fun if you can't aim very well, widowmaker just kinda isnt.

 

[Blues1990]

I really wish Torb's turret was more durable than it currently is. Just about everyone can melt it like it's nothing, regardless of how far away or when it's at maximum level.

 

[Anne]

I guess I'm gonna sound even more elitist than usual, but fuck it.

Widowmaker needs to land a single headshot to win an entire team fight. A single headshot and kill. If she hits two the fight is over. If she dumps damage into a tank or even body shots somebody to death the fight still ends. You don't need to be a magician to do that, it just takes a bit of aim. That aim I think anybody who spends a remote amount of time on hitscan can do at various levels. I'm really starting to think people playing Overwatch don't realize how forgiving hitscan is and that the aim part isn't really all that hard. A single hero that requires a bit more aim should be changed even though plenty of people outside of pro leagues can hit with her? Nah, fuck that.

Tbh the hardest part of playing Widowmaker is working with her on a team level and positioning post pick. Most Widow's don't do that, but if you only have average aim and can play fights well she's fine. I'd wager that most Widowmaker players aren't ass because they can't hti things, I See gold/plat Widows get double dinks even, but they don't know how to play the hero outside of that.

I think this really is a case of the git guds for most people. People have aim and mechanics, check out all the Genjis and McCrees and Tracers that murder people. Playing sniper is a bit different though, and a lot of people don't have the macro level down of how to play with that in this game.

What does Ana's absence from the meta have anything to do with Hanzo and Widowmaker?

Playing Widow into tank heavy teams is kinda eh. Her pick > play potential plummets when a character like Ana can bail a tank out post headshot, and also covers follow ups extremely well.

 

[Veelk]

I think you are overlooking the fact that McCree proximity to the action means that being able to aim not only determines the value he brings to the team, but whether or not he stays alive.

Widow often gets a ton of chances to bring down her target before people start to hunt her. Missing on McCree means you are dead.

I mean, that's a good point about McCree also being in more danger, but I disagree that he's more likely to survive than Widowmaker.

As soon as you know where Widowmaker is, it's extremely easy to flush her out. If you have a long range gun like Pharah's rockets, you can just shoot a few in her general direction. Worst case scenerio, she escapes with some damage, best case, she dies. And getting the shot on someone unaware his hard enough, it's way harder when they see you and can to react to you.

In contrast, sure, McCree needs to land his shots, but the fact that he's surrounded by his team means he's covered by a lot of people. That's why Ana, despite her lack of mobile ability, is far more survivable than Widow, the simple fact that she can stay with her group, who can heal her, block damage, etc. This gives him more chances to land his far easier to land shots than Widow has imo.

Tbh the hardest part of playing Widowmaker is working with her on a team level and positioning post pick. Most Widow's don't do that, but if you only have average aim and can play fights well she's fine. I'd wager that most Widowmaker players aren't ass because they can't hti things, I See gold/plat Widows get double dinks even, but they don't know how to play the hero outside of that.

I don't really see how you can play her other than that. Any close combat ability she has is pure ass, and maybe losing 2 players means a fight is over on a pro level, but it's not really the case in most games I play. I mean, sure, the more people you lose, the harder it gets to win, but sometimes single players pull out powerful plays that turn the conflict around. Wombo-combo with Zarya and Genji only require 2 players, after all.

But what is there for her to do other than snipe?

I think this really is a case of the git guds for most people. People have aim and mechanics, check out all the Genjis and McCrees and Tracers that murder people. Playing sniper is a bit different though, and a lot of people don't have the macro level down of how to play with that in this game.

Genji's, McCree's, and Tracers have mobility, significant damaging abilities, and highly damaging ults. Widowmaker's problem isn't that her sniping is shit, it's that she has nothing else to do.

 

[Antiwhippy]

I really wish Torb's turret was more durable than it currently is. Just about everyone can melt it like it's nothing, regardless of how far away or when it's at maximum level.

Yeah his scrap generation is nice, but that turretl pretty much becomes useless once a teamfight starts.

 

[Psychoward]

just got a FR from a dude after playing a game as Tracer


she's pretty easy to dominate in qp with, I consider myself average with her but against shitty players you can easily go an entire game without dying

 

[Anne]

I don't really see how you can play her other than that. Any close combat ability she has is pure ass, and maybe losing 2 players means a fight is over on a pro level, but it's not really the case in most games I play. I mean, sure, the more people you lose, the harder it gets to win, but sometimes single players pull out powerful plays that turn the conflict around. Wombo-combo with Zarya and Genji only require 2 players, after all.

But what is there for her to do other than snipe?

Pro level? People in Diamond know to push 5v6 and 4v6 like no problem from what I've seen.

Whenever Widow gets her initial picks and engages happen, she moves forward and takes that space to lock down even more of the fight and deal damage. People just don't do this for whatever reason at lower levels.

I get if you're like Bronze - Gold tier that might not be the case, but at that level balance matters a lot less over whether or not you can put a cursor on people or make the most basic combo plays.

Genji's, McCree's, and Tracers have mobility, significant damaging abilities, and highly damaging ults. Widowmaker's problem isn't that her sniping is shit, it's that she has nothing else to do.

Sniping is all she does, yeah, but the amount of impact her sniping has is insane.

 

[Antiwhippy]

Here in gold it depends if you actually have team chat honestly. Without team chat sometimes people know to push when a pick happens, sometimes they don't. I get real lazy sometimes and don't want to bother with talking to randoms on the internet, which leaves me rushing through the choke sometimes and find that I'm the only one there.

 

[Veelk]

Pro level? People in Diamond know to push 5v6 and 4v6 like no problem from what I've seen.

Whenever Widow gets her initial picks and engages happen, she moves forward and takes that space to lock down even more of the fight and deal damage. People just don't do this for whatever reason at lower levels.

I get if you're like Bronze - Gold tier that might not be the case, but at that level balance matters a lot less over whether or not you can put a cursor on people or make the most basic combo plays.

I'm diamond and I see nothing like that really. I mean, people just try to kill the enemy team any way they can. They only really stop and pull back if it's truly hopeless like they see the entire enemy team on the checkpoint with no one in sight, but that's not strategy, that's just common sense.

Idk. Whenever you describe the game, not only do I think that that isn't the game I play, that's not the game I want to play. Maybe it's just another difference from pc vs console.

Sniping is all she does, yeah, but the amount of impact her sniping has is insane.

Yeah, but that doesn't mean much when few to no one can land her hits on anything resembling consistency, atleast in my experience. The risk of not hitting the enemy team, when they can be fulfilling some other important role as another character, is soooooooooo not worth the extremely rare reward of getting that one pick.

Here in gold it depends if you actually have team chat honestly. Without team chat sometimes people know to push when a pick happens, sometimes they don't. I get real lazy sometimes and don't want to bother with talking to randoms on the internet, which leaves me rushing through the choke sometimes and find that I'm the only one there.

Yeah, that too, but that only brings me back to my general point that aiming isn't nearly as important in this game as everything else, even with aim intensive characters. Except for Widowmaker. And I feel that's the real problem here, and the solution to that is to buff her abilities so she can actually do shit other than snipe. Fuck, I'd be fine with bringing back the longer scope animation if she had some actually viable plays beyond sniping.

 

[Antiwhippy]

I think at this point we're talking about different stuff here really. Yes, she probably needs more help to make her more fun on consoles.

No, she should not be buffed on PC.

Problem is other than the torb/sym thing blizzard doesn't really care about balancing consoles separately.

 

[Veelk]

I think at this point we're talking about different stuff here really. Yes, she probably needs more help to make her more fun on consoles.

No, she should not be buffed on PC.

Problem is other than the torb/sym thing blizzard doesn't really care about balancing consoles separately.

Yeah. Which is weird, because Widowmaker is the character most affected by the PC-console transition.

 

[Nimby]

Junkrat wasn't used at all during IEM and MLG. Bastion was used 24 seconds.

 

[Anne]

Maybe it is just different games we're playing then. I see people hit shots consistently far below the pro level, I see teams make plays far below the pro level, and I see sensible picks/switches far below the pro level. All of this exists.

Like, Bronze-Plat I don't see all this I'll admit. Plat is where it sometimes kinda happens? But at that level balance and meta and all that matters a lot less. Straight up people aren't playing the game well enough for it to matter in most cases. If they did they'd certainly get better odds and improve, but that's not for everyone.

 

[Kito]

Add me to the 'delete Ana' club, biotic grenade is broken af. Don't let it heal Ana (she has sleep dart, she can find a fucking health pack whilst flanker sleeps) and reduce the +100% healing. Make it toggleable between affecting ally or enemy, because simultaneously and instantly doing up to 600 heal and up to 360 damage is ridiculous.

 

[Blues1990]

Yeah his scrap generation is nice, but that turret pretty much becomes useless once a teamfight starts.

Yeah, especially with how beefy everyone else is, I'm fine with the damage Torbjorn puts out for both his primary gun and his turret. Just make the damn thing tougher to compensate for the power that D.Va and Symmetra are putting out now.

 

[Kito]

Junkrat wasn't used at all during IEM and MLG. Bastion was used 24 seconds.

You can thank the halloween brawl for training us against his ult. RIP Junk. He is currently the best way to kill Sym tp/generator though.

 

[LurkerPrime]

I'm a QP person, but Widow seems fine to me. She's deadly in the right hands--I've seen ones that basically decide how a game goes on their own, through sheer accuracy. It's just a matter of knowing when to use her and when to switch out.

Like, no matter how good they are on their own, I can shut down them as Winston... and I'm far from a star player. The problem arises when they don't switch out, but just try to snipe from different locations or something; it just isn't going to work--Winston will get her.

It's kind of like the Bastion/Genji dynamic, where it's reckless to play one when the other is around.

Yeah, especially with how beefy everyone else is, I'm fine with the damage Torbjorn puts out for both his primary gun and his turret. Just make the damn thing tougher to compensate for the power that D.Va and Symmetra are putting out now.

Ehh... it really isn't meant to be anywhere near the front lines. It'd honestly be a problem in D.va couldn't dive back to it and solo it.

 

[Data West]

something funny about watching rampage jackson play mei

 

[Antiwhippy]

You can thank the halloween brawl for training us against his ult. RIP Junk. He is currently the best way to kill Sym tp/generator though.

Pros didn't need junkenstein to train against his ult. He's just not that great.

 

[Veelk]

Maybe it is just different games we're playing then. I see people hit shots consistently far below the pro level, I see teams make plays far below the pro level, and I see sensible picks/switches far below the pro level. All of this exists.

Like, Bronze-Plat I don't see all this I'll admit. Plat is where it sometimes kinda happens? But at that level balance and meta and all that matters a lot less. Straight up people aren't playing the game well enough for it to matter in most cases. If they did they'd certainly get better odds and improve, but that's not for everyone.

Well, I mean, people do that there too, but it's not something I regard as tactical or strategical. "Hey, that winston isn't working, maybe we need another DPS" "Yeah, sure, I'll try soldier I guess" is the extent to which I'm working with. But I've seen Genji's and Soldiers and Zarya's and so on that were impossible to put down. I've never seen a Widowmaker like that. Hell, I've seen Torbjorns that were a force to be reckoned with. But I've never, and I mean never, seen a Widowmaker that is able to hold the whole team down, despite having one of the strongest abilities in the game.

Regardless, I feel I should clear something up. I'm okay with things not being perfectly balanced. I feel that Blizzard should always strive for perfection, but I'm realistic and know that it's impossible to balance a 23 (and growing) different heroes completely. That's why I'm more or less happy with how Hanzo is right now, or Junkrat, even though their not ever picked for pro tournaments or anything like that. Heroes like Sombra could use adjusting, but their not worthless or anything.

Widowmaker, in my experience, is worthless right now. She's just THAT bad. But when I say I want her buffed, I don't mean I want Blizzard to do what they did with Zenyatta and go way overboard. I just want her to be useful to some extent. And it just seems the best way to do this is to give her some kind of use other than sniping. It just seems to make sense to me, in this game with all these characters having varied abilities, that she should have some flexibility as well.

 

[Blues1990]

Ehh... it really isn't meant to be anywhere near the front lines. It'd honestly be a problem in D.va couldn't dive back to it and solo it.

I know, but placement isn't the issue. I always make sure that his turret is at a safe, but accessible, distance from the choke-points. The problem (as Whippy has already mentioned) is Torbjorn's turret becomes next to useless in a firefight, as it isn't durable enough to survive most encounters. It doesn't matter how close or far away it is, as 90% of the cast can wear it down without much fuss.

 

[Bumbletron]

Gonna stream master level tank play in a bit if anyone is interested. https://www.twitch.tv/mattz2007

Anne on DPS is gonna stream at https://www.twitch.tv/anneifrank

 

[Laputa_94]

Played for the first time in weeks to do my placements. Despite it being my worst set placements matches I came out with around 3200-3300. Makes me wonder if I can get to master this season.

 

[Anne]

Gonna stream master level tank play in a bit if anyone is interested. https://www.twitch.tv/mattz2007

Anne on DPS is gonna stream at https://www.twitch.tv/AnneiFrank

My stream features Carly Rae at least :v

 

[Blizzard]

On the bright side, I had a 3-gold competitive game with D.Va. Gold damage, gold 50 elims, and that was with stopping the other team before the first cap of Hollywood.

On the AWFUL side, I got my second legendary drop of the winter event. Once again, it wasn't a winter skin, and it was for a champ I hardly ever play. I got the Zarya skin (augh) but at least I also got the Reaper winter skin. ;___;

 

[Data West]

Do they have QP stats?

Because yeah they're going to have to do something about Torb/Sym. It's in every single QP game now on defense and its zero risk high reward


and I was against Winston getting a damage buff and wanted him to only have a survival buff but given the state of DVa, 76, and 'no one fucking dies anymore' meta with both tanks and SymTorb then maybe Winston does need a damage buff cause I dont see them reverting all that

 

[Psychoward]

the other night a rein charged me as D.Va right when I ejected, he carried my bodyless meka in to the abyss and died while I survived

poor guy

 

[Moonkid]

I think I'm confident I can reach Diamond but a few awry matches put me in the late 2800s again.

just got a FR from a dude after playing a game as Tracer


she's pretty easy to dominate in qp with, I consider myself average with her but against shitty players you can easily go an entire game without dying

Tracer still alludes me although I really wanna git gud with her next on the attack roster. I imagine the sensitivity needs to be way up?

 

[Psychoward]

I think I'm confident I can reach Diamond but a few awry matches put me in the late 2800s again.Tracer still alludes me although I really wanna git gud with her next on the attack roster. I imagine the sensitivity needs to be way up?

I have every hero except Winston's sensitivity at default on PS4.

 

[Moonkid]

I have every hero except Winston's sensitivity at default on PS4.

Is that 50/50? I can't remember. I play with 47 32 on most heroes, though it used to be waaay lower on like 20/20.

 

[Anne]

Climbed up to 3.8k on stream tonight. Whoop whoop.

 

[Bumbletron]

at 3750 now, gm is looking totally doable at this point

 

[caesar]

Maybe it is just different games we're playing then. I see people hit shots consistently far below the pro level, I see teams make plays far below the pro level, and I see sensible picks/switches far below the pro level. All of this exists.

Like, Bronze-Plat I don't see all this I'll admit. Plat is where it sometimes kinda happens? But at that level balance and meta and all that matters a lot less. Straight up people aren't playing the game well enough for it to matter in most cases. If they did they'd certainly get better odds and improve, but that's not for everyone.

I think he's on console, no sane PC player would ask for this.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Climbed up to 3.8k on stream tonight. Whoop whoop.

Watched a little of your stream earlier. Really good stuff and enjoyed the games. Nice playing and comms.

 

[Anne]

I think he's on console, no sane PC player would ask for this.

True. Buff Widow for console then, but please don't let any kind of buff get near her on PC.

Watched a little of your stream earlier. Really good stuff and enjoyed the games. Nice playing and comms.

Thank yous~ I'm gonna try to do it more often and step up quality in some spots.

 

[MarioHead3]

Played for the first time in weeks to do my placements. Despite it being my worst set placements matches I came out with around 3200-3300. Makes me wonder if I can get to master this season.

I have to apologize for the hell I put you through tonight.

I feel like my MMR is completely fucked.

 

[Anne]

I'm watching the Challengers qualifying bracket for OGN APEX S2. Luxury Watch Red are playing against Runaway. LW Red are actually getting their shit stomped right now too >_>

https://www.twitch.tv/ognglobal

Going from winning IEM to not qualifying for APEX would be some shit.

 

[Antiwhippy]

They also previously got stomped by runaway which made them not qualify for the previous OGN too.

edit: though the one that won IEM was luxury watch blue + nanohana.

 

[Anne]

I really think LW should just restructure and move Nanohana and a couple others into the Blue slot permanently and scrap most of their red team.

 

[Antiwhippy]

Which is really weird, because the last time I saw pine and awesomeguy they were seriously awesome.

I dunno, maybe runaway just got the wood over them. Did them in last season, did them in again this season.

 

[Data West]

Symmetra and 76 are both better Reapers than Reaper now

 

[GraveRobberX]

So I somehow and blacked out and zoned into my inner Dew's & Doritos D.VA

Jesus, I know I'm never having a game like that ever again lol

I was Pharah, but then I saw an enemy Pharah, Bastion, and Roadhog
We had no Reinhardt or 2 healers, I took the swap and got a Ranked win
Feel good to protect your teammates andcsaving there ass

 

[ISOM]

Symmetra and 76 are both better Reapers than Reaper now

Yet Envy ran Reaper yesterday and owned with it. I think people are underusing Reaper a bit in this meta.

 

[Antiwhippy]

Also wait, how does sym and reaper even compare to each other?

 

[Anne]

Probably a bit. He's not bad, but it is very difficult to run him right now.