Thank you! You conveyed what I was saying perfectly. When liberals buy in and help feed the conservative narrative, is it any wonder why the Dems lose so often? MSNBC's meltdown was a damn perfect example of this.
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PoliGAF 2012 |OT4|: Your job is not to worry about 47% of these posts.
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Thank you! You conveyed what I was saying perfectly. When liberals buy in and help feed the conservative narrative, is it any wonder why the Dems lose so often? MSNBC's meltdown was a damn perfect example of this.
The blame should be laid at the fault of the media, who are theoretically the arbiters and bearers of knowledge, and who are also supposed to be responsible for pressuring the politicians to tell the truth, just as the viewers pressure them to provide value. At this point I think the sooner cable news dies the better and I think you should all stop watching television and tell all your friends to also stop -- it just encourages them.
edit: This applies to the above post as well. The problem isn't that liberals don't lie as much as conservatives, the problem is that the media has created an environment where lying is a profitable strategy, when their job is to do the opposite.
McCain was an idiot though.
I don't want to sound egotistical here, but I'm pretty sure that even though I'm a foreigner that I know more about the candidates, their respective policies, the actual state of the US economy and taxes, and what is at stake in this election than 90% of Americans.
The apparent percentage of the American population that in relation to this election is either disengaged, misinformed, racist, simply stubborn to the point of undermining their own interests, and/or living in a pretend parallel universe is staggering looking in from the outside.
ryutaro's mama
Member
Romney is a genius?
My point is, look at Obama in that video--he is engaged, animated and clearly wants it.
What McCain did in that video is irrelevant.
Officerrob
Banned
I'll ask again, to all you complainers on here: Have you donated? Are you volunteering? Or are you going to sit behind your computer and continue to do nothing?
You act like Romney is much better, he can talk the talk if he isn't challenged properly. We've seen what he looks like when he is, by anyone.
You don't sound egotistical at all. You are simply stating the truth.
obama is gonna have to win the debate 60/40 just so it can be called even. the media already thinks of romney as the superior debater and they are going to give extra points to romney just as long as he stands there smiling and not letting anything obama says get to him. its going to take a really good debate performance for them to declare obama the winner.
I've donated, but I'm not really one of the main panicking people on here. Just nervous about the next debate.
I'm not too nervous about it, although I'm certainly more nervous about the election than I was two weeks ago. I don't know what the fuck happened in the last debate--people joke that Obama looked like he was on ambien or something and it's really not much of a stretch--but I can't imagine we'll see a repeat of that. Obama was really off his game that night and I think he's got a fire under his ass now.
Well then I guess we can hope the media apparatus turns around or that Barack actually shows up to a debate. Pick which is more easily achieved.
This. Obama looked and felt like a drone up there, just spewing stuff. Romney, conversely, looked animated and enthusiastic. That goes a long way in making you believe his BS. That's why Biden won, if not at the very least tied, his debate against Ryan. Obama needs to present that person on Tuesday. Nothing less is acceptable.
StickSoldier
Member
Is Romney gonna win cuz he's apparently hotter than Obama?....
Anyone see the interview by Ron Allen with the "undecideds" for the VP debate? What a laughable bunch they were. When he asked them why they haven't made their minds up, one guy answered "Well we have jobs!". Come on dude, it takes about an hour to research each sides stance on issues. A lot of people have full time jobs and have made up their minds. I don't understand these people.
This is a ridiculous post. Neither is more likely to happen if you hope for it. One of them, you can actually do something about, if only in a small way, by discouraging people from watching cable news and encouraging them to read bloggers and social media instead.
ryutaro's mama
Member
Let's not forget folks--debate season is a job interview.
On that night, Romney, not Obama, looked like he wanted the job of POTUS.
Bam Bam Baklava
Member
I better buy some Mitt Romney stakes on intrade. He's gonna be shooting up to 80 by next week.
Frank the Great
Banned
in retrospect, didn't the 47% video drop at a terrible time? obama was already riding high on the convention bounce and didn't really need it.
it would have made an excellent october surprise. missed opportunity.
it would have made an excellent october surprise. missed opportunity.
Angry Fork
Member
Matthews has always said he's an Obama supporter it's no secret. He's not trying to be Walter Cronkite, it's not who he is. Being a journalist doesn't mean you have to handicap your emotions. I don't even really like Matthews that much I don't watch him or anything I just don't think he deserves that much hate for putting the flame under Obama's performance.
There has to be a leftist alternative to fox news. I don't think msnbc is leftist enough but it is what it is. I wish Olbermann was still there he's the calm intellectual left pundit people want (and there is no equivalency between him and Oreilly no matter how much people want to repeat that lie).
Republicans cover for republicans because they all have the same agenda which is steal from poor to keep rich happy and disenfranchise minorities/women if you can in the process. Leftists don't want to cover for Obama because if they do then Obama has no incentive to go further left. If we don't rage about his civil liberties, foreign policy and bank-happy shit then why should Obama change anything? He would have no dissenters and can keep doing the Reagan pandering because he's obsessed with being a non confrontational centrist (centrist within modern day obviously he leans right).
Okay so it's not something people should do 1-2 months away from the election I agree with that since he's not going to adopt new 'radical' stances but then leftists rage throughout his term and they still get blamed for it, as if they're the wrong ones. I can't count how many times people in poligaf give so many excuses for Obama and say people further left should shut up and equate them to Ron Paul followers. Then when are leftists allowed to voice criticism?
The reason people raged at Obama's debate performance is because they feel his centrist stuff will cost dems the election/debate, not because they hate him and want to see him fail. And guess what it did cost him the debate, then Matthews goes into stage 9 red face basically saying what happened/i told you so. If Obama hadn't caught any heat he would do the same thing in the 2nd debate guaranteed, now there's a chance he'll grow some balls and prepare for the 2nd one because dems went ape shit.
Dems needed to band together to get shit done when they had house/senate and failed because they tolerated the shitty moderates that held hands with republicans. And it didn't help that Obama was a moderate so he couldn't be a proper leftist leader for his party. If dems win house/senate the moderates need to be verbally abused until they submit so real progressive issues can be put on the table and things can get done.
If that happens I will 100% support them and stop the bad mouthing but I have a tough time thinking Obama will change especially when he's kept saying recently that he thinks republicans will be nice to him if he wins. He's either lying about that just to appear nice and then will become stronger when he wins, or he's delusional.
I hate the way the media builds up undecided voters to be paragons of truth and wisdom, when in reality they're lazy dumb fucks who pretend they're better than everyone who has already picked a side.
Yea, it would have been great to hit him with right now. It feels like they used up all their big shots during the summer, unless they're trying to figure out how to leak his tax returns (god we can only hope).
This is an accurate observation.
I think you're overreacting a bit. Obama has to play with the hand that he has been dealt. He tanked in the debate and allowed the narrative to cut into his lead, and that's his fault. Pinning the blame on the media at this point is a fruitless effort.
He did good with his explanation of why Romney's Medicare plan was crap. He just needs to do that with every issue. It should be easier now because Romney's gambits (flipping positions; the mysterious six studies supporting his tax plan) are out in the open, so Obama can prepare for them. Romney's element of surprise will be over. Beyond that, Obama needs to convey an overall message as to why his vision for the country is better than Romney's. He's not gonna be emotional like Biden or Clinton, but he at least needs to come off as authoritative.
I think people want different things from candidates in debates. During the first debate, people just wanted Romney to appear presidential and not do anything stupid. It was a pretty low bar to cross. That won't be enough during the next debate. People will want specifics from Romney about how he is going to accomplish what he says he will, especially after Paul Ryan kept dodging questions on specifics in the VP debate. Those specifics will be hard for Romney to give considering Romney made a bunch of promises that are impossible to keep. Obama needs to put him on the defensive by pointing these inconsistencies out. Liberals (especially in the media) can help this process by pushing the narrative that Romney's plans don't add up, rather than fall into the trap of analyzing the contest as a horse-race and wringing their hands constantly.
Obama can't fall into the trap of only attacking Romney though. He needs to give people a reason to vote for him, rather than just against Romney. Relying on scaring people away from your opponent is a loser's strategy. Just ask John Kerry, George H. Bush, Walter Mondale, and Jimmy Carter. Obama needs to offer his own vision as to what he wants to do with the country. I don't expect him to invent an entire new platform on the spot, but I do think that he needs to highlight his record and explain how a second term will allow him to expand on those successes. I think this will be Obama's biggest challenge. For whatever reason, he has trouble making global arguments and seems to prefer to proceed politically issue by issue, point by point. Still, he does have a record that he can run on. He just needs to highlight it.
Yeah, can you imagine what that video would have done for Obama had it not been released until just now? Then again it's sad to think of how much of a difference that would make. Apparently a presidential candidate saying "go fuck yourself you lazy slackers" to half the country (or video thereof) doesn't anger people so much just a month after it happens. What a joke politics and elections are, having to cater to the whims of dipshit low information voters. It's like a game of herding as many headless chickens onto your side as possible before time runs out.
ryutaro's mama
Member
Do you think having millions of viewers see Chris Matthews meltdown IMMEDIATELY after a debate (when the President performed less than he was capable) was a good or neutral thing?
It's a horrible thing for viewers to see. If the sources they trust can't hold it together in crisis, why should the viewers at home do so?
If I see a trust source freaking the fuck out, I might do that shit too. Now extrapolate that across millions of viewers...Fox was more than happy to push that narrative too.
Rachel Maddow was a shining example of how to act that night but she was overshadowed by the crying fanboys.
My point is that pinning the blame on Obama is ALSO a fruitless effort, so why not do the pointless thing that's actually correct?
TheHeretic
Banned
I recall getting pounded for calling the Obama debate an implosion, what happened to everyone who believed the Obama victory was on lockdown? Romney is the favourite, we are just waiting for the polls to catch up now.
It's his fault for collapsing on the national stage and embarrassing himself in front of the country. It's going to take incredible performances to bounce back from this.
It's his fault for collapsing on the national stage and embarrassing himself in front of the country. It's going to take incredible performances to bounce back from this.
Byakuya769
Member
I just saw Keith Olberman described as a "calm intellectual." You guys are seriously starting to do harm to my health.
The polls don't show this, but it's because they're behind? Do you have any actual reason why you believe Romney is the presumptive favorite now besides him winning one debate?
The polls don't show this, but it's because they're behind? Do you have any actual reason why you believe Romney is the presumptive favorite now besides him winning one debate?
My larger point is that a lot of people in this thread have said that we just have to accept that the media will be useless at providing accurate information to the public, because it's business as usual, except that, historically, it's actually more like a warning sign of a failing democracy when the media stops pointing out deception on the part of political leaders. We should not accept it, we should actively resist it.
You voted for W TWICE, they will most likely vote for Mitt to put them in a deeper hole than they already find themselves in and they deserve it if they put this guy in office.
ryutaro's mama
Member
Will you be resisting when you boycott watching the next debate and post game show?
PhoenixDark
Banned
The spin and blame aimed at TV personalities is just pathetic. At the end of the day Obama turned in arguably the worst debate performance of an incumbent in modern history. There is no historical precedent for a bump this large going to a challenger after a debate, or for the margin of victory undecided voters gave him in snap polls. You can blame Matthews, Schultz, etc all you want but ultimately the buck stops with the president. He failed, 70 million people saw it live, and that is what is driving this huge Romney surge.
Has the media extended the story? Sure. But they did the same with the 47% video, which in turn extended it's relevancy and poll impact, and no one here complained (or attempted to unskew polls and remove the bounce from polling). This is what they do: they latch onto a story and bleed it dry, then move on to the next one. The problem for Obama is that the next big story for the media to feast on is Tuesday's debate. If he doesn't get his act together we will see another week of this hemorrhaging, and Barack Obama will lose this election. Again, the only person to blame for that will be Obama. He apparently had this election locked up, but couldn't take the time to properly prepare for a debate with a man he allegedly loathes.
Republicans spent the summer crucifying Romney for running a feckless campaign, and you guys loved it. Many days were spent relishing in the schadenfreude on Fox News, Limbaugh, Laura Ingram, and the host of other conservative personalities who were jumping ship. Yet the minute liberals face a similar crisis and start freaking out, you guys pretend like this is a purely liberal trait - that conservatives tow the party line and never falter. Stop projecting strength onto your opponents and face reality: winners act like winners, and losers act like losers. If Romney had gotten his ass kicked while attempting to move to the center, republicans would be in pure rage and butthurt mode this very moment, as the election slid from their grasp permanently.
Has the media extended the story? Sure. But they did the same with the 47% video, which in turn extended it's relevancy and poll impact, and no one here complained (or attempted to unskew polls and remove the bounce from polling). This is what they do: they latch onto a story and bleed it dry, then move on to the next one. The problem for Obama is that the next big story for the media to feast on is Tuesday's debate. If he doesn't get his act together we will see another week of this hemorrhaging, and Barack Obama will lose this election. Again, the only person to blame for that will be Obama. He apparently had this election locked up, but couldn't take the time to properly prepare for a debate with a man he allegedly loathes.
Republicans spent the summer crucifying Romney for running a feckless campaign, and you guys loved it. Many days were spent relishing in the schadenfreude on Fox News, Limbaugh, Laura Ingram, and the host of other conservative personalities who were jumping ship. Yet the minute liberals face a similar crisis and start freaking out, you guys pretend like this is a purely liberal trait - that conservatives tow the party line and never falter. Stop projecting strength onto your opponents and face reality: winners act like winners, and losers act like losers. If Romney had gotten his ass kicked while attempting to move to the center, republicans would be in pure rage and butthurt mode this very moment, as the election slid from their grasp permanently.
ryutaro's mama
Member
Agreed.
...I don't watch the debates on cable news? I've never watched a cable news show in my life, unless you count the Daily Show.
TheHeretic
Banned
The economic indicators are heavily against him, and those can reasonably predict most elections. His four year recovery has simply been too slow. Couple that with his abysmal debate showing and a decent looking competitor and you've got a president hanging on by a thread. It's his personal likeability that's saving him, but people want a better economy more.
As far as blaming the media and the voters, he has a responsibility to defend his record and ideas and he failed, period.
Well sure, I don't really disagree with the media sentiment but when I think about who deserves the blame for this past week's circus I think fruitless or not it has to be Obama. The media who are desperate for ratings and the ignorant public aren't going to change overnight, while there's a president who has been exposed to this for years and was a no show at an awful time. The one dude who knows better and can make a huge difference couldn't get it done and deflated the balloon.
Primaries. There's a reason that the Republican party has moved so far to the right even though Republicans fall in line behind their general election candidates. Mitt Romney was "the electable one" in the primary, but he still had to commit himself to a lot of pretty far-right things to win it. And now ain't nobody giving him shit for being too moderate (although lots of people think this). A few Congressmen got primaried in 2010 and the rest got in line. Yes, a lot of that was helped along by some people with deep pockets; it's going to be harder for people with an anti-corporate agenda, but that's still what we need to be doing (and this needs to start in fairly safe districts rather than on the national level). When it comes down to a two-candidate race you pick the better one and back them to the hilt.
Criticizing Obama for being too killy overseas is probably fine, though, as long as one's clear that Romney would be worse. Same for advocating for single payer or whatever. Attacks from the left probably don't actually hurt even during an election as long as the subtext isn't "and so he's not worth voting for"; it always needs to be clear that (typically) the Democrat is just way better than the Republican. One can support Obama while criticizing him from the left, even publicly and to a large audience, as long as the contrast between Obama and Romney is clear (Maddow does this to some extent, actually). What's stupid is offering horserace coverage of almost no journalistic value that both predicts and influences what undecided voters think about some campaign development and which buys into the other side's preferred narrative instead of trying to actually give viewers information that they might not already have by virtue of having just watched the goddamn debate five minutes ago ("Romney looked better up there" vs "Romney lied").
Also, Olbermann? Calm?
I'm completely on board with this. I watch Maddow and nothing else, cable-wise. I haven't even seen the clip of Matthews freaking out </holierthanthou>.
Angry Fork
Member
He never yelled to the point of losing his grasp of language which is what people here are condemning Matthews for and what I was referring to. And he absolutely was the intellectual leftist pundit that spent every day pointing out the fatal flaws of the Bush administration without cliche's or boring low IQ jokes.
I don't know how anyone could watch Olbermann's special comments and not feel he was a genuine intelligent passionate leftist or at least the strong liberal people want. Basically he raged without appearing whiney like Matthews. It wouldn't surprised me if he was a socialist at heart but just didn't admit it due to being on mainstream TV.
Yeah we've seen where that goes.
You obviously haven't been around here long, he's got a shtick. That shtick is doom and gloom regardless of what happened, Obama could have won while Romney yelled racial slurs and shat on stage into a baby's mouth and he would STILL be saying Obama will lose.
I've been following poligaf since late 2007. PhoenixDark's posts - trolling or not - have more logic behind them than most in this thread.
Vicetrailia
Banned
Really? Because he's a broken record, the buck never stops. Eternal doom city etc, etc. Complete bias. No reason to bother.
ryutaro's mama
Member
I said it, not everyone.
PD is just salty cause HilDawg got smashed in 2008 so now he just concern trolls to make himself feel better.
I know PD well. He used to stick his head into the NBA threads to talk up LeBron James only to see him go home year after year.
PD isn't hitting nerves or fooling anyone.
Wow dude, just wow.
I think what's so frustrating for me is that I'm a dual citizen currently residing in Canada. As much as I want to turn all my anxiety into something productive, I can't. So instead of helping out, I'm just constantly refreshing web pages for poll results and commentary, and driving myself crazy. In 2008 I was basically searching "Obama" on Google news every five minutes with nervous anticipation, but this year I'm almost afraid to look. All that doom, I guess.
Trying to be more zen right now. I just hope we see the bottom of this Romney bounce and at least a slight Obama rebound soon. Part of what's made it so bad is how smooth the sailing seemed to be all year, and how sudden the decline has been. Just a shock to the system, really.
But yeah, I definitely agree with everyone who says to go out and volunteer if you're able. I know I'd be feeling a heck of a lot better if I could.
Trying to be more zen right now. I just hope we see the bottom of this Romney bounce and at least a slight Obama rebound soon. Part of what's made it so bad is how smooth the sailing seemed to be all year, and how sudden the decline has been. Just a shock to the system, really.
But yeah, I definitely agree with everyone who says to go out and volunteer if you're able. I know I'd be feeling a heck of a lot better if I could.
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