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PoliGAF 2012 Community Thread

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J

Jackson50

Member
Kad5 said:
I'm looking for sources and facts...
Click to expand...
Your search should begin and end with Newt's qualification of child labor laws as "truly stupid." Also, did your friend post on GAF under the screen name "A27_StarWolf?"
Chichikov said:
I don't like it.
Obamacare is a problematic bill, there's plenty wrong with it, yeah, it's better than the alternative, but presenting it like it's a liberal's idea to how healthcare should work in this country is not smart.
Even from a practical standpoint this is not smart.
This is just like the stimulus.
Click to expand...
True. It's a deficient policy, and there are superior alternatives. But in our fair country the alternative is to scuttle even the modest reforms of the PPACA. I have no trepidation about defending this bill. Of course, I usually qualify my support by noting there are superior alternatives.
 
S

Snake

Member
Chichikov said:
It still heavily rely on private, for profit insurance, and it doesn't do enough to control cost.
Also, it for the most part kept healthcare as a work benefit, which is also something I don't support.
Click to expand...

Those factors do not mean that it is "not a liberal's idea to how healthcare should work in this country." It's just not your idea, or a perfect idea.

I'd prefer single payer obviously, but going on the strong regulation path to UHC like Germany/Switzerland is certainly not the end of the world, and it's not what conservatives want either. It may be incrementalist and cost more, but ten years from now the health insurance industry will be de facto nationalized, and we will be at a point politically where it is unavoidable to regulate healthcare providers to keep costs down. As a liberal, I'm happy about that, and I don't understand the need to pretend that I am detached or that "we could have done better" is a relevant message to perpetuate.
 
S

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
Hokuten said:
Those factors do not mean that it is "not a liberal's idea to how healthcare should work in this country." It's just not your idea, or a perfect idea.

I'd prefer single payer obviously, but going on the strong regulation path to UHC like Germany/Switzerland is certainly not the end of the world, and it's not what conservatives want either. It may be incrementalist and cost more, but ten years from now the health insurance industry will be de facto nationalized, and we will be at a point politically where it is unavoidable to regulate healthcare providers to keep costs down. As a liberal, I'm happy about that, and I don't understand the need to pretend that I am detached or that "we could have done better" is a relevant message to perpetuate.
Click to expand...

Typically liberals would want a good NHS style setup. The end. Single payer is an abstract of that, not a replication of it. Insurance companies exacerbate and create most of the problems with our existing situation. We're an international joke and we deserve to be mocked. The sheer number of Americans who cannot fathom this is spectacular. We are basically the only country that operates like this, and we should be ashamed.

The fact that the right wing is busy trying to replicate this system for our public schools should be a matter of national outrage, but people don't really care or pay attention.
 
C

Chichikov

Member
Hokuten said:
Those factors do not mean that it is "not a liberal's idea to how healthcare should work in this country." It's just not your idea, or a perfect idea.
Click to expand...
I don't want to get into an overly semantic discussion here, so let me try and be clearer -
Before Obamacare, I have not heard many (or any) liberals supporting such approach.
In fact, this is a system that was in large part conceived as a conservative alternative to Clintoncare.

Hokuten said:
I'd prefer single payer obviously, but going on the strong regulation path to UHC like Germany/Switzerland is certainly not the end of the world, and it's not what conservatives want either. It may be incrementalist and cost more, but ten years from now the health insurance industry will be de facto nationalized, and we will be at a point politically where it is unavoidable to regulate healthcare providers to keep costs down. As a liberal, I'm happy about that, and I don't understand the need to pretend that I am detached or that "we could have done better" is a relevant message to perpetuate.
Click to expand...
The health insurance industry pretty much got everything they wanted in that bill, what make you think that congress will move next to effectively eliminate them?
Now again, don't get me wrong, I'm a realist, and I understand that such changes usually take time and many iterations, but that just change the fact that in my mind, even with a fully implement PPACA, the US still has an embarrassing healthcare system, and as a liberal, I will keep on saying that, even when a democrat is in the white house.

OuterWorldVoice said:
Typically liberals would want a good NHS style setup. The end. Single payer is an abstract of that, not a replication of it. Insurance companies exacerbate and create most of the problems with our existing situation. We're an international joke and we deserve to be mocked. The sheer number of Americans who cannot fathom this is spectacular. We are basically the only country that operates like this, and we should be ashamed.

The fact that the right wing is busy trying to replicate this system for our public schools should be a matter of national outrage, but people don't really care or pay attention.
Click to expand...
There's a difference between a single payer and a nationalized healthcare system, and in my mind, not a small one.
I'm not sure that I prefer an NHS to a single payer.
I think there are other ways than nationalization to decouple the profit motive from health providers (which I think should be a very high priority).
 
J

jamesinclair

Banned
The Obama economy is failing real-america

18je1ASt8.gif
 
S

Snake

Member
Chichikov said:
In fact, this is a system that was in large part conceived as a conservative alternative to Clintoncare.
Click to expand...
I think this is overstated by liberals, originally as an argument to persuade conservatives and later assimilated into the discourse as a fact. Republicans in the '90s didn't want anything like what was passed in 2010 (and in fact didn't want to pass anything when they had the chance), and Romneycare didn't address regulation of the industry or subsidies nearly as much as Obamacare (not to mention it was passed in a liberal state, and not by overriding conservative influence). I find that the comparisons are usually quite weak.

Chichikov said:
The health insurance industry pretty much got everything they wanted in that bill,
Click to expand...

Not really. They stalled, for now, a public health insurance option and got a lot of new customers. These customers do not mean as much, however, since the insurers are being regulated in order that most of the money they take in needs to be spent on treatment rather than profits. Not too much more needs to be done before these insurers are no longer for-profit entities. All of this would take legislation of a smaller scope than what was passed in 2010.

Chichikov said:
what make you think that congress will move next to effectively eliminate them?
Click to expand...

The whole point of this approach is that Congress does not need to eliminate them. They are private companies, increasingly regulated through state policies to provide a public good. State capitalism rather than socialism, but for the same goal. What is drying up is the profit motive in this sector of the economy, though a few more strong pushes will still be necessary to take this to the end zone. In the meantime, the existing bureaucratic structures of the industry are going to stay around (preserving those jobs and reducing the fears of people in those industries). This will unfortunately retain inefficiency and preserve certain costs, but I can't say this is my #1 concern as long as the state begins paying for the healthcare of all Americans.

It's kind of funny that I'm backed into the apologist corner, considering that I dealt with years of hell with a health insurance company when my father had cancer (and developed a seething hatred of these kinds of companies), but intellectually I find that the progress which we have made is underrated and serially dismissed.

To be clear, I agree that we have an embarassing healthcare system in this country, and I don't object to criticism of its failings.
 
empty vessel

empty vessel

Member
Hokuten said:
Not really. They stalled, for now, a public health insurance option and got a lot of new customers. These customers do not mean as much, however, since the insurers are being regulated in order that most of the money they take in needs to be spent on treatment rather than profits. Not too much more needs to be done before these insurers are no longer for-profit entities. All of this would take legislation of a smaller scope than what was passed in 2010.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, the rise in health care costs isn't really attributable to health insurance companies. Insurance profit margins aren't terribly large.

It's the growth of investor-owned, for-profit health care companies that are causing most of the problems. And pharmaceutical companies, of course.
 
J

Jackson50

Member
jamesinclair said:
The Obama economy is failing real-america

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/jamesinclair/Fresno/18je1ASt8.gif
Click to expand...
Ugly graph. Gelman would be pissed.
Learn2read said:
Obama meets Hawaiian woman, asks to see her birth certificate
Click to expand...
Love it.
Black Republican said:
is there gonna be a thread for the LA primary or just post here?
Click to expand...
Only a few people posted Tuesday on the Illinois results. And I doubt more will care about Louisiana. I don't think a separate thread is necessary.
 
O

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
Hokuten said:
I think this is overstated by liberals, originally as an argument to persuade conservatives and later assimilated into the discourse as a fact. Republicans in the '90s didn't want anything like what was passed in 2010 (and in fact didn't want to pass anything when they had the chance), and Romneycare didn't address regulation of the industry or subsidies nearly as much as Obamacare (not to mention it was passed in a liberal state, and not by overriding conservative influence). I find that the comparisons are usually quite weak.
Click to expand...

Wait, how does that make him wrong? I suppose if you're making the argument that conservatives didn't want ANY health care reform whatsoever, I can see that, but if that's the case, it's a pretty friggin low bar to set. So getting even something like Obamacare would by default be super liberal. But that doesn't mean out of all the possible types of UCH, Obamacare is closer to the right end of the spectrum than anything else.

edit: goddamnit, can't make one like this. Looks like I'll have to fire up mspaint.


GhaleonEB said:
Hilarious.
Click to expand...

If you think it's funny shitting on the constitution, then yeah, I suppose.

I mean, shit he's OPENLY mocking the fact that he's gotten away with it now! Where's the outrage?!
 
D

Diablos

Member
cartoon_soldier said:
NEWTBABY.jpg


They added another story to the HCR video series:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=piLRSZiDYVw - Insurance Premiums going up because baby was getting sick too much
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjqV1iHwU-A - Ear Infection classified as a pre-existing condition even though Doctor calls that BS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4n_qBZf3R0 - Free preventive care

Democrats need a fucking millionaire funder to just put these on TV
Click to expand...
No kidding. Don't count on it...


AlteredBeast said:
No viable third party ticket = no Obama loss.
Click to expand...
Wouldn't this help Obama? See: Perot Effect.

So is it finally safe to say Mittens has this locked up? I wish Newt would drop out already. Santorum in the GE would be epic for Dems.
 
E

elrechazado

Banned
Oblivion said:
If you think it's funny shitting on the constitution, then yeah, I suppose.

I mean, shit he's OPENLY mocking the fact that he's gotten away with it now! Where's the outrage?!
Click to expand...

He'll laugh until Sheriff Joe slaps the cuffs on him and deports him back to the country of Africa.
 
P

Phoenician_Viking

Banned
OuterWorldVoice said:
Typically liberals would want a good NHS style setup. The end. Single payer is an abstract of that, not a replication of it. Insurance companies exacerbate and create most of the problems with our existing situation. We're an international joke and we deserve to be mocked. The sheer number of Americans who cannot fathom this is spectacular. We are basically the only country that operates like this, and we should be ashamed.

The fact that the right wing is busy trying to replicate this system for our public schools should be a matter of national outrage, but people don't really care or pay attention.
Click to expand...

Yet another example of how Americans don´t care about themselves or their future. School are essential if one would want to build an educated country. Good healthcare + educating people about health, are essential if one wants a healthy country.
 
T

thatbox

Banned
Diablos said:
No kidding. Don't count on it...



Wouldn't this help Obama? See: Perot Effect.

So is it finally safe to say Mittens has this locked up? I wish Newt would drop out already. Santorum in the GE would be epic for Dems.
Click to expand...

I don't have any numbers to back it up, but my gut says that having a sane third party option would split the vote of people who only want to vote for a sane candidate, thus hurting Obama more than Romney.
 
M

MrPliskin

Banned
Oblivion said:
If he was, then why hasn't he released his birth certificate yet?
Click to expand...

And you need to see it because...he's black? Because of his name?

I don't recall anyone trumpeting for birth certificates for prior POTUS. What exactly is different here? That his parents weren't both US Citizens? Give me a break.

Also, is this some sort of crazy conspiracy I'm not aware of?

http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2011/04/politics/interactive.obama.birth.certificate/index.html

Did something happen between then and now that I missed?
 
E

elrechazado

Banned
MrPliskin said:
And you need to see it because...he's black? Because of his name?

I don't recall anyone trumpeting for birth certificates for prior POTUS. What exactly is different here? That his parents weren't both US Citizens? Give me a break.

Also, is this some sort of crazy conspiracy I'm not aware of?

http://www.cnn.com/interactive/2011/04/politics/interactive.obama.birth.certificate/index.html

Did something happen between then and now that I missed?
Click to expand...

This is some sort of crazy concept called sarcasm that you're not aware of.
 
R

RustyNails

Member
CNN projects Santorum wins Louisiana.

Also, did anyone else catch Fareed Zakaria's special on Healthcare? Pretty much an hour long indictment on assholes who try to profit on the expense of insurance holders
 
C

Chichikov

Member
RustyNails said:
Also, did anyone else catch Fareed Zakaria's special on Healthcare? Pretty much an hour long indictment on assholes who try to profit on the expense of insurance holders
Click to expand...
Yes, it was great.
Didn't agree with everything there, but it was fantastic hour of television.
And once again, you guys should be watching GPS.
 
X

XMonkey

lacks enthusiasm.
Too bad they've uglied up this forum by making so many stickies.

Now that I think about it, forums should have stickies on the bottom of the first page, not the top.
 
P

PhoenixDark

Banned
It's time for Santorum to simply campaign and stop viciously attacking Romney. It's clear Santorum will not be the nominee, but will continue winning some states. Now is the time to quiet down a bit, stop slamming the nominee, and start looking ahead to 2016. I'm not sure the votes he's winning mean these people are loyal to him in the same way they were to Huckabee, but it's still a potential base that can be build upon for the future.

If Santorum was smart he'd spend a lot of time later this year campaigning for congressional candidates across the country. That Nixon playbook is always helpful; people forget that Obama spent a whole lot of time campaigning for other democrats in 2006, which built bridges and led to endorsements in 2007 and early 08.
 
A

AlteredBeast

Fork 'em, Sparky!
when do we find out about the delegate breakdown from Missouri. It would be interesting to see if the reports were true and that Romney and Ron Paul both end up getting more delegates than Santorum!
 
G

GhaleonEB

Member
Santorum continues to outperform his polls.

Nate Silver said:
Rick Santorum is likely to win the Louisiana Republican primary on Saturday. He has had a clear and fairly consistent lead of about 14 percentage points in recent polls there.
Click to expand...

He won by 22.3%.
 
M

makingmusic476

Member
I wonder why he won by such a landslide here. Romney and Gingrich preformed much better in Mississippi and Alabama. It's his second largest percentage, right behind Kansas.

And I mean, we have New Orleans. Though I suppose New Orleans is Catholic through and through.

Edit:

Yup, Jefferson Parish (my parish) went Santorum. It's where all the conservative Catholic white people went after leaving New Orleans due to white flight.

The only parish that went for Romney was Orleans:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/24/louisiana-primary-results-2012_n_1376348.html
 
B

besada

Banned
Hi. I lost track of you, PoliGAF. Someone came and hijack you in the middle of the night and rolled you into a bad part of town. I watched it happen, but I was busy doing other stuff, and always felt weird about posting just to get you into my subscription list so I could find you.

But things are starting to spin up, and my life has settled down a tiny bit, so here I am, looking for daily polls and chicken-littleism of the best kind. It's nice to see you all again.
 
S

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
besada said:
Hi. I lost track of you, PoliGAF. Someone came and hijack you in the middle of the night and rolled you into a bad part of town. I watched it happen, but I was busy doing other stuff, and always felt weird about posting just to get you into my subscription list so I could find you.

But things are starting to spin up, and my life has settled down a tiny bit, so here I am, looking for daily polls and chicken-littleism of the best kind. It's nice to see you all again.
Click to expand...

Posts like this remind me that Obama can't win in 12.
 
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