A Dead Diehard
Member
I agree with you. Margaret isn't certifiably insane.
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Persona Community Thread |OT6| Where 6 Comes Before 5 (No PQ or P4U spoilers!)
- Thread starter Dantis
- Start date
I agree with you. Margaret isn't certifiably insane.
I was just talking about their skin. Those crackers are paaaaaale.
I have the unfortunate circumstance of being related to a Juffalo so that's not true.
Don't worry, I agree. (At least on Marge vs. Elly, I like the Green Titania better)
And don't take anything we say too seriously. We're a bunch of nutters ourselves.
Indeed. I have amended my post accordingly with a video to the reference in question.
Xenoflare
Member
Inquisitive_Ghost
Member
Yeah, I caught that before you edited. I get it now.
Xenoflare
Member
We'll get Theodore in it too, which is nice.
Edit: Remember all dem speculations
on P4AU's story and P3mc and how disappointing in the end P4AU's story turned out? :[
A Dead Diehard
Member
Interesting how Elizabeth's involvement in Ultimax was what I was most interested in, yet ended up being the parts I cared for the least. (Not even really hate, just a disappointed "Seriously..?")
Xenoflare
Member
Well, I don't think that's totally right.
P4A(U) spoilers:
Elizabeth pretty much had two major plot points associated with her in P4A (and, really, maybe only one depending on whatever the canon route is supposed to be): helping Labrys come to terms with who she actually is and gaining her own arcana upon coming to realize, at least a bit more, what the true nature of bonds are.
In P4AU,
she pretty much still has the support role since she was crucial for Rise's Persona evolution, but I agree that her gaining The Fool amounted to literally nothing, in the end, which is disappointing. It was one of the hypest moments in P4A, but it didn't pay off.
There's a bunch of that in P4AU, actually. I thought the story was better than P4A's and was good until the ending sequence, but there's still some stuff like why exactly the transformed Yasogami High looks exactly like Tartarus' lobby that weren't really answered. One element that almost feels like a plot hole to me is the fact that
Sho was somehow present in Inaba when the P4 story went down and probably even attended Yasogami High, yet he was never seen anywhere?
A lot of P4AU's "problems" could probably be linked to our expectations, and how all of the game's marketing had built the narrative up to be something grandiose, when it actually fell flat. This might be an aspect that favors P4D, since there won't be great expectations regarding that game's story since it isn't a direct sequel to something (kinda) and they haven't really promoted the story facet of the game as heavily (yet).
A Dead Diehard
Member
Arena and Ultimax spoilers.
Well... her 'help' with Labrys didn't seem to stick, considering she still had a major breakdown when she was revealed. I still refuse to see Rise's 'evolution' as anything but an asspull. And that 'yet another manifestation of those that wish for death' thing was pretty much Atlus going "Yeeeeah... we'll do it next time, maybe."
Cause let's be honest, the instant she finishes that quest, there's nothing left to do with these characters.
Cause let's be honest, the instant she finishes that quest, there's nothing left to do with these characters.
But that's pretty much what I mean; those were really the only things Elizabeth contributed to the respective stories, other than maybe counting the fact that she's essentially a party crasher in P4A and General Teddie and the Malevolent Entity weren't too pleased by that.
I'm taking P4AU as a confirmation that Elizabeth's quest is meant to be sisyphean. That seemed to be the game where everything was converging to maybe do something big with it, but since nothing occurred, I don't think P Studio actually wants to do something with it. It could be used as a driving force for further stories, but I don't believe it will ever amount to anything.
Since my Persona Cosplayer's waffle house run is now official, I've decided to make some promo material for the event:
If you haven't wound up drunk at a Waffle House at 2 in the morning with no idea how you got there, then you haven't lived correctly. Or maybe it's the opposite and you have lived correctly.
A Dead Diehard
Member
Well, then it's their own damn fault for suggesting it!
Who knows, maybe it'll happen when P5 comes out and overwrought speeches about bonds get replaced with overwrought speeches about freedom...
To be fair to them, despite the hints since P4, she does explicitly state that it may take decades/centuries to fulfill the quest and it might not even happen, ever. In retrospect, that's important, and it's probably been reiterated to tell us that it's not something that will ever occur, but was a reason to tie Elizabeth together with anything that could come in the future (maybe also just as a way to show how much
P3MC touched the life of someone who oversees power as a Velvet Room member?
It could have a place in P5 considering that, but only a really small one that wouldn't lead to anything significant, akin to P4's reference.
buddha0991
Member
P3/P4AU spoilers:
I am so damn glad they never actually brought Makoto back to life here or even attempted it.
A Dead Diehard
Member
I was almost convinced that was the case in first place and
i'm really glad I ended up being right.
I would cringe so bad if that ever happened.
Ultimax's story looks like a bad fanfiction for me tbh, I'm worried about DAN.
A Dead Diehard
Member
You make me sad, PK.
My personal take on it, and why I think people who expect something to come of it are misguided on multiple levels, is this. (Big P3 spoilers, obviously.)
There's two key facts we know for sure about Elizabeth's quest. One, the reason the P3 MC is stuck sealing the door away is because Erebus, the manifestation of humanity's desire for destruction, keeps regenerating and has to be contained. Two, as Flux mentioned, she's explicitly said that it may take eons to accomplish.
From those two facts, I draw a few conclusions. P4A shows that Elizabeth has no problem trouncing Erebus solo, and seems to return to the Great Seal every so often to do it again because it amuses her. Elizabeth is massively powerful--her title is "one who rules over power," in fact--yet for all her strength she can't put Erebus away permanently. The reason for this is because Elizabeth is using the wrong kind of power to attack the problem. She's focused on the symptom--destroying Erebus--and doesn't yet understand the underlying disease of humanity's self-destructive nature, because Elizabeth isn't human. So long as the disease exists, the symptom will never fully go away.
So how is she supposed to attack the disease? Well, Elizabeth doesn't know yet. But the point of her witnessing the power that the P4 MC derives from his bonds is to give her some hazy, tentative understanding that there are other kinds of strength than brute force. If anything can ultimately destroy Erebus, it's not the flashy Persona attacks the P4 MC is busting out in his battles with her, but the love and compassion underlying them. To truly accept oneself, as the P4 crew all has, and to abandon self-hatred and self-destruction--that's what's going to win the war against Erebus.
Mind you, since Erebus is the manifestation of all of humanity's self-destructive tendencies, that's a big problem to solve. Elizabeth is nowhere close to achieving that, particularly since she's still getting used to having her own sense of self at all. (As an aside, I think the next big step on Elizabeth's quest would actually be a negative one; she'd have to personally experience the self-negating desire in order to fully understand it, and from there learn how to cast it aside for herself.)
But you can help her. We all can, and that, in my personal opinion, is the real point of Elizabeth's journey, and why I ultimately think people itching to see a "resolution" to her quest in some game or another are on the wrong track. Unlike Elizabeth, we are human, and we know the self-destructive streak for what it is. If you really want to see the P3 MC revived that badly, look within yourself, as the P4 cast has, and contribute what you can to bettering your own self--and then to better those around you.
From those two facts, I draw a few conclusions. P4A shows that Elizabeth has no problem trouncing Erebus solo, and seems to return to the Great Seal every so often to do it again because it amuses her. Elizabeth is massively powerful--her title is "one who rules over power," in fact--yet for all her strength she can't put Erebus away permanently. The reason for this is because Elizabeth is using the wrong kind of power to attack the problem. She's focused on the symptom--destroying Erebus--and doesn't yet understand the underlying disease of humanity's self-destructive nature, because Elizabeth isn't human. So long as the disease exists, the symptom will never fully go away.
So how is she supposed to attack the disease? Well, Elizabeth doesn't know yet. But the point of her witnessing the power that the P4 MC derives from his bonds is to give her some hazy, tentative understanding that there are other kinds of strength than brute force. If anything can ultimately destroy Erebus, it's not the flashy Persona attacks the P4 MC is busting out in his battles with her, but the love and compassion underlying them. To truly accept oneself, as the P4 crew all has, and to abandon self-hatred and self-destruction--that's what's going to win the war against Erebus.
Mind you, since Erebus is the manifestation of all of humanity's self-destructive tendencies, that's a big problem to solve. Elizabeth is nowhere close to achieving that, particularly since she's still getting used to having her own sense of self at all. (As an aside, I think the next big step on Elizabeth's quest would actually be a negative one; she'd have to personally experience the self-negating desire in order to fully understand it, and from there learn how to cast it aside for herself.)
But you can help her. We all can, and that, in my personal opinion, is the real point of Elizabeth's journey, and why I ultimately think people itching to see a "resolution" to her quest in some game or another are on the wrong track. Unlike Elizabeth, we are human, and we know the self-destructive streak for what it is. If you really want to see the P3 MC revived that badly, look within yourself, as the P4 cast has, and contribute what you can to bettering your own self--and then to better those around you.
I didn't expect anything to happen precisely because that point had been mentioned before. Never mind the Chekhov's gun regarding Aigis (P4A spoiler)
whom Elizabeth outright states will be compatriot of hers in the future.
Nich was pretty much spot on regarding every single detail about it.
names2hard4you
Member
What Nich has said I agree with 100%. As much as I'd love seeing
, it would just totally demolish the whole point behind the game's conclusion and ultimately, moral of the story. They would have to make it work, and not just plead to everyone's request of
, or else it would just end up being phoned in.
I think the very fact that the conclusion is the way it is, is why Persona 3 is for me why it will always be something that I will never forget. The depth and weight of it all is just enormous.
Makoto come back
bringing him back
I think the very fact that the conclusion is the way it is, is why Persona 3 is for me why it will always be something that I will never forget. The depth and weight of it all is just enormous.
(P3 Spoilers)
Makoto's ultimate fate doesn't have much to do with the theme of the game. Yes, the theme is everything dies and everything changes, and yet you have Makoto ending up as part of something he'll never escape and remain trapped in for eternity. How the hell does that jive with the theme of the game? 
I think a lot of these strong feelings about wanting to see Elizabeth succeed hinge on this fact of it. If you don't have the Answer showing what it shows, and you just think Makoto sacrificed himself to cast the Seal and then dies later because of it, not sure you'd get the same outpouring of support for Elizabeth. It's not bringing him back from the dead per se, but just to free his soul. I kind of think the Answer took away some of the good of the original P3 ending. /shrug
I think a lot of these strong feelings about wanting to see Elizabeth succeed hinge on this fact of it. If you don't have the Answer showing what it shows, and you just think Makoto sacrificed himself to cast the Seal and then dies later because of it, not sure you'd get the same outpouring of support for Elizabeth. It's not bringing him back from the dead per se, but just to free his soul. I kind of think the Answer took away some of the good of the original P3 ending. /shrug
TheMrPliskin
Member
P3/P4U Spoilers:
I've always had an issue with the idea of bringing the MC back, I'd be ok releasing him from the seal but bringing him back would just feel like it was done to appease the fans who have asked for him to be revived which is a bad reason to just throw everything from P3 out the window. If you release him from the seal then at least at that point he's gone for good and people just have to deal with it, but if they were to do this it obviously needs to be done right.
As for people hoping P4U would resolve this stuff, it's not hard to see why people might think that. The amount of references to it it P4A certainly could be seen as hints to something being done about it in the near future and when the sequel has the whole P3 cast I can see why people could think it's the perfect place to conclude this stuff. To me it seemed like the P4A stuff was just a wink and nod while also serving as an excuse to have elizabeth in the game.
As for people hoping P4U would resolve this stuff, it's not hard to see why people might think that. The amount of references to it it P4A certainly could be seen as hints to something being done about it in the near future and when the sequel has the whole P3 cast I can see why people could think it's the perfect place to conclude this stuff. To me it seemed like the P4A stuff was just a wink and nod while also serving as an excuse to have elizabeth in the game.
I always irks me when someone says that the reason things like,
Makoto reviving, Chidori coming back or Shinji being saved(Though I could care less about that one) would somehow cheapen and betray the "theme" of Persona 3. Often because it seems to me like people take the theme of Persona 3 a little too much at face-value or factor it in too heavily into the story than it really is.
I'd like to think that theme of P3, at it's is "Death", but not in the sense that people need to die and accept that they need to die and everyone will die---I mean, that kind of backsides the whole 4th quarter of the game as well as a part of The Answer. I follow more along the lines of the tarot card--not essentially "death" death, but moreso an irreversible change of events that may include death. To me, the theme is less about the physical act of dying and more about overcoming the impact of such "deaths" in their lives, rather than wallowing and angsting about it forever. The game also intently expresses a message that while death is an inevitability, that doesn't mean that one should rush to that inevitability. You have to truly value the life you have for as long you have it.
Tying back into P4A/U, as Meia said, I think , no matter what, there's kind of a difference between dying, and having your soul trapped inside a door for eternity being hammered on by an overgrown Girafarig. While I do think that fully resurrecting Makoto would cheapen the overall story of Persona in other aspects, I don't think there's really any reason for his fate to simply be "And then his soul was trapped in a door forever, where no one could hear him scream." Saying he was a sacrifice for us and all the Biblical overtones that may or may not fully be there is kind of silly considering, you know, even Jesus in the myths actually "died".
I'd also go into depth about how it wouldn't be a bad thing for Chidori to actually have revived and that it's in fact very plausible for her to be alive at this point without "betraying the game's theme", but I don't want to type another 3 paragraphs at 9 am in the morning.
I'd like to think that theme of P3, at it's is "Death", but not in the sense that people need to die and accept that they need to die and everyone will die---I mean, that kind of backsides the whole 4th quarter of the game as well as a part of The Answer. I follow more along the lines of the tarot card--not essentially "death" death, but moreso an irreversible change of events that may include death. To me, the theme is less about the physical act of dying and more about overcoming the impact of such "deaths" in their lives, rather than wallowing and angsting about it forever. The game also intently expresses a message that while death is an inevitability, that doesn't mean that one should rush to that inevitability. You have to truly value the life you have for as long you have it.
Tying back into P4A/U, as Meia said, I think , no matter what, there's kind of a difference between dying, and having your soul trapped inside a door for eternity being hammered on by an overgrown Girafarig. While I do think that fully resurrecting Makoto would cheapen the overall story of Persona in other aspects, I don't think there's really any reason for his fate to simply be "And then his soul was trapped in a door forever, where no one could hear him scream." Saying he was a sacrifice for us and all the Biblical overtones that may or may not fully be there is kind of silly considering, you know, even Jesus in the myths actually "died".
I'd also go into depth about how it wouldn't be a bad thing for Chidori to actually have revived and that it's in fact very plausible for her to be alive at this point without "betraying the game's theme", but I don't want to type another 3 paragraphs at 9 am in the morning.
(P3 Spoilers)
Makoto's ultimate fate doesn't have much to do with the theme of the game. Yes, the theme is everything dies and everything changes, and yet you have Makoto ending up as part of something he'll never escape and remain trapped in for eternity. How the hell does that jive with the theme of the game?
I think a lot of these strong feelings about wanting to see Elizabeth succeed hinge on this fact of it. If you don't have the Answer showing what it shows, and you just think Makoto sacrificed himself to cast the Seal and then dies later because of it, not sure you'd get the same outpouring of support for Elizabeth. It's not bringing him back from the dead per se, but just to free his soul. I kind of think the Answer took away some of the good of the original P3 ending. /shrug
Theme of the game = accepting the finality of death
Makoto being gone forever is an extension of that. Even if he's a seal, for all intents and purposes, he's completely dead. I do agree with your point regarding The Answer. I did not think that Erebus plot point was necessary at all.
Makoto being gone forever is an extension of that. Even if he's a seal, for all intents and purposes, he's completely dead. I do agree with your point regarding The Answer. I did not think that Erebus plot point was necessary at all.
A Dead Diehard
Member
Well, I guess I'm just a sap, then...
EDIT: Welcome, Zyrox!
EDIT: Welcome, Zyrox!
Hello everyone,
I just got my account activated on GAF. After about 4 years of lurking,I'm finally here \o/
I lurked PersonaGAF since the first thread pretty much, and was also in the chat a couple times. I played Persona 2 IS, a bit of Persona 2 EP, Persona 3 FES, P3P, Persona 4 Golden, and Persona 4 Arena. And now I obviously look forward to all the new titles (still have to get Ultimax, love P4A but P4AU came out at an unfortunate time for me...).
Anyway, I look forward to be a part of the community here.
I just got my account activated on GAF. After about 4 years of lurking,I'm finally here \o/
I lurked PersonaGAF since the first thread pretty much, and was also in the chat a couple times. I played Persona 2 IS, a bit of Persona 2 EP, Persona 3 FES, P3P, Persona 4 Golden, and Persona 4 Arena. And now I obviously look forward to all the new titles (still have to get Ultimax, love P4A but P4AU came out at an unfortunate time for me...).
Anyway, I look forward to be a part of the community here.
Vox Chaotica
Member
Welcome, Zyrox.
~Remember that you're here forever~
~Remember that you're here forever~
Oh, hey dude! Welcome!
Welcome! As always, remember the one important thing about PersonaGAF:
You're here forever.
LelouchViBritannia
Member
Hell yeah man, welcome to the madhouse. As always......................................................................
buddha0991
Member
P4AU's story was fine.
A Dead Diehard
Member
Your avatar looks like a rabbit. Is that just me?
You know what. It was. Just not the grand conclusion a good deal of us were expecting.
Nothing special, but serviceable.
A Dead Diehard
Member
Still want to know what the heck Aigis means by "poink"ing here. I can't find a definition and it apparently involves her head. >_>;
Also Hi Zyrox.
Maybe it's an onomatopoeia? Maybe used in the same context as 'doik' or 'boop'?
Ganzlinger
Member
Believe it or not I was pretty relived that in Ultimax
Final Fantasy X spoilers:
Joss Whedon once said "Never give the fans what they want", and I agree with that for the most part. P3's ending is powerful, it resonates with people for a reason. It saw out it's ultimate message to the very end, no compromising.
Elizebeth's quest to free Makoto never really went anywhere. Still firmly of the opinion that bringing him back ultimately would just be fan service, and would nullify the ending--and the whole message of Persona 3. Even if it's just to put his soul at rest so he doesn't have to suffer, it would again ultimately be nothing but fan service. There's no need to see him again, his story is over.
Final Fantasy X spoilers:
Anyone that's played FFX and FFX-2 knows that a similar fate was had there. Where a Tidus was brought back to life in X-2 with not only no explanation, but just to make the fans happy.
Joss Whedon once said "Never give the fans what they want", and I agree with that for the most part. P3's ending is powerful, it resonates with people for a reason. It saw out it's ultimate message to the very end, no compromising.
It's a beautiful story that clings to the notion that in life we don't all get happy hollywood endings.
A Dead Diehard
Member
Well, I guess that explains it.
I would actually approve of Elizabeth succeeding because a great deal of P3 just rings hollow to me as hamfisted melodrama.
However, the fact remains that
the seal only prevents The Fall. The real problem is Erebus and the mentality that manifests it. If Makoto was saved after Erebus was vanquished for good, I wouldn't see it as shallow fanservice. He still bought time to find a solution to the core problem.
EDIT:
Also,
#CoulsonLives
I'd still have preferred if we didn't have the Answer give us an ending akin to (PSP HORROR GAME SPOILERS)
Corpse Party.
Don't see it as melodramatic at all. The point was, or at least what I derived from the theme was
that death is a natural part of life, and it can come at any moment. All we can do is accept it.
MiguelMexMIstery
Member
If I remember right Pepsiman translated it as removing parts of her body.Still want to know what the heck Aigis means by "poink"ing here. I can't find a definition and it apparently involves her head. >_>;
Also Hi Zyrox.
A Dead Diehard
Member
You have a point. Then again,
Makoto's case doesn't really count as 'death', does it? More like a lonely eternity of being pummelled.
Indeed. You're right. So it must be the onomatopoeia for removing a body part.... o_o