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PoliGAF 2013 |OT2| Worth 77% of OT1

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Jooney

Member
Bernie Sanders takes on douchebag conservative economist on minimum wage:

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/07/...conservative-economist-over-living-wage-laws/

Good old Bernie. He doesn't take shit from nobody.

NPR had a great debate on the topic "should we abolish the minimum wage?". Jarred Bernstein took the two conservatives in the affirmative to the cleaners. Absolutely 100% worth a listen.

http://www.npr.org/2013/04/09/176272083/should-we-abolish-the-minimum-wage
 

Jooney

Member
http://www.buzzfeed.com/andrewkaczynski/fox-news-tackles-most-embarrassing-interview-ever-host-was-r

lol, fox news defends the interview with Aslan. He calls the guy "not a very good muslim."

A christian telling a muslim he's not a good muslim. Oh, I don't know, maybe he's....BIASED!?

But guys why do conservatives do so poorly with minorities at election time amirite

They can't help themselves. That original interview was textbook prejudice at play - the treatment of someone that is different with suspicion and mistrust.
 

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
So how would Republicans respond when confronted with the fact that a government shutdown wouldn't stop Obamacare? Take it away, Mike Lee:

Lee's communications director Brian Phillips dismissed the CRS report, saying it had nothing to do with what the senator and his allies -- including Sens. Ted Cruz (R-Texas) and Marco Rubio (R-Fla.) -- were pushing for.

"Maybe they could also ask CRS to do a report on what happens to Obamacare when pigs learn to fly," Phillips said. "No one is calling for a shutdown, so this report is not at all relevant to what Senators Lee, Cruz and Rubio are arguing."

Just to clarify, Tom Coburn asked the congressional research service what would happen if they shut down the government.


Would there be reason to?

I could be wrong, but I thought he wasn't allowed to carry a gun anymore in Florida?
 
So how would Republicans respond when confronted with the fact that a government shutdown wouldn't stop Obamacare? Take it away, Mike Lee:



Just to clarify, Tom Coburn asked the congressional research service what would happen if they shut down the government.




I could be wrong, but I thought he wasn't allowed to carry a gun anymore in Florida?

Actually they have pivoted to a new argument: pass a CR that includes a rider that ends Obamacare funding. The idea being that if all republicans hold firm, Obama will eventually be forced to sign the CR/Obamacare rider bill, thus killing the healthcare law.

A ridiculous notion to be sure, but it makes more sense than the original idea Lee proposed.
 

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
Good old Bernie. He doesn't take shit from nobody.

NPR had a great debate on the topic "should we abolish the minimum wage?". Jarred Bernstein took the two conservatives in the affirmative to the cleaners. Absolutely 100% worth a listen.

http://www.npr.org/2013/04/09/176272083/should-we-abolish-the-minimum-wage

Okay finished listening to that. Thanks for the link.

So many smh moments:

-Hoover guy constantly concern trolling about the plight of the poor
-Using Hong Kong and American Samoa to support your argument
-Constantly using anecdotal evidence as "research"
-Hoover guy saying he pays his housekeeper $20/hr because if he didn't, she'd find work elsewhere, which some how proves minimum wage isn't needed
-Continuously tripping over his own arguments ("minimum wage destroys jobs, but also we can't accurately measure that")


Jared (as usual) and his friend did a good job, but I have one minor beef with him saying that minimum wage laws are good because so many states have them, and why would they do so unless they were good? Sorry, plenty of states have de-regulation and low tax rates as well. Not indicative of much.

But other than that, great listen.
 
Angry Fork : Democrats :: Tea Party Members : Republicans

Even if that were true, it does not imply that there is anything wrong with Angry Fork. The Tea Party is not bad for the Republican Party because it puts pressure on it to move right. It is bad for the Republican Party because Tea Party people are morons. The Democratic party should be moved left, and so criticism of it and pressure from the left can only help.
 
Even if that were true, it does not imply that there is anything wrong with Angry Fork. The Tea Party is not bad for the Republican Party because it puts pressure on it to move right. It is bad for the Republican Party because Tea Party people are morons. The Democratic party should be moved left, and so criticism of it and pressure from the left can only help.
Don't think that was what Link was getting at. He's saying that Angry Fork's all-or-nothing approach is harmful to his positions and the Democratic Party, as the Tea-Party's been to the Republicans. Even if he is right in some instances.
 
Even if that were true, it does not imply that there is anything wrong with Angry Fork. The socialists are not bad for the Democrat Party because it puts pressure on it to move left. It is bad for the Democrat Party because socialists are morons. The Republican party should be moved right, and so criticism of it and pressure from the right can only help.

Somewhere, someone is making the same argument you did but from the other side.

Don't think that was what Link was getting at. He's saying that Angry Fork's all-or-nothing approach is harmful to his positions and the Democratic Party, as the Tea-Party's been to the Republicans.

EV is "pro-purity" of parties.
 
Somewhere, someone is making the same argument you did but from the other side.

And they are wrong, while I am right. Does that seem impossible to you?

Also, it's not really about party "purity." I don't think parties need to be perfectly pure. But the entire point of parties is that they stand for certain principles and policy ideals (hence party platforms), and so require a fairly significant degree of uniformity among the individuals that comprise it. The bigger the tent, the more abstract and meaningless the principles and policy ideals must become and the less useful the party becomes to the individual.
 

Angry Fork

Member
Don't think that was what Link was getting at. He's saying that Angry Fork's all-or-nothing approach is harmful to his positions and the Democratic Party, as the Tea-Party's been to the Republicans. Even if he is right in some instances.

I understand the point of progressivism. I don't expect the democratic party to become dirty commies overnight, that would of course be ridiculous. But the dems are now a right wing party headed by an even further right president, with no end in sight.

Liberals keep ignoring this, justifying it, giving excuses, lesser of two evils so on and so on and it's not doing shit to turn the party back left. Liberals will likely continue to accept these changes until we live in Pinochet land and it's infuriating to witness.
 
Indeed, Paul Ryan’s entire reputation rests upon these kinds of abstractions. His budgets imagine huge cuts to Medicaid and food stamps and Medicare and so on, but they have no binding force. His allure to the conservative movement as a vice presidential nominee was that he’d be uniquely suited to turn these abstractions into reality.

Many close Congress watchers — and indeed many Congressional Democrats — have long suspected that their votes for Ryan’s budgets were a form of cheap talk. That Republicans would chicken out if it ever came time to fill in the blanks. Particularly the calls for deep but unspecified domestic discretionary spending cuts.

Today’s Transportation/HUD failure confirms that suspicion. Partially at least. Republicans don’t control government. But ahead of the deadline for funding it, their plan was to proceed as if the Ryan budget was binding, and pass spending bills to actualize it — to stake out a bargaining position with the Senate at the right-most end of the possible.

But they can’t do it. It turns out that when you draft bills enumerating all the specific cuts required to comply with the budget’s parameters, they doesn’t come anywhere close to having enough political support to pass.Even in the GOP House. Slash community development block grants by 50 percent, and you don’t just lose the Democrats, you lose a lot of Republicans who care about their districts. Combine that with nihilist defectors who won’t vote for any appropriations bills unless they force the President to sign an Obamacare repeal bill at a bonfire ceremony on the House floor, and suddenly you’re nowhere near 218 votes.

Yes, the House can pass things like the defense appropriations bill. But only because they’ve plundered other programs to provide the Pentagon with consensus-level funding. But they can’t fund most of the rest of the government without violating the Ryan budget.

“With this action, the House has declined to proceed on the implementation of the very budget it adopted three months ago,” said an angry appropriations chair Hal Rogers (R-KY). “Thus I believe that the House has made its choice: sequestration — and its unrealistic and ill-conceived discretionary cuts — must be brought to an end.”
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2013/07/gops_long-predicted_comeuppance_has_arrived.php

Told ya so.

I remember during the election season I kept arguing that the GOP will talk about cuts in the abstract, but once they have to put their pen to paper they have no idea what they are willing to cut because they aren't actually willing to cut much of anything. They simply wanted Obama to go on record on cuts to accuse him of trying to cut things (which is exactly what they did, btw).

This is why I've always said Ryan is a hack. There is no numbers in his plans, just ambiguity to be filled in later.

The GOP has no plan going forward in any realm other than to cut taxes. That's all they have.

And they are wrong, while I am right. Does that seem impossible to you?

And somewhere, someone else made the same claim.
 

East Lake

Member
I understand the point of progressivism. I don't expect the democratic party to become dirty commies overnight, that would of course be ridiculous. But the dems are now a right wing party headed by an even further right president, with no end in sight.

Liberals keep ignoring this, justifying it, giving excuses, lesser of two evils so on and so on and it's not doing shit to turn the party back left. Liberals will likely continue to accept these changes until we live in Pinochet land and it's infuriating to witness.
Yeah I was behind it until the liberal hivemind started to back Larry Summers.
 

Jooney

Member
Okay finished listening to that. Thanks for the link.

The Hoover guy's anecdotal evidence about his mother was especially laughable. If I was in the audience I would have asked him how he would have felt if the MW was abolished, how would he have felt that his mother's job was replaced by someone willing to do it at half the wages.
 

Angry Fork

Member
I just find your position funny and in some ways think you suffer from the same ills of those opposite you.

At some point when it comes to facts someone is right and someone is wrong. Do you think there is any factual, credible argument that says this country hasn't gone further right on capitalism, immigration, crime/'justice', civil liberties, etc?
 

CHEEZMO™

Obsidian fan
Hey guys maybe the truth is somewhere in the middle?


hnnnnnn I just popped a load on my stomach typing that. God im so reasonable
 
At some point when it comes to facts someone is right and someone is wrong. Do you think there is any factual, credible argument that says this country hasn't gone further right on capitalism, immigration, crime/'justice', civil liberties, etc?

When did a discussion about the direction of the country come up?
 

Oblivion

Fetishing muscular manly men in skintight hosery
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2013/07/gops_long-predicted_comeuppance_has_arrived.php

Told ya so.

I remember during the election season I kept arguing that the GOP will talk about cuts in the abstract, but once they have to put their pen to paper they have no idea what they are willing to cut because they aren't actually willing to cut much of anything. They simply wanted Obama to go on record on cuts to accuse him of trying to cut things (which is exactly what they did, btw).

Well, the thing is, I'm sure a lot of us thought this as well, but over the past couple of months, the GOP had actually become even more batshit than one could imagine (hard as that is to imagine). For example, aside from McCain and Graham, Republicans have for the most part stopped giving a shit about Pentagon cuts. Why? Cause the damage inflicted to Obama would be worth their sacred cows suffering a bit o fpain for a while. As time goes on, it's become harder and harder to find any constituency the Republicans wouldn't mind throwing under the bus if it means hurting the Kenyan socialist some how.
 

Angry Fork

Member
When did a discussion about the direction of the country come up?

You shat on EV for saying something that you think could come out of the mouth of a tea partier but for opposite ideals, except tea partiers are factually wrong on their ideals and where they think the country is. So I'm asking if you think tea partiers have the facts on their side that would justify the equivalency you made between EV and them.
 

Jooney

Member
http://talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2013/07/gops_long-predicted_comeuppance_has_arrived.php

Told ya so.

I remember during the election season I kept arguing that the GOP will talk about cuts in the abstract, but once they have to put their pen to paper they have no idea what they are willing to cut because they aren't actually willing to cut much of anything. They simply wanted Obama to go on record on cuts to accuse him of trying to cut things (which is exactly what they did, btw).

This is why I've always said Ryan is a hack. There is no numbers in his plans, just ambiguity to be filled in later.

The GOP has no plan going forward in any realm other than to cut taxes. That's all they have.

I've said this many times before here, but the giant, evil spectre of an insurmountable debt is nothing but a political whacking tool for those out of power to get back into power. When rubber hits the road, Republicans in Washington will fall all over themselves to make sure that cuts don't happen in their district, just someone else's.
 
I just find your position funny and in some ways think you suffer from the same ills of those opposite you.

Civic engagement is not an ill. Tea party activists have had great political success. They have successfully made Republican representatives completely immovable obstacles to any Democratic policy objective. That is an outstanding result for anybody who is opposed across the board to Democratic initiatives or goals. The problem is not with their political success, it's with their content, which is so atrocious that it will render even their political success short-lived. You seem incapable of differentiating between the two.
 

Jooney

Member
While I don't necessarily agree with the way Angry Fork phrases his ideas, it's clear to me what he is: the burning conscious of liberals. He is right to point out that liberals are far to quick to get behind their team even when their core principles are compromised, and that they're far too quick to concede on an issue in an effort to "get things done". Now I understand that compromise is essential in Washington politics, but the downstream effects are a body politic that is moving further rightward and an embolden opposition that sets the agenda far too often (see: the hysteria on debts and deficit).

As with most things I agree with EV. The Tea Party are successful because they organise, they have money, and they vote. They have articulated a clear agenda and they hold their elected representatives accountable.

If we want to see our agenda gain traction then we need to start demanding better from the people that are supposed to represent our ideas.
 

bonercop

Member
The difference between the tea party and their left wing equivalents, is that the latter tends to net you things like 40 hour workweeks and social security. I know liberals/social-democrats love pretending like rabble-rousing radicals are harmful to the left's ideals because they make you look less like adults or whatever, but that's some serious historic revisionism. The truth is, you've got communists, anarchists and trade unionists to thank for scaring elites into throwing the masses the occasional figleaves like fair labor standards.
 
Angry Fork's assertion that Obama is a conservative is easily dismissed when you consider that he made health care reform a priority (the gop only ever paid it lip service) and pushed for the repeal of Dadt. That he is a pragmatic liberal makes him look consecutive only to somebody far left and intolerant of any compromise. Hence the tea party comparison. The reference to Pinochet is also telling.
 

East Lake

Member
While I don't necessarily agree with the way Angry Fork phrases his ideas, it's clear to me what he is: the burning conscious of liberals. He is right to point out that liberals are far to quick to get behind their team even when their core principles are compromised, and that they're far too quick to concede on an issue in an effort to "get things done". Now I understand that compromise is essential in Washington politics, but the downstream effects are a body politic that is moving further rightward and an embolden opposition that sets the agenda far too often (see: the hysteria on debts and deficit).

As with most things I agree with EV. The Tea Party are successful because they organise, they have money, and they vote. They have articulated a clear agenda and they hold their elected representatives accountable.

If we want to see our agenda gain traction then we need to start demanding better from the people that are supposed to represent our ideas.
I don't think you quite get this. Obama is a Republican. I'll be here all week.
 
You shat on EV for saying something that you think could come out of the mouth of a tea partier but for opposite ideals, except tea partiers are factually wrong on their ideals and where they think the country is. So I'm asking if you think tea partiers have the facts on their side that would justify the equivalency you made between EV and them.

I don't think you understood my criticism. I think both are wrong, if that helps.

Civic engagement is not an ill. Tea party activists have had great political success. They have successfully made Republican representatives completely immovable obstacles to any Democratic policy objective. That is an outstanding result for anybody who is opposed across the board to Democratic initiatives or goals. The problem is not with their political success, it's with their content, which is so atrocious that it will render even their political success short-lived. You seem incapable of differentiating between the two.

Yeah, I didn't criticize civic engagement.

But you know what, I'd rather not get into a lengthy discussion about posters over politics so I apologize and we can move on.
 
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