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PoliGAF 2013 |OT2| Worth 77% of OT1

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pigeon

Banned
What I was getting at is that the statistics have no reason to be THIS bad. There is no excuse for having South American homicide rates period. There is no excuse to have such broken families. And again I'm sure that modern racism contributes much too this, but the general point is that things shouldn't be bad to this extent. There is clearly some problems within the culture that as a whole the community doesn't recognize as it should. I don't see how saying this is controversial.

It's not controversial -- actually, it's an extremely common position. Perhaps relatedly, it's ignorant and wrong! There is a reason the statistics are this bad. It's the reason I already gave you in my response -- that American society has engaged in a massive operation to impoverish and destroy black people and black culture for literally two hundred years, and that kind of long-term process has long-term effects. You can keep saying "there's no reason!" if you want to, but it just reveals your lack of understanding of how society, racism or history actually works.

Do you honestly believe that half of those kids wouldn't be doing better in life if they performed well in school?

I could make a good case, but it's not necessary. The question isn't whether they would be doing better. The question is whether there's a reason they don't perform well in school besides "black people are screwing up their own lives." As it so happens, there is.
 
what was interesting was Obama's remarks were quite balanced. Those that took up arms against his remarks basically proven themselves to either be racists or simply parroting the lines of racist/political opportunists instead of looking to what he actually said.

I saw a tweet from a conservative radio host that bitched about Obama talking about blacks being disproportionate victims of crime but not mentioning that they disproportionately make crime. Only, Obama did state that in his remarks. He simply never bothered to read/listen to them.

these people loathe Obama to an unhealthy extent.

I watched a clip of a Fox show (The Five) discussing it. The legal "expert" on the show railed against Obama for talking about Stand Your Ground when it had nothing to do with the case. Except...Obama specifically mentioned that Stand Your Ground was not cited by the defense or prosecution. It seems pretty clear that most of these people only listened to the clips of Obama saying he could have been Martin, and the profiling comment.

It goes back to many (not all) conservatives being unable to intelligently discuss race without feeling they are being attacked. Race/racism is victim talk to them, and the true victim can only be either a black conservative or a white person accused of racism.
 

Tamanon

Banned
I watched a clip of a Fox show (The Five) discussing it. The legal "expert" on the show railed against Obama for talking about Stand Your Ground when it had nothing to do with the case. Except...Obama specifically mentioned that Stand Your Ground was not cited by the defense or prosecution. It seems pretty clear that most of these people only listened to the clips of Obama saying he could have been Martin, and the profiling comment.

It goes back to many (not all) conservatives being unable to intelligently discuss race without feeling they are being attacked. Race/racism is victim talk to them, and the true victim can only be either a black conservative or a white person accused of racism.

Yeah there was some guy on CNN earlier saying President Obama was accusing all white women of being racists for some reason.

It's odd.
 
Pennsylvania isn't a Midwestern state.
I've seen it grouped with the Midwestern states before, at least culturally.

Why? I'm not saying it can't happen, but I'm curious why you think it will happen. Demographic shifts?
I think the GOP will adjust their platform to try and compete there, and once the Solid South dissolves they won't really have a choice. Whether that means moderating their social positions or embracing economic populism, either way every election conservative pundits brag about winning MN, PA, and MI and eventually I think they'll try making a real play for them. We probably won't see that for a while though.

Frank the Great said:
Yeah, the nice part is that with FL/NC/VA, Democrats don't even need the midwest states you mentioned. With respect to PA, though, let's be real here . . . Philadelphia is going to keep the state blue for the foreseeable future.
PA is interesting because the population growth in the rural districts and the growth in Philly basically cancels each other out, leading to a built-in 5 point advantage to Democrats, generally.
 
It's not controversial -- actually, it's an extremely common position. Perhaps relatedly, it's ignorant and wrong! There is a reason the statistics are this bad. It's the reason I already gave you in my response -- that American society has engaged in a massive operation to impoverish and destroy black people and black culture for literally two hundred years, and that kind of long-term process has long-term effects. You can keep saying "there's no reason!" if you want to, but it just reveals your lack of understanding of how society, racism or history actually works.

I'm honestly starting to assume that you aren't even reading my posts. For the third time I never even hinted toward "there is no reason!". What I am saying that the reason for these radical statistics aren't as dictanomous as you are making them. It isn't as simple as say "Well they experienced racism so there", similar it isn't as simple to say "Racism isn't the cause for everything so there". Is it reasonable to expect that black communities would engage on homicides more often then other ethnic groups? Yes. You see this across the first world. The problem however is how magnetized these problems are. Its not the fact that homicide rates are high, its the fact that they are of the levels of something found in some South American countries. This strongly hints that these problems aren't solely and only caused by racism. That others to some extent may fuel it to a notable degree as well.

I could make a good case, but it's not necessary. The question isn't whether they would be doing better. The question is whether there's a reason they don't perform well in school besides "black people are screwing up their own lives." As it so happens, there is.

Again just because they wouldn't be as likely to be as successful as there other ethnic counterparts due to going to highschool doesn't mean that makes it an excuse for HALF of black males to not focus on performing adequetely in high school. Is the problem due jot discrimination? Yes to a large degree, just look at the discrepancies between black and white callbacks. But never the less it shouldn't be as large of a problem as it is.
 

pigeon

Banned
I'm honestly starting to assume that you aren't even reading my posts.

Based on your posting history with regards to racial essentialism, that might be a good idea.

For the third time I never even hinted toward "there is no reason!".

Sure, but on the other hand:

What I was getting at is that the statistics have no reason to be THIS bad.

So you see where I got confused.

Its not the fact that homicide rates are high, its the fact that they are of the levels of something found in some South American countries. This strongly hints that these problems aren't solely and only caused by racism. That others to some extent may fuel it to a notable degree as well.

Why? You keep making this statement with no support.

The African-American community has lots of problems. One explanation is that there's some mysterious other problem with it in addition to race. Another explanation is that American racism against African-Americans is far more extensive and intense than most other examples of racial discrimination, and thus we should expect much more intense effects. The advantage of the second explanation is that the historical record agrees with it. What is the justification for disregarding it? Why does the evidence "strongly hint" at another explanation? Do you have an actual argument?
 
So you see where I got confused.
Ummm.....no? This is like exactly what I just said. How in the world does that = "Nothing is due to racism". Again reading comprehension.

The African-American community has lots of problems. One explanation is that there's some mysterious other problem with it in addition to race. Another explanation is that American racism against African-Americans is far more extensive and intense than most other examples of racial discrimination, and thus we should expect much more intense effects. The advantage of the second explanation is that the historical record agrees with it. What is the justification for disregarding it? Why does the evidence "strongly hint" at another explanation? Do you have an actual argument?
I keep stating that the statistics, compared to other minorities across the globe, are so enormously radical that some of these things may be as a community there are some things that should be focused on within that community. I have no idea why you are getting your panties in a bunch over this. This entire thread revolves around criticizing and offering alternatives of how American society can progress. Is it off limits that some communities within the American communities should be discussed? You are acting like I said "Black people are in snotty situations solely because they are lazy" or some shot. Its ridiculous.
 

Gotchaye

Member
This strongly hints that these problems aren't solely and only caused by racism. That others to some extent may fuel it to a notable degree as well.

I don't need a specific theory, but I'm a little confused as to what sorts of other causes you have in mind. What other options are there for explaining why black Americans and white Americans have different likelihoods of having particular characteristics besides "black people are essentially different from other humans" and "black people grow up and live in a different context than other Americans due to racism, historical injustice, etc." (I don't need this to be all racism, but just historicizing the situation of black Americans in general)? I can't really figure out what another sort of explanation would even look like. Do you have something else in mind, or are these other factors going to be essential differences between races?
 

pigeon

Banned
Ummm.....no? This is like exactly what I just said.

To be precise, it's exactly what you said you didn't say. You're complaining about me putting words in your mouth that I put there because they originally came out of your mouth.

I keep stating that the statistics, compared to other minorities across the globe, are so enormously radical that some of these things may be as a community there are some things that should be focused on within that community.

And as I've said in literally every one of my responses to you, it is not sensible to compare African-Americans, shorn of context, to other minorities across the globe.
 
I don't need a specific theory, but I'm a little confused as to what sorts of other causes you have in mind. What other options are there for explaining why black Americans and white Americans have different likelihoods of having particular characteristics besides "black people are essentially different from other humans" and "black people grow up and live in a different context than other Americans due to racism, historical injustice, etc." (I don't need this to be all racism, but just historicizing the situation of black Americans in general)? I can't really figure out what another sort of explanation would even look like. Do you have something else in mind, or are these other factors going to be essential differences between races?

I'll explain better.

Yes a lot of the problems with the black community is due to racism. Statistically your are more likely to get a job as a white male with a criminal record then a black male with strong qualifications. There is also the fact of the incarceration rate. However after hundreds of years of discrimination blacks no longer have much faith in the system. A fair share aren't as interested in pushing their children to do well in school. Many have the mentality that going through the system isn't the correct route as it betrayed the ethnic group for so long. However despite all the modern problems, there is room for a good sum of people I the black community to succeed within the system. This is something I feel that people like say Jesse Jackson should address, which is that while there is much discrimination in the modern age, success isn't impossible and they should encourage programs and community projects to make success more likely in those communities, much like Phoenix said. I never meant to imply that blacks were racially inferior.
To be precise, it's exactly what you said you didn't say. You're complaining about me putting words in your mouth that I put there because they originally came out of your mouth.

I still don't understand how you think "While there is definitely a reason for these effects they do seem a little to radical that it may not be just the instituion that causes it"

=

"The institutions have nothing to with it its solely the people."

The first line is literally word for word what's in that post and the previous one as well.


And as I've said in literally every one of my responses to you, it is not sensible to compare African-Americans, shorn of context, to other minorities across the globe.
Only up to a point. If a nation has homicide rates four times then a neighboring nation with similar ethnic makeup then there was likely a disconnect with certain parts of the institutions. There are many nations around the world like this and I'll leave it to the reader's imagination to fill it out for what nation they are most familiar with. Thus there is a fair share of the problem lies within the distrust of these institutions thus regaining trust within these institutions both through policy and the community is a big part of restructuring that community. Now obviously I wouldn't compare African Americans to those countries as their situation is different. But there are likely similar points that intersect between the problems with those communities which is a distrust of certain parts of the institutions. I admit that it isn't the best comparison but perhaps I will update this post later when I have more time.
 

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
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Jooney

Member
BTW PD, just wanted to mention that your posts in that Bams/Martin thread were seriously good shit. Thanks for that.

Co-signed.

PD, I hope you don't mind me re-posting one of them here, because it had a big impact on me. Without Cyan giving kudos I wouldn't have searched for it, and I don't want others to have missed out on a powerful post.

The dismissive and generally bitter reactions of some people towards Obama's comments really highlight a closing of the mind that has been going on for decades. Race and racism are complex issues that have not gone away, and will not go away. Yet racism today is still seen through the prism or either slavery or the 1960s: beatings, lynchings, blatant segregation. Because most if not all of these major things are not happening in 2013, and because we now have a black president, some seem quite convinced race is no longer an issue. And because of that, race has been swept under a rug. Any discussion of differences among races or racism is liable to be attacked as fostering discontent or ill - as if the mere mention of racism today will suddenly revive it from its deep slumber.

As Obama mentioned, racial profiling is not some long dead practice. It happens every day, every hour in this country. And the Zimmerman case, right or wrong, is seen entirely through that lens by many black people. If a person has spent most of his life being blatantly racially profiled during trips to the corner store, or while walking late at night, it should not come as a surprise that they view Zimmerman confronting Martin as an issue of profiling. After all, Martin went to a corner store and then attempted to go home before being pursued by someone. Zimmerman called 911 and complained about "these assholes" always getting away with crimes. Is it any surprise that black people, specifically black men, identify with Martin? We have been "those assholes" for most of our lives.

The general retort to all of this is that Zimmerman had black friends, and therefore clearly was not racist. Which, again, goes back to the point about racism as a concept being simplified today. Zimmerman never lynched a black person, nor did he refuse to serve a black person at a restaurant - therefore he's clearly not racist. I don't know whether Zimmerman is racist or not. Nor do I believe every white woman who hurriedly crosses the street (in broad daylight) when I'm behind her is racist. But I believe that Zimmerman assumed Martin was up to no good due to who he was: a young black male. Or, a young "dark" male if you want to harp on Zimmerman telling the operator that he thought Martin was black; I think it's safe to say he knew he was not white.

As long as we continue to shrink discussions of race, and get outraged that we're even discussing racism in 2013, we will always have this problem. Racism will always be seen as a double edged sword to many white people: to them, they feel as if they're being accused of something, as if racism is their fault or their grandfather's fault, as if we cannot discuss racism without putting white people on trial. And to those people I would simply say, imagine that feeling of assumed guilt nagging at you every day, every hour, every minute, for years. Decades. Every time you go into a store late at night, or every time you're driving in a nice car, or every time you accidentally lock yourself out your house and are outside looking for the key. Perhaps then you will know how many black people feel to an extent, and why this case is so personal to us.
 

Chichikov

Member
I'll explain better.

Yes a lot of the problems with the black community is due to racism. Statistically your are more likely to get a job as a white male with a criminal record then a black male with strong qualifications. There is also the fact of the incarceration rate. However after hundreds of years of discrimination blacks no longer have much faith in the system. A fair share aren't as interested in pushing their children to do well in school. Many have the mentality that going through the system isn't the correct route as it betrayed the ethnic group for so long. However despite all the modern problems, there is room for a good sum of people I the black community to succeed within the system. This is something I feel that people like say Jesse Jackson should address, which is that while there is much discrimination in the modern age, success isn't impossible and they should encourage programs and community projects to make success more likely in those communities, much like Phoenix said. I never meant to imply that blacks were racially inferior.
I think you guys are arguing a little bit on parallel tracks here.
Gotchaye makes a good point that if you reject the idea that the shade of one's skin makes you inherently different human being (and you really should reject that racist notion) then you're left with external factors in explaining the differences in black and white community, specifically the extremely disadvantageous starting point and systematic long term discrimination.
However, that doesn't mean that -
  1. if you could magically remove all discrimination and racism all the problems in the black community are going to get solved.
  2. the only way to improve the situation of black people in america is to fight racism.
That being said, I personally think that racism and discrimination is still a huge problem in the US and I can't really fault anyone who decide to focus mostly on that issue.
 
I think you guys are arguing a little bit on parallel tracks here.
Gotchaye makes a good point that if you reject the idea that the shade of one's skin makes you inherently different human being (and you really should reject that racist notion) then you're left with external factors in explaining the differences in black and white community, specifically the extremely disadvantageous starting point and systematic long term discrimination.
However, that doesn't mean that -
  1. if you could magically remove all discrimination and racism all the problems in the black community are going to get solved.
  2. the only way to improve the situation of black people in america is to fight racism.
That being said, I personally think that racism and discrimination is still a huge problem in the US and I can't really fault anyone who decide to focus mostly on that issue.

I agree. I am not saying "Institutional racism isn't why black people struggle", but more so while it is a huge reason why, it isn't the sole and only reason that contributes absolutely 100% to the community lagging in key areas (education attainment, social status, economic status, etc.). I feel that much of the black community should try to combat those reasons as well (which is why I gave the example of indifference toward the system that has bitten so hard in prior, and in many ways current, times).
 

thcsquad

Member
Vermont is the only one I can think of.

Western Massachusetts is every bit as blue as the Boston area, and by western I mean the part on the western edge of the state, adjacent to Vermont. This also goes for the rural counties in upstate NY that border Vermont and Massachusetts. Oh, and Maine. So really New England is just liberal, regardless of how urban the area is.
 
I agree. I am not saying "Institutional racism isn't why black people struggle", but more so while it is a huge reason why, it isn't the sole and only reason that contributes absolutely 100% to the community lagging in key areas (education attainment, social status, economic status, etc.). I feel that much of the black community should try to combat those reasons as well (which is why I gave the example of indifference toward the system that has bitten so hard in prior, and in many ways current, times).

This is just wishful thinking, though. Yes, victims should fight back. And, ultimately, they must. But what you're talking about is something a little bit different. That they should not fight back politically, but just be better people. And that's just naive thinking. Our society is responsible for this situation, and it is our society who has the duty to correct it. Lecturing impoverished black parents in impoverished areas to be better parents isn't going to cut it. Nor do those lectures satisfy society's obligation to fix the shitty cicumstances we've imposed on black people.
 

Videoneon

Member
Now obviously I wouldn't compare African Americans to those countries as their situation is different. But there are likely similar points that intersect between the problems with those communities which is a distrust of certain parts of the institutions. I admit that it isn't the best comparison but perhaps I will update this post later when I have more time.

Why are you saying that there are fundamental failings in minorities across the globe, and what exactly are they?

Recognizing institutional oppression as the original sin, it behooves society to work to eliminate discriminatory thought. The will to self-improve doesn't actually rectify the inequity of the society we live with.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
EV: I would quibble there. The effects of class, wealth, racism, and the like manifest in part in how they encourage or discourage people to be better people. Part of this is the lack of social wealth in parenting skills as shown by efforts of the Harlem Children's Zone. Another aspect is the real damage done to brain development by childhood stress.

Interventions on this level are possible and effective, and would mean making them better people, but I wouldn't engage in victim blaming here either.
 
This is just wishful thinking, though. Yes, victims should fight back. And, ultimately, they must. But what you're talking about is something a little bit different. That they should not fight back politically, but just be better people. And that's just naive thinking. Our society is responsible for this situation, and it is our society who has the duty to correct it. Lecturing impoverished black parents in impoverished areas to be better parents isn't going to cut it. Nor do those lectures satisfy society's obligation to fix the shitty cicumstances we've imposed on black people.

I completely agree. People can get mad all they want but at the end of the day everybody is just a product of their environment. I just feel that this is something I often see people of color often sweep under the rug when talking about the plights of these communities (while people of non-color radically overplay them). I feel that this has to be something that is talked a bit more in the open so there could be solutions that could address these problems more. I'll give an example of what I'm talking about. There has been much success in turning around some of the previous troubled schools in Harlem. This was done by creating gardening initiatives to engage students in working with the community. Now I'm not saying that Detroit, Baltimore, and Milwaukee would have perfect schools if they opened up gardens but more so should take note of elements that made it so successful. I'm not saying that people should tell black people in the ghetto "Go to college and get As to become a doctor freeloader!" but more so focus on programs and things to get those types of people more motivated and likely to partake in the system.

That being said, I can to an extent see why its such a taboo thing. If black people admit that there are problems within the community I can see many racists starting a dog pile on the subject.

I also completely agree with the bolded.
 
Interventions on this level are possible and effective, and would mean making them better people, but I wouldn't engage in victim blaming here either.

Interventions can ameliorate, but to analogize to the health care context, it's like treating people who waited to come into the emergency room because they couldn't afford to see a doctor earlier. Preventative care is far more effective and efficient than treating crises after they've been allowed to fester. Plus, we're talking about people here. I love that you mentioned childhood stress, because I think most people vastly underestimate how serious that is in terms of its contribution to antisocial behavior. Society has an obligation to create conditions in which childhood stress does not occur at all, not merely create mechanisms to intervene when it predictably does. And treating it after the fact is a complete dereliction of duty.
 
On a national level, the original wound has already occured. All we can do is try to reduce its relevance.

No doubt we can and should try to reduce its relevance. But I disagree that it's all we can do. We can make our society whatever we want, if enough of us decide to do so. We can eradicate the conditions that create dysfunctional people (of all races).*

* This is not to say we can create a utopia in which nobody ever acts in ways that are antisocial. But it is to say we can create a society in which antisocial conduct is minimized rather than maximized by our own collective stupid decisions to impose unstable economic conditions on people that encourage antisocial conduct.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
Sorry, I didn't mean to come off as pessimistic there, just that talking about prevention is a bit late strictly speaking.
 
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