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PoliGAF 2012 Community Thread

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GhaleonEB

Member
It's about mind games and perception, really. If UE is falling public perception on the economy improves, businesses hire more, etc. But in real terms it means millions of people are still not looking for jobs/given up and suffering.

We've seen some pushback from republicans on this issue in response to the recent positive jobs reports. I expect it to continue and it might become Romney's main argument if UE becomes 7.8-8.2 due to this. I just don't see it working, especially coming from a politician as bad as Romney.

On that note, when we had months when the jobs report was positive, but the rate increased due to a nudge up in the participation rate, Republicans still fixated on the rate itself. Not that we should expect anything else, of course.

Even more important will be the actual change in jobs, since that has a direct impact on the economy, rather than the measure of it. I just wanted to get that in here since it's going to be something to watch.
 
Also,



More at the link.

What annoys me is that Republicans in 2010 had zero interest in paying for the Bush Tax Cuts extension. And they recently just blocked a resolution in the House that would have affirmed the Bush Tax Cuts added to the deficit.

Yet when it comes to tax cuts and tax holidays for the poor/middle class, they must be paid for. I don't understand how middle class Republican voters aren't outraged by this? It's ideologically inconsistent. In one instance a tax extension pays for itself, in another instance they have to be deficit neutral before the extension is even enacted. And the determining factor seems to be who is the primary beneficiary of the tax extension...
 

sc0la

Unconfirmed Member
I never thought I'd see the day where Democrats are vehemently defending gimmicky tax cuts. 1000 dollars a year for the middle class? That's a lousy 20 dollars a week in 'stimulus'. Meanwhile, millions of other upper-middle class and rich also go without paying those taxes. The deficit keeps ballooning and it gives more credence (and power) to those that want to slash entitlement programs for the poor.

It's just bad policy. One for which they will pay for down the road.

Meh the party is defending it because they see it as a messaging win against the republicans. Policy wise I don't think it is a great idea, BUT as long as extensions of the UI benefits are tied to it I will support it (edit caveat that I think it should be phased out soon). media focuses on payroll tax but loss of extended UI would be catestrophic right now.

Depending on how the numbers worked out and assuming it was a net positive for the trust fund I would support a permanemtly reduced payroll tax rate that removed the upper cap on income it is applied to.

EDIT: also I agree with you that returning to '96 rates as a baseline for everyone is a good idea. I don't see Obama changing his position on the under 250k though.
 
On that note, when we had months when the jobs report was positive, but the rate increased due to a nudge up in the participation rate, Republicans still fixated on the rate itself. Not that we should expect anything else, of course.

Even more important will be the actual change in jobs, since that has a direct impact on the economy, rather than the measure of it. I just wanted to get that in here since it's going to be something to watch.

Yup, good point. They want it both ways, and I just can't see it working if we see 120-150k jobs a month and gradual UE decline.

There's still a long ways to go, and plenty of potential land mines; most recently the payroll tax fight, with republicans willing to fuck things up again. I agree with ToxicAdam that we need to get rid of that payroll tax cut eventually, but just not right now.
 
What annoys me is that Republicans in 2010 had zero interest in paying for the Bush Tax Cuts extension. And they recently just blocked a resolution in the House that would have affirmed the Bush Tax Cuts added to the deficit.

Yet when it comes to tax cuts and tax holidays for the poor/middle class, they must be paid for. I don't understand how middle class Republican voters aren't outraged by this? It's ideologically inconsistent. In one instance a tax extension pays for itself, in another instance they have to be deficit neutral before the extension is even enacted. And the determining factor seems to be who is the primary beneficiary of the tax extension...
I think that is a good point. And my explanation is that the political thinking never gets that nuanced for the low/middle class Republicans. They are focused on abortion, gays, guns, and immigrants, etc.
 
Yeah, I tried to frame it in purely polical terms, since it's not 'good news' in any other context.

Please note my framing: I referenced the reported unemployment rate (as opposed to the actual), and the political implications, rather than economic, because that is the point I was emphasizing. I did not (and don't) characterize it as good news in any other way. We agree about the practical implications.
I wasn't trying to "gotcha" you; I didn't make my point broadly enough: I don't think a scenario where unemployment goes down but workforce participation stays low is one where the president wants to start beating the "morning in America" drum, because it could backfire.

Sidebar: Does anyone else get the giggles at listening to Susan Rice shouting angrily at Russia and China for being out of step with the international community? I'm not saying that she's wrong, just that it seems extra funny after this September.
 
So my team lead is a Republican. Never talk about religion or politics with your colleagues/co-workers.

He argued for torture, saying waterboarding led us to UBL's location hideout in Pakistan. He said bailout was nothing but kickbacks to Obama's business buddies in wall st and elsewhere. Apparently the documentary "Too Big to Fail" explains what the bailout was rather incorrectly, because he quoted misinformation and told me to watch it. He said Obama didn't do jack shit. He continued Bush policies. Even Obamacare was copied from Romneycare.
 

Jackson50

Member
Aren't you the witty one, still taking something I said and using it in the wrong context are we? Need I remind you I said I didn't need to go read up on my political beliefs.

As for you and the Iranian youth movement? Well they got censored, shot, tortured, and shut down.

They got smart and left, because they understood this could work in a lot of countries, but not Iran. Obama missed a big opportunity to really help these people, encourage them, and help propagate the movement with other countries around the world. Instead he did little, and no one else came to their aid, physically or verbally. This proved that Iran could squash the revolution like a bug, and not have to worry about it coming back. They won't let this happen again, they will continue to push propaganda on people until they either start listening, or become too afraid to fight back.

I actually feel like a couple of actions by the Obama administration have strengthened Iran's resolve, and they probably think he is a bit of a coward. They are testing how long their leash is, and I think this administration has let it get far too long.



I'm not going to disagree with you, the United States has really screwed up in the past with our actions towards Iran. However now, partly because of our actions, they are led by a very unpredictable, radical regime. This regime must not be allowed Nuclear Weapons, or Power, at all costs. Any grab at Nuclear Power is a cover for getting weapons, and the weapons will be used as the ultimate bargaining chip against Israel, and other nations like Saudi Arabia. They can't be trusted with these things, and they cannot be allowed to obtain them. Just look at how increasingly hostile Iran is growing, threats to close the straight, bringing in speed boats very close to American ships, claiming they "hacked" our drone, how about trying to kill the Saudi Ambassador on our own soil? I honestly feel like Iran would likely do something dangerous and harmful to either Israel, Saudi Arabia, or the Untied States, even if it caused massive destruction for their own nation.
You admit continual American interference contributed to the conception of the Iranian regime, yet you castigate Obama for failing to interfere in the Iranian protests? Do you not understand how those contradict? Our historical interference is the reason our current interference would have inhibited the opposition. We would have discredited the movement. As I noted in my previous post, additional interference would have only perpetuated the narrative of the U.S. as a meddlesome bully. Unfortunately, the Iranian regime quashed the movement. But obtrusive interference by the U.S. would not have changed the outcome. It would have only accelerated its demise. Furthermore, I want to dispel the notion that Obama's obsequious behavior has emboldened Iran. Not only have we imposed numerous domestic sanctions since his inauguration, Obama has attempted to cajole other states to enact additional sanctions. This is eerily identical to Romney's sophomoric critique of Obama.

And while I wholly disagree with your second paragraph, I have to grade papers and could properly refute it. Perhaps later tonight I will.
 
I don't live in your make-believe world. So, I can't make a case on whether that would work or not. I live in the world of reality of what is possible through policy and the electorate that exists today. Rolling back tax rates to 1996 levels is within that realm of possibility. Raising taxes to 80% on those making 1mil+ is not reality, nor would it be the silver bullet to remedying our problems.

So because you don't think anything substantively good is possible, you feel obligated to advocate something substantively bad? Not very bright.

Of course it does. Every year the government has a 'nut' to meet. When you tax people less than what is needed to make that nut, they are effectively 'losing' money.

The government doesn't have any 'nut' to meet except that needed to regulate aggregate demand. And that 'nut' can be allocated any way we choose, and since that is the case, we should choose to allocate it in socially beneficial ways. Poor people already are so seriously lacking in money that aggregate demand is too low, creating a drain on the economy. Taking more from these people will not only hurt them, it will hurt the economy and hence every member of society. And since the best use of the government's spending for the economy--and hence for us all--is on these very people, it simply makes no sense to take money from them in order to give it back to them to spend.

Deficits matter because they drive elections. The bigger the deficits get, the bigger the pushback will be for austerity. It's inescapable.

Only if we insist on remaining ignorant and advocating bad policy because we deem good policy politically unattainable. You would do better to just keep your mouth shut than to advocate bad policy. On the other hand, if you actually believe in the policy, then defend it substantively and stop falling back on arguments about political impracticability.
 
So my team lead is a Republican. Never talk about religion or politics with your colleagues/co-workers.

He argued for torture, saying waterboarding led us to UBL's location hideout in Pakistan. He said bailout was nothing but kickbacks to Obama's business buddies in wall st and elsewhere. Apparently the documentary "Too Big to Fail" explains what the bailout was rather incorrectly, because he quoted misinformation and told me to watch it. He said Obama didn't do jack shit. He continued Bush policies. Even Obamacare was copied from Romneycare.

I'm 50/50 about water boarding terrorist but I never saw how this was a politically motivated issue, it could have happened just the same under a democrat. Unless you truly believe a republican is evil.

I'm not sold on the bailout being non-partisan, why didn't a great American company like Kodak get any money? The Rochester NY area and upstate NY area isn't doing so hot either, instead lack of government help didn't save them, and outrageous New York State taxes helped drive them to move their workforce and other jobs into Japan and China.

I understood it saved jobs but I'm still not happy about the auto industry bailout. We bailed out two companies that deserved to go under, because they made awful product. Before the bailout they told people to buy their cars because they were "American" (they weren't, Honda's had more American parts).

Besides we didn't fix GM or Chrystler. We put a band aid on the larger issue with the company: Unions.

GM to point out should have been allowed to go bankrupt. Plenty of companies emerge from bankruptcy a better company. Back when Ford was just starting up they went bankrupt multiple times before the grand success of the Model T. However

Instead of going to a bankruptcy judge, and figuring out the Unions they have are bleeding them dry, the Unions used their influence to get taxpayer money from Bush, Obama, and other democrats.

The Union bosses have negotiated so many outrageous benefits, unrealistic health care, egregious pensions, wages that were too high for simple "button pressing" jobs.

Obama was supposed to be about hope and change, instead he just caved to political pressure from Unions, being a democrat.

You admit continual American interference contributed to the conception of the Iranian regime, yet you castigate Obama for failing to interfere in the Iranian protests? Do you not understand how those contradict? Our historical interference is the reason our current interference would have inhibited the opposition. We would have discredited the movement. As I noted in my previous post, additional interference would have only perpetuated the narrative of the U.S. as a meddlesome bully. Unfortunately, the Iranian regime quashed the movement. But obtrusive interference by the U.S. would not have changed the outcome. It would have only accelerated its demise. Furthermore, I want to dispel the notion that Obama's obsequious behavior has emboldened Iran. Not only have we imposed numerous domestic sanctions since his inauguration, Obama has attempted to cajole other states to enact additional sanctions. This is eerily identical to Romney's sophomoric critique of Obama.

And while I wholly disagree with your second paragraph, I have to grade papers and could properly refute it. Perhaps later tonight I will.

I understand the point you are trying to make but perhaps I should be more detailed, I'm not talking about sending troops in or flying them aid. I think it would have been much more effective to really verbally hammer home support of freedom, and their movement, instead of just saying it once. I believe where you are incorrect sir is in that these youthful revolutionists would have accepted our praise, or assistance because they are so westernized. We created this mess, we ought to fix it. As for sanctions.. I think they have a time in place, but I think we are taking it to far, to a point where it makes things worse. Please feel free to respond to my second half when ever, I appreciate the polite tone of your post and demeanor. Send me a PM if you'd like as well.
 

Puddles

Banned
Those union benefits are an albatross now, but it's important to remember that company management agreed to them when they were first negotiated.
 
Those union benefits are an albatross now, but it's important to remember that company management agreed to them when they were first negotiated.

Either by being forced to, or pressured into it, and a combination of poor choices.

Just so everyone knows I'm not saying I'm against unions, but they certainly get out of control at times.
 
Those union benefits are an albatross now, but it's important to remember that company management agreed to them when they were first negotiated.

Either by being forced to, or pressured into it, and a combination of poor choices.

Just so everyone knows I'm not saying I'm against unions, but they certainly get out of control at times and need to be stopped.
 

GhaleonEB

Member
I wasn't trying to "gotcha" you; I didn't make my point broadly enough: I don't think a scenario where unemployment goes down but workforce participation stays low is one where the president wants to start beating the "morning in America" drum, because it could backfire.

Sidebar: Does anyone else get the giggles at listening to Susan Rice shouting angrily at Russia and China for being out of step with the international community? I'm not saying that she's wrong, just that it seems extra funny after this September.

I didn't think you did, I just wanted to clarify the reason I posted it: for the political rather than the economic implications. To the extent that it benefits Obama, it disarms one of the GOP's potential arguments about Obama's presidency. Or at least, mitigates it.
 
I understand the point you are trying to make but perhaps I should be more detailed, I'm not talking about sending troops in or flying them aid. I think it would have been much more effective to really verbally hammer home support of freedom, and their movement, instead of just saying it once. I believe where you are incorrect sir is in that these youthful revolutionists would have accepted our praise, or assistance because they are so westernized. We created this mess, we ought to fix it. As for sanctions.. I think they have a time in place, but I think we are taking it to far, to a point where it makes things worse. Please feel free to respond to my second half when ever, I appreciate the polite tone of your post and demeanor. Send me a PM if you'd like as well.

What would that have done? To verbally offer support? The world as a whole was watching. This needs to be an Iranian revolution, not a U.S. supported Iranian revolution. The world was watching. Social networking allowed the Iranians to know that the people of the U.S. were in support of what they were doing, regardless of whether a President hammers home a talking point or not.

And no, it isn't our responsibility to fix the mess. We've already done enough damaged by getting involved over the years.

Either by being forced to, or pressured into it, and a combination of poor choices.

Just so everyone knows I'm not saying I'm against unions, but they certainly get out of control at times and need to be stopped.

Stopped from getting out of control? How do you propose we accomplish that?
 

Tamanon

Banned
What would that have done? To verbally offer support? The world as a whole was watching. This needs to be an Iranian revolution, not a U.S. supported Iranian revolution. The world was watching. Social networking allowed the Iranians to know that the people of the U.S. were in support of what they were doing, regardless of whether a President hammers home a talking point or not.

And no, it isn't our responsibility to fix the mess. We've already done enough damaged by getting involved over the years.



Stopped from getting out of control? How do you propose we accomplish that?

I assume he proposes military force.
 
What would that have done? To verbally offer support? The world as a whole was watching. This needs to be an Iranian revolution, not a U.S. supported Iranian revolution. The world was watching. Social networking allowed the Iranians to know that the people of the U.S. were in support of what they were doing, regardless of whether a President hammers home a talking point or not.

And no, it isn't our responsibility to fix the mess. We've already done enough damaged by getting involved over the years.



Stopped from getting out of control? How do you propose we accomplish that?

Regulations? Laws? I don't have the policy drafted, sorry.

as for everything else Social Networking allowed them to get together, get promptly shut down, censored, and probably get your name on a torture "to do list"
 
Regulations? Laws? I don't have the policy drafted, sorry.

as for everything else Social Networking allowed them to get together, get promptly shut down, censored, and probably get your name on a torture "to do list"

Social Networking also allowed the Egyptians to overthrow Mubarrak regardless of the attempt by his government to turn off the Internet. It also has helped Syrians, Libyans too. So what you want is for Obama to tell the protestors that he and the U.S. supports them AND then to have Obama give the green light for us to bomb Iran to stop them from getting nukes. Yep. Nothing conveys 'We are with you' like a few bunker-busters on their country. Masterful.

And I like how you're in favor of regulations to clamp down on unions but heavens to betsie if regulations are enacted to stop big banks from robbing our country blind. From insurance agencies to rob its customers or turn them down for coverage due to preexisting conditions. Regulations to make sure that a woman who works for a Catholic Hospital is covered for birth control. Nooooo, then regulation is an evil word.
 

Zabka

Member
I'm 50/50 about water boarding terrorist but I never saw how this was a politically motivated issue, it could have happened just the same under a democrat. Unless you truly believe a republican is evil.

I'm not sold on the bailout being non-partisan, why didn't a great American company like Kodak get any money? The Rochester NY area and upstate NY area isn't doing so hot either, instead lack of government help didn't save them, and outrageous New York State taxes helped drive them to move their workforce and other jobs into Japan and China.

I understood it saved jobs but I'm still not happy about the auto industry bailout. We bailed out two companies that deserved to go under, because they made awful product. Before the bailout they told people to buy their cars because they were "American" (they weren't, Honda's had more American parts).

Besides we didn't fix GM or Chrystler. We put a band aid on the larger issue with the company: Unions.

GM to point out should have been allowed to go bankrupt. Plenty of companies emerge from bankruptcy a better company. Back when Ford was just starting up they went bankrupt multiple times before the grand success of the Model T. However

Instead of going to a bankruptcy judge, and figuring out the Unions they have are bleeding them dry, the Unions used their influence to get taxpayer money from Bush, Obama, and other democrats.

The Union bosses have negotiated so many outrageous benefits, unrealistic health care, egregious pensions, wages that were too high for simple "button pressing" jobs.

Obama was supposed to be about hope and change, instead he just caved to political pressure from Unions, being a democrat.
GM did go bankrupt, the largest in industrial history. The federal money from the bailout prevented it from being chopped up and sold off which would have totally fucked up the economy.

Do you have some personal stake in Kodak? GM is an order of magnitude larger than them.
 
Social Networking also allowed the Egyptians to overthrow Mubarrak regardless of the attempt by his government to turn off the Internet. It also has helped Syrians, Libyans too. So what you want is for Obama to tell the protestors that he and the U.S. supports them AND then to have Obama give the green light for us to bomb Iran to stop them from getting nukes. Yep. Nothing conveys 'We are with you' like a few bunker-busters on their country. Masterful.

And I like how you're in favor of regulations to clamp down on unions but heavens to betsie if regulations are enacted to stop big banks from robbing our country blind. From insurance agencies to rob its customers or turn them down for coverage due to preexisting conditions. Regulations to make sure that a woman who works for a Catholic Hospital is covered for birth control. Nooooo, then regulation is an evil word.

I study new media design, but I also have a vested interest in Social Media. I'm well aware of the things Social Media has, and has not done for revolutions. Of course it allowed them to mobilize quickly, perhaps faster then ever before, but its easily censored, and you put your self at greater risk by putting your name out there. Stop assuming I want to bomb Iran at any given moment, these things should be last resort measures, if you are certain a nuclear Iran would be dangerous.

As for the second paragraph.

I've never said regulations on big banks were bad, nor have I ever said it was right for customers to be turned down on preexisting conditions!

You've blindly taken issues you think a conservative must automatically believe to be true and have applied them to me. If you even payed a little attention you would know I don't support or believe those policies or schools of thought.

I'm also quite sick of your superiority complex coupled with negative treatment of me. Plenty people in here don't agree with me, but they easily manage to be friendly and polite about it.

How can you have the audacity to use things I have said out of context, or furthermore tout on these forums that I don't read, I don't research, and I don't know what I'm talking about, only to turn around and assume what I believe in because other conservatives might think that.

If there is a lack of reading up Mr. Steam, the blame falls upon your shoulders.
 
ToxicAdam, I think this is what Empty Vessel is driving at:

http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2012/01/30/us_is_leading_the_world_in_deleveraging.html
But it shows that the United States has been leading the world in terms of progress on reducing total indebtedness in the wake of the crisis. Big federal budget deficits have been offset by sharper declines in private debt, and our growth situation, while by no means good, has been better than what you see in a lot of other countries.

The basic policy lesson here should be to re-enforce the IMF's warning against premature fiscal austerity. A country that has a lot of excess capacity and has the ability to borrow at low interest rates and whose private sector is deleveraging quickly ought to avoid efforts to reduce public sector debt. A path where total debt falls is a perfectly reasonable place to be, and prematurely tightening the fiscal screws can undermine private deleveraging. The looming hike in payroll taxes is to the point. If there is no extension, then disposable personal income will drop and the public sector savings will be offset in the private sector as slower sales for businesses and higher debt:income ratios for households. Since the federal government can raise the debt more cheaply than can firms or households, it makes more sense to leave it on the federal books than to hike taxes.

Basically the federal government can borrow money more cheaply than the private economy. If federal deficits go up, but total debt of both private and public go down, then we are doing better.

Matt Yglesias also goes into taxes as well here:
http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2012/01/31/the_world_contains_multiple_gaps.html
 
I study new media design, but I also have a vested interest in Social Media. I'm well aware of the things Social Media has, and has not done for revolutions. Of course it allowed them to mobilize quickly, perhaps faster then ever before, but its easily censored, and you put your self at greater risk by putting your name out there. Stop assuming I want to bomb Iran at any given moment, these things should be last resort measures, if you are certain a nuclear Iran would be dangerous.

As for the second paragraph.

I've never said regulations on big banks were bad, nor have I ever said it was right for customers to be turned down on preexisting conditions!

You've blindly taken issues you think a conservative must automatically believe to be true and have applied them to me. If you even payed a little attention you would know I don't support or believe those policies or schools of thought.

I'm also quite sick of your superiority complex coupled with negative treatment of me. Plenty people in here don't agree with me, but they easily manage to be friendly and polite about it.

How can you have the audacity to use things I have said out of context, or furthermore tout on these forums that I don't read, I don't research, and I don't know what I'm talking about, only to turn around and assume what I believe in because other conservatives might think that.

If there is a lack of reading up Mr. Steam, the blame falls upon your shoulders.

You certainly haven't helped yourself by refusing to back down from the statement that you don't need to read about what you believe. You certainly haven't helped yourself by siding with individuals who are hypocrites and supporting, or at least giving credence to hypocritical statements by said individuals. You haven't helped yourself when it comes to your statements regarding the Middle East, and in particular Iran in reference to Nukes and Israel. Ignorance isn't something that should be applauded.

People talk harsh here. It's politics. People are invested in politics. Different individuals have different methods of communicating. The way that I communicate to you may not be something that you like so you are free to put me on ignore. There are many who communicate in ways that I don't find appealing. And if they say something that I disagree with or that misrepresents what I say, I will call them out on it just like you did with me.

Now that I know that you are not against regulation in regards to health care I won't bring it up again. I brought it up because I thought that during a previous discussion you voiced your displeasure with the health care bill and that the government shouldn't be in the business of forcing providers to offer coverage to their customers. The same with banks. And no, my stating what I did wasn't in response to you being a conservative. I'm not so blind as to assume that all conservatives agree on that matters of health care and financial regulation, or any regulation for that matter.

When I first started on PoliGAF I spouted my beliefs and was confronted by individuals who disagreed with me. Some did it in a very calm and patient manner (Ghaleon, Gaime, etc.) and others did it in a very harsh manner (Panther, Reilo). I didn't choose to ignore them because of how forceful and confrontational they were or weren't. It's the information that I paid attention to. You can choose to ignore me or not but I'm not going to change how I post here just because it may offend some individuals.
 

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
I never thought I'd see the day where Democrats are vehemently defending gimmicky tax cuts. 1000 dollars a year for the middle class? That's a lousy 20 dollars a week in 'stimulus'. Meanwhile, millions of other upper-middle class and rich also go without paying those taxes. The deficit keeps ballooning and it gives more credence (and power) to those that want to slash entitlement programs for the poor.

It's just bad policy. One for which they will pay for down the road.

I agree this is gimmicky, but I'm 99% sure you know durn well that the only reason most of us lefties even remotely support this is because this is quite possibly the only stimulative legislation that'll be passed throughout the year.
 
ToxicAdam, I think this is what Empty Vessel is driving at:



Basically the federal government can borrow money more cheaply than the private economy. If federal deficits go up, but total debt of both private and public go down, then we are doing better.

Matt Yglesias also goes into taxes as well here:
http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/2012/01/31/the_world_contains_multiple_gaps.html

Wall of text incoming.

This is very close to what I'm saying, but still a little off in terms of rationale. TA is couching his argument for a tax increase on the poor (and by that I am talking about the bottom 40%) in terms of avoiding austerity. But he fails to realize that raising taxes on the poor is a form of austerity itself. There is no difference between a government reducing the money it spends and a government increasing the taxes it collects.

Consider that a government will spend X amount of dollars in a year. We must decide (1) what amount X the government should spend and (2) who and what X should be spent on. The amount X for any given year ought to be determined based essentially on economic circumstances , i.e., whether aggregate demand ought to be increased (spend more) or decreased (spend less), and based upon how many public services we want, keeping in mind that having more public services will reduce the amount of private services available to us.

Likewise, a government will collect Y amount of dollars in a year. We must decide (1) what amount Y the government should collect and (2) from whom (or from what activities) Y should be collected. The amount Y for any given year ought to be determined based on economic circumstances, i.e., whether aggregate demand ought to be increased (collect less) or decreased (collect more), and other public policy purposes (e.g., activities we want to dissuade).

But beyond regulation of aggregate demand, X and Y have no relationship to each other. In other words, spending (X) is not at all constrained by tax revenue (Y). This is because the government creates money, so it need not collect it in order to spend it (beyond collecting it to regulate aggregate demand such that its spending does not cause price inflation).

Austerity, whether in the form of reducing government spending or increasing taxes, is the equivalent of reducing aggregate demand. Aggregate demand is not primarily driven by wealthy people, because there are so few of them. It is driven by the demand of ordinary people who spend their income. That is why the largest multiplier effects from government spending are from spending that has been directed at low income people (e.g., food stamps). Low income people have little choice but to spend the money given to them, so when the government gives them money, it gets circulated through the economy, goods are purchased, and demand increases. So in bad economic times, it is important not to raise taxes (or reduce spending) on lower income people (again, I'm talking about the bottom 40% or so here). And it is necessary not only to refrain from reducing spending (or raising taxes) but also to increase spending, i.e., to run a deficit. And because we're still in bad economic times, it doesn't make sense to take more money from lower income people, because the economic prescription still calls for giving them more.

Deficits are for bad economic times, surpluses are only for economic times that are so good that aggregate demand must be reduced because inflation is threatened.

The article you linked to talked about the costs of borrowing. The federal government doesn't really borrow money, it only pretends to do so. Because the federal government has the power to create money at will, it never needs to borrow it. The legal requirement that the government "borrow" in order to spend is a self-imposed constraint, but, even still, it isn't really borrowing anything. It is just running a national bank on the side in which people open accounts, deposit money (the cost of the bond), and later get repaid with interest.

I'm a fan of raising taxes on the wealthy for reasons having nothing to do with the deficit or increasing government revenue but because I think too much inequality damages not only the community fabric of society but also the economy. It is bad for the economy because when money is being hoarded at the top (and the government is not spending more on the bottom to balance it out), aggregate demand must fall, because the rest have less to spend. You get a great big recession (or depression) as a result. So I believe the government should be taxing wealthy people a lot more and also spending a lot more on the bottom 80%, even though the former is not required to do the latter. But given the economic circumstances, even I am in no hurry to raise taxes on the wealthy. It is currently far more important to increase government spending (X) and direct that spending towards the the lower and middle classes (bottom 80%). And the government does not need to borrow any money at all to do that.
 

Wilsongt

Member
Alright, PoliGAF. I am bringing this article in because I am seeing it floating around on Facebook and sparking up some hard Christian fury on my Facebook feed.


http://www.thedailybeast.com/newswe...al-war-on-christians-in-the-muslim-world.html

We hear so often about Muslims as victims of abuse in the West and combatants in the Arab Spring’s fight against tyranny. But, in fact, a wholly different kind of war is underway—an unrecognized battle costing thousands of lives. Christians are being killed in the Islamic world because of their religion. It is a rising genocide that ought to provoke global alarm.

So, I am not aware of what GAF thinks of Newsweek magazine. I find it kind of funny that people are getting up in arms about the murder of Christians, yet constantly all over the world there is murder of many people of different faiths all the time.

I think it's awful that anyone is being killed because of their religion. It's down right disgusting. I just don't understand why one group is allowed to get more up in arms about it than another...
 

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
Alright, PoliGAF. I am bringing this article in because I am seeing it floating around on Facebook and sparking up some hard Christian fury on my Facebook feed.


http://www.thedailybeast.com/newswe...al-war-on-christians-in-the-muslim-world.html



So, I am not aware of what GAF thinks of Newsweek magazine. I find it kind of funny that people are getting up in arms about the murder of Christians, yet constantly all over the world there is murder of many people of different faiths all the time.

I think it's awful that anyone is being killed because of their religion. It's down right disgusting. I just don't understand why one group is allowed to get more up in arms about it than another...

You'd probably understand that if you were one of God's chosen. Alas.
 
Alright, PoliGAF. I am bringing this article in because I am seeing it floating around on Facebook and sparking up some hard Christian fury on my Facebook feed.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/newswe...al-war-on-christians-in-the-muslim-world.html

So, I am not aware of what GAF thinks of Newsweek magazine. I find it kind of funny that people are getting up in arms about the murder of Christians, yet constantly all over the world there is murder of many people of different faiths all the time.

I think it's awful that anyone is being killed because of their religion. It's down right disgusting. I just don't understand why one group is allowed to get more up in arms about it than another...
The article is highlighting a perceived under reporting of Christian minorities violently attacked in Islamic majority countries. I don't see the author elevating one injustice over another.

In addition, the Christian persecution experience is deeply personal to the author's life.

edit:Oops, I mistakely thought she was Christian. Nevertheless, her story is still rooted in persecution by a sect of Muslims.
 

Chichikov

Member
Alright, PoliGAF. I am bringing this article in because I am seeing it floating around on Facebook and sparking up some hard Christian fury on my Facebook feed.


http://www.thedailybeast.com/newswe...al-war-on-christians-in-the-muslim-world.html



So, I am not aware of what GAF thinks of Newsweek magazine. I find it kind of funny that people are getting up in arms about the murder of Christians, yet constantly all over the world there is murder of many people of different faiths all the time.

I think it's awful that anyone is being killed because of their religion. It's down right disgusting. I just don't understand why one group is allowed to get more up in arms about it than another...
Religious prosecution is a serious concern in many countries around the world.
But that isn't relevant to the fact the Muslims are treated quite terribly in the US, unless you're keeping score as to which is the bestest religion.
 
Alright, PoliGAF. I am bringing this article in because I am seeing it floating around on Facebook and sparking up some hard Christian fury on my Facebook feed.


http://www.thedailybeast.com/newswe...al-war-on-christians-in-the-muslim-world.html



So, I am not aware of what GAF thinks of Newsweek magazine. I find it kind of funny that people are getting up in arms about the murder of Christians, yet constantly all over the world there is murder of many people of different faiths all the time.

I think it's awful that anyone is being killed because of their religion. It's down right disgusting. I just don't understand why one group is allowed to get more up in arms about it than another...
WHY THE FUCK is Ayaan ali hirsi given permission to write in Newsweek? She's a complete right wing islamophobic lunatic, worse than Wafa Sultan and Pamela Gellar. She writes complete lies and propaganda and is in bed with islamophobic morons in US. I was going to address this issue, but wont because it's from a nutjob. She's a loon.
 
Nice article from right wing apostate, Bruce Bartlett on the latest Republican scheme to make supply side economics appear as if it works:

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/02/07/tilting-the-budget-process-to-the-g-o-p/

Man that is some scary stuff right there. Some choice quotes:

How soon before the C.B.O. is required to incorporate estimates from the right-wing Heritage Foundation in its calculations?It already has a very well-financed Center for Data Analysis that the chairman of the House Budget Committee, Paul Ryan of Wisconsin, used to analyze his budget plan last year, bypassing the Joint Committee on Taxation and C.B.O.

I am also suspicious of what appear to be politically motivated investigations into C.B.O. by Republican congressional staff members, reported on Feb. 2 by The Wall Street Journal, and Republican efforts to gut the Government Accountability Office.

It is reasonable to assume that the Republicans’ effort to alter the budget process is just another aspect of their goal to politicize policy and institutionalize their philosophy.

That guy in the 2004 election was right. They really do make their own reality, and we just live in it.
 
Man that is some scary stuff right there. Some choice quotes:



That guy in the 2004 election was right. They really do make their own reality, and we just live in it.

Rick Scott cancelled HSR because the Heritage foundation told him it would lose money.

Since then, 4 major independent consulting groups have ruled that they were full of shit, and the system would be profitable.
 
Rick Scott cancelled HSR because the Heritage foundation told him it would lose money.

Since then, 4 major independent consulting groups have ruled that they were full of shit, and the system would be profitable.

Oh I know. I think there was some report they released that said the Ryan Plan would lead to 2% unemployment or something. Something that has not happen in over 50 years.
 

Mike M

Nick N
Kinda sad that the only surprise to me of Obama giving the okay for using SuperPAC money is that I already thought he was using them since to not do so would be suicide.
 

Ecotic

Member
Oh, finally found the poligaf thread. For a week or so I had just figured an administrator bungled the minithreads idea, the whole community got splintered and confused and fell apart.

Well, looks to be an interesting primary night.
 
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