This a million fucking times. You and I share exactly the same view. I use the "if we were starting fresh on an island, would we allocate so much wealth to this guy?" reasoning quite a bit. Edit: I don't have a problem with the athletes getting paid though. I know it sounds like I'm backtracking, but I'm not.
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PoliGAF 2012 Community Thread
- Thread starter AlteredBeast
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This a million fucking times. You and I share exactly the same view. I use the "if we were starting fresh on an island, would we allocate so much wealth to this guy?" reasoning quite a bit. Edit: I don't have a problem with the athletes getting paid though. I know it sounds like I'm backtracking, but I'm not.
Arrowgigantic
Member
Nope. Not without a large operational vulnerability. Supply chains don't defend themselves. Just because current operations involve an enemy that doesn't have the capability to disrupt them doesn't mean that will always be the case.
You sound like the bizzaro me. I had the exact opposite experience. My mother leaned heavily to left and my father was fairly neutral. My immediate family was fairly well off during my childhood, while the rest of the family was less so. I was a few months to young to vote in 2008, but I did the exact same studying on the politics of the last 10 years and ended up identifying myself as a (slight) conservative. That said, I'll probably end up voting for Obama this year.
Makes sense since Obama is a center-right President.
AlteredBeast
Fork 'em, Sparky!
I don't agree with this reasoning. The players have demonstrated their worth. They are a brand and provide for tens of thousands of jobs in marketing, arenas, technical support, etc by the virtue of them being amazing at something. People line up to watch these people play; they are worth every penny.
CEOs can be similar, though it is not always true. Someone who leads a company to the peak of prosperity and success deserves as much of a salary as their board (or if they are sole proprietor, themselves) says. People who run flailing companies further into the ground do not deserve multi-million dollar salaries, golden parachutes at the cost of laying off thousands of workers. That is despicable.But you are talking about two entirely different things. Musicians, athletes and others similar deserve every penny.
Fights for the rights of workers getting their fair share, rails against workers that are actually getting their fair share.
Yeah, Phoenix used an example that I don't completely agree with. The distinction is that athletes and entertainers are the product. I don't begrudge them their success.
I mainly use that reasoning when talking about hedge-fund managers or the like. Basically when it comes to any kind of enterprise where tens of thousands of people are working to enrich a few at the very top.
Byakuya769
Member
Hahaha. Sick burn.
Skiptastic
Member
How did you determine this? They put a small orange ball in a round hole but they do it better than most people in the world. People are willing to pay to see this. Not only that, but they're willing to overpay for concession food while there. They are willing to pay more for team apparel than they would for a blank shirt. That is creating value. It also creates jobs for lots of other people. Not only the direct folks (concession stands, team employees) but also related employment (sports writers, sports media, etc.)
I don't have any issue with a progressive tax system, especially one that is bracketed the way ours is. I also don't have any issue with your statement about how it is laughable that job creators are untouchable. But I do start to see an issue when you start thinking that you have some sort of insight into what people should or should not be paid. It hurts your argument talking that way. You're better off sticking to "When we tax you 50% of your $6 million, you still have $3 million to save or spend how you will. When we tax 0% of a family making $40K a year, they have almost no money left over for saving once they get past necessities." That's a more compelling argument for increased taxes on the wealthy and takes out some sort of high minded theory of what people "deserve" to be paid.
Some people really are overpaid though. Basically anyone in finance. One person in capital allocation should not be worth thousands of people involved in actual production.
Black Republican
Member
that Santorum backfire ad, oh man
AlteredBeast
Fork 'em, Sparky!
My response wasn't snappy enough. But I agree about hedge fund managers and other CEOs. The problem is, there is a lot of redundancy and inefficiency in corporate America. When these companies lay off thousands of workers and still turn a profit, they are essentially making it known to everyone that the people mean nothing and the bottom line means everything. If 3 workers can make the same product as 5, then two people aren't necessary. CEO's then become a villain, companies look evil, and the unemployed worker is both a scapegoat and a sacrificial lamb. What is the responsibility of the company to the economy, shareholders, workers, and the environment? I think the answer is more complex than just the fact that CEOs make a shit ton of money.
Very true.
Skiptastic
Member
Hey, I'm in finance! You saying something?
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
The what now?
Hey, I'm in finance! You saying something?
Man, I am sucking with my posts today.
Not everyone in the organizations. I'm talking more about the highest-paid employees. The ones banking seven figures or more.
Blergmeister
Member
I agree but what Skip was saying is that you shouldn't argue with opinion but with fact. People are paid too much is an opinion. People in this condition can't get by is a fact.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
He's probably talking about the Mitt shooting mud out of a gun at Santorum.
Skiptastic
Member
Someone got it!
As y'all already know I was raise mormon and spent most of childhood in Utah County, the reddest county in the reddest state in America.
I honestly grew up thinking Republicanism was the only way to go forward. My parents were never really involved in politics (they were immigrants just like me) but certainly my friend's parents and all the church stuff I was fed was highly republican. I grew up while Ezra Taft Benson (former Republican Head of Agriculture and Civil rights opponent) was Prophet/President of the church which really shaped a lot of how I viewed the world. To put it in perspective the dude was known to quote John Birch from the pulpit.
So I had a ton of conservative influence on my upbringing and was hugely republican. Was really anti Clinton and wholly believed that we should give money to the rich to create more work for us.
When I grew up and I joined the corporate world and worked my way up the corporate ladder I started to notice that the higher I got the more crooked things got and that if you gave corporations more money corporations kept more money. After a while I came to the realization that corporations were not immoral, they were amoral and that was worse. Corporations were not your friend.
I saw how the Republicans kowtowed to the Corps and were always calling for less regulation and that made me start thinking that perhaps it wasn't such a good thing. As I started to work with different kinds of people I found I had empathy and the more I looked at the Republican ideal I noticed that they did not have empathy. I noticed they were more in the "I got mine, you can get yours."
Having grown up dirt poor (we used to have to deliver hundreds of news papers and collect bottles to have enough food to eat) I knew the republican idea that the government should get out of people's way and let them make themselves into what they want was hogwash. I didn't have the opportunities my schoolmates had. No money for me to join a sports team to be able to get a scholarship. My parents were always working so I had no one to help me with my homework and no money for a tutor. Meanwhile my schoolmates were going to tutoring sessions and had parents there to help them with their homework. I realized that even from the moment we're born it's an uneven playing field and because of that the republican ideal fell away into a Hierophantical fantasy. I wouldn't call myself liberal really, I still believe in fiscal conservatism and all that. But since then I haven't been a republican.
I honestly grew up thinking Republicanism was the only way to go forward. My parents were never really involved in politics (they were immigrants just like me) but certainly my friend's parents and all the church stuff I was fed was highly republican. I grew up while Ezra Taft Benson (former Republican Head of Agriculture and Civil rights opponent) was Prophet/President of the church which really shaped a lot of how I viewed the world. To put it in perspective the dude was known to quote John Birch from the pulpit.
So I had a ton of conservative influence on my upbringing and was hugely republican. Was really anti Clinton and wholly believed that we should give money to the rich to create more work for us.
When I grew up and I joined the corporate world and worked my way up the corporate ladder I started to notice that the higher I got the more crooked things got and that if you gave corporations more money corporations kept more money. After a while I came to the realization that corporations were not immoral, they were amoral and that was worse. Corporations were not your friend.
I saw how the Republicans kowtowed to the Corps and were always calling for less regulation and that made me start thinking that perhaps it wasn't such a good thing. As I started to work with different kinds of people I found I had empathy and the more I looked at the Republican ideal I noticed that they did not have empathy. I noticed they were more in the "I got mine, you can get yours."
Having grown up dirt poor (we used to have to deliver hundreds of news papers and collect bottles to have enough food to eat) I knew the republican idea that the government should get out of people's way and let them make themselves into what they want was hogwash. I didn't have the opportunities my schoolmates had. No money for me to join a sports team to be able to get a scholarship. My parents were always working so I had no one to help me with my homework and no money for a tutor. Meanwhile my schoolmates were going to tutoring sessions and had parents there to help them with their homework. I realized that even from the moment we're born it's an uneven playing field and because of that the republican ideal fell away into a Hierophantical fantasy. I wouldn't call myself liberal really, I still believe in fiscal conservatism and all that. But since then I haven't been a republican.
AlteredBeast
Fork 'em, Sparky!
Interesting history.
My family grew up in Orem, but they moved to Nebraska a few years before I was born. We too did newspapers as a family (encompassing miles of the city, really) to make ends meet, and were dirt poor. Both parents worked, no tutors, no money for extra-curriculars unless you saved your paper route money. My dad busted his butt and my mom always worked, too.
We were always taught to be aware of greed and malice and agree that the corporate world is amoral (as I alluded in my previous post), but I am still a firm believer that, even on an uneven playing field, the truly strong and intelligent can still make it in this or any job market.
SouthernDragon
Member
Well, you know, on the American scale. I'm slightly conservative on economics, but liberal socially. On the American scale, though, I'm so liberal I spit blue.
SouthernDragon
Member
PantherLotus
Professional Schmuck
Not that I needed an excuse, but me and Megadeth are DONE! Youthanasia was the last really good album of theirs anyway.
Skiptastic
Member
Well, not only am I in finance, but I'm in SOX compliance, so my job is apparently necessary for the good of our economy! Sweet!I'm in finance and I agree.
Go listen to Tornado of Souls and try to tell me that you're done with that band. I DARE YOU
ClovingWestbrook
Banned
I don't have a problem with NBA players making the money they do, I have a problem with them not being taxed higher. I don't have a problem with one person making $100 million. I have a problem with him not being taxed higher.
AlteredBeast
Fork 'em, Sparky!
Or even just that they actually pay what they are supposed to pay. 35% is plenty high if they actually ended up paying that much.
Officerrob
Banned
I demand that Santorum now comes out to Megadeth at campaign events
The irony of the Megadeth endorsement is that it comes on the heels of this fake story of Rick Santorum declaring war on heavy metal making the rounds and people thinking it was real.
Something something the current Republican party being indistinguishable from satire something something.
Something something the current Republican party being indistinguishable from satire something something.
BotoxAgent
Member
It's time for Mitt to come out and say he is a Metallica fan (while accidentally quoting a Black Sabbath tune in his endorsement)
speculawyer
Member
Maybe Santorum can have a new campaign slogan. "Metal up your ass, not dicks up your ass."
I do agree that you can still sorta achieve.
But here's the thing:
By definition of an uneven playing field those that start lower on the playing field will ulitmately achieve less than they would have had they started on the higher end of the playing field.
For example, someone who worked up from collecting bottles to get by might make it Director for some large firm after years and years and years of hard work. Whereas someone on the higher end would get that job as their starter job. By the time the person that worked their way up there gets their they've expended all their energy and don't have enough to go to the next level.
Further, there is the issue of latency.
Lemme give you a real life example.
My parents gave me guitar when I was about 15 and when I really began to try I found I was good at it. More than good. In six months I learned everything my first teacher could teach me. Eight months after that I learned everything the next teacher could teach. By the time I was 17 I was studying at a college level. Now ultimately I burned out and gave it up in favor of starting a family and all that. However, stop and consider, how much better would I have been if we had the money for guitar and lessons when I was 10 instead of 15? When I finally got to a high enough level I was up against people that had been playing with dedicated teachers since they were 6. Could I hold my own against that? Yeah, sorta. But could I really compete? Not realistically. I would spend 8 hours practicing to be able to keep up with stuff they could do with just two hour's practice.
Just because people can succeed in an uneven playing field doesn't mean it's fair or even acceptable.
planar1280
Banned
Obama catches Linsanity
...meanwhile GOP candidates trying to figure out Lin's Parents' immigration status.
...meanwhile GOP candidates trying to figure out Lin's Parents' immigration status.
huh, allow me to join the fun:
I grew up in a conservative military (no surprise with over 80% of the military being conservative) family. I used to identify myself as a "staunch conservative" whenever politics were discussed. I remember having a disdain for all things government (without ever really knowing why), being 100% against gay marriage (thinking that civil unions were good enough), being 100% for the Iraq War, having full faith in the "Free Markets" ( :lol ), and watching/listening to a lot of Fox News / AM radio. Voted straight Repub through 2006.
I guess I started to "change" after I graduated college (Electrical Engineering in 2003) and landed my first job in construction industry. I traveled for work a good deal those first few years while training, and listened to a ton of AM radio on the drives. I began realizing more & more how much bullshit is spewed by those nutjobs on AM radio. Working in the construction industry shattered any notion of a "Free Market" I had. (the degree of corruption in that industry is astounding)
And the more I listened to the AM pundits / watched Fox News, the more I realized I never really had the Persecution Complex so many on the (religious) Right appear to have. I have never felt as if my Christain faith was under attack. Nor did I, after being out in the "real world" for a few years, feel as if the govt was out to get me like I had been led to believe.
But I still couldn't bring myself to vote for them dirty liberals. Then the 2008 primaries came around, and the Dems seemed to have it much more together. Obama was actually first politician I could identify with. But I liked McCain, I really did. He seemed like the moderate, center-Right candidate I wanted to lead the country. Then came Palin, who reminded me exactly why I was questioning my ideology. Watching a few of her rallies really disgusted me.
So, I ended up voting for Obama in 08, and haven't looked back. Debates since then over HCR, the Stimulus Bill, and Student Loan reform really only pushed be further to the Left. I realized how dumb I was to oppose gay marriage. And probably the most shocking thing of all (to me) was that having a kid 3yrs ago made me pro-choice. It's tough work to raise a kid, and I wouldn't want anyone to raise one until they are ready.
I grew up in a conservative military (no surprise with over 80% of the military being conservative) family. I used to identify myself as a "staunch conservative" whenever politics were discussed. I remember having a disdain for all things government (without ever really knowing why), being 100% against gay marriage (thinking that civil unions were good enough), being 100% for the Iraq War, having full faith in the "Free Markets" ( :lol ), and watching/listening to a lot of Fox News / AM radio. Voted straight Repub through 2006.
I guess I started to "change" after I graduated college (Electrical Engineering in 2003) and landed my first job in construction industry. I traveled for work a good deal those first few years while training, and listened to a ton of AM radio on the drives. I began realizing more & more how much bullshit is spewed by those nutjobs on AM radio. Working in the construction industry shattered any notion of a "Free Market" I had. (the degree of corruption in that industry is astounding)
And the more I listened to the AM pundits / watched Fox News, the more I realized I never really had the Persecution Complex so many on the (religious) Right appear to have. I have never felt as if my Christain faith was under attack. Nor did I, after being out in the "real world" for a few years, feel as if the govt was out to get me like I had been led to believe.
But I still couldn't bring myself to vote for them dirty liberals. Then the 2008 primaries came around, and the Dems seemed to have it much more together. Obama was actually first politician I could identify with. But I liked McCain, I really did. He seemed like the moderate, center-Right candidate I wanted to lead the country. Then came Palin, who reminded me exactly why I was questioning my ideology. Watching a few of her rallies really disgusted me.
So, I ended up voting for Obama in 08, and haven't looked back. Debates since then over HCR, the Stimulus Bill, and Student Loan reform really only pushed be further to the Left. I realized how dumb I was to oppose gay marriage. And probably the most shocking thing of all (to me) was that having a kid 3yrs ago made me pro-choice. It's tough work to raise a kid, and I wouldn't want anyone to raise one until they are ready.
speculawyer
Member
Aww . . . he is really after my heart isn't he?
I doubt they really want that though . . . they've just realized that you have to act like dicks with GOP. So they now realize they have to ask for $10k and will negotiate back down to the $7500 value. Shhhh.
speculawyer
Member
Can you give any insight on the cognitive dissonance of hating all things government but being in the military? Isn't that basically hating your own existence? Is there just a huge logic loophole that everyone pretends doesn't exist?
I knew Obama was a Commie.
Manmademan
Member
to be fair, just about every aging metalhead I know that was a fan back in the days is a lunatic, foaming at the mouth republican now. He's just giving the fans what they want.
In my experience government in so far as the military is concerned is equated with red tape that permeates every facet of military culture. So, form filling, paper pushing, that sort of thing that gets in the way of their "jobs." The military is viewed as a patriotic, self-sacrificing group of individuals while the government gets in the way of everything. The government (or Democrats) also wants to cut their funding and leave the military underfunded, understaffed and without means.
speculawyer
Member
Interesting. I wonder why that is.
speculawyer
Member
But doesn't the military generally run itself? Congress doesn't really boss them around.
And the Democrats cutting funding .. . well, that is smaller government! More cognitive dissonance. If they want more funding, they should at least be consistent and be for more taxes to pay for that funding.
It always seems bizarre.
Flying_Phoenix
Banned
I'd also like to add that me getting a small taste of city life had really led me to understand why minorities keep complaining about racism.
Having my bags confiscated in front of the line in the airport, the police CONSTANTLY harassing my brother's friends nightclub because they don't want minorities in that area despite them rarely causing commotion (I saw this with my own eyes), being followed around in a department store being sure that I didn't steal anything. If I lived in Milwaukee I would seriously go insane. And all of this is like 18 hours of being in the city.
Having my bags confiscated in front of the line in the airport, the police CONSTANTLY harassing my brother's friends nightclub because they don't want minorities in that area despite them rarely causing commotion (I saw this with my own eyes), being followed around in a department store being sure that I didn't steal anything. If I lived in Milwaukee I would seriously go insane. And all of this is like 18 hours of being in the city.
Manmademan
Member
not really that hard to figure out. 80s and 90s metal was by and large the music of the disenfranchised poor and working class white youth.
These fans grow up, stay poor and disenfranchised, blame immigrants and minorities for their problems, gravitate towards politicians who tell them what they want to hear and give them easy targets to blame their problems on, and *poof*- die hard republican voters.
note that this example is drawn explicitly from my own experiences, and is not a generalization of all metal fans.
RustyNails
Member
You should really post more in poligaf discussons Ron. It's really good to read opinions coming from individuals having such diverse backgrounds, such as yours.
Congress doesn't directly boss the military around but they are involved in a lot of important decisions, like when to go to war and the budget. So in many ways Congress is viewed as an overlord class to many in the military. Don't forget that the chain of command leads directly to the President, which is emphasized pretty much everywhere in the military so ultimately any decision that your local branch/base/org makes can be tied up all the way.
To answer your second question:
There are a lot of people who depend on the (to use a sometimes inflammatory term) military industrial complex for their livelihood and don't like to see the government cut into their paychecks. Anecdotal evidence, but almost everybody I know from high school is still connected to the service in one way or another (some active duty, some military spouses). I can count the number of people who aren't on one hand, and many of those had civilian parents. People right now are scared shitless of the coming cuts, my girlfriend's mom works on Scott AFB and there is huge anti-democratic sentiment there right now because Obama forced the Republicans to accept a deal that would cut military spending.
People like to make jokes about it but the US military is probably the biggest welfare project in the history of welfare projects. This is the type of stuff that the New Deal couldn't even begin to touch.
Black Republican
Member
whats the new bellweather state/s this year for the general election, since Missouri lost it back in 08
Manmademan
Member
100% accurate. there are more than a few towns that are absolutely dependent on the military bases in their area. Threaten to close one, and you get amazing levels of public outcry, regardless of how necessary those bases are.
Toss in companies like boeing or lockheed that obtain billion dollar contracts to build planes, fighters, transports, etc (and there are a lot of these as well) and you're looking at a massive number of jobs directly dependent on largely unneccessary defense spending.
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