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[Fuchsdh]

yet the Senate itself is kind of a clusterfuck, lol.

If the GOP had a majority in the Senate right now you would not be dropping to your knees and praising it

Well, they were smart enough to realize that people could be swayed to be pretty damn stupid, and the Senate is a check on those nutjobs.

Unfortunately gerrymandering and other political wonkery has hurt the efficacy of that system, but it's pretty clear most of these guys could never have a chance at a Senate seat.

 

[Avon Barksdale]

This is what I don't get. Who, exactly, are they representing here? It's not the health care system. It's not the insurance industry. It's not the poor/lower-class, as they'll finally have affordable health care. Is it the rich? Does this really affect them that much? It's mind-boggling.

http://www.salon.com/2013/08/10/nixon_runs_the_republican_party_again/

 

[Drakeon]

This is what I don't get. Who, exactly, are they representing here? It's not the health care system. It's not the insurance industry. It's not the poor/lower-class, as they'll finally have affordable health care. Is it the rich? Does this really affect them that much? It's mind-boggling.

It's simply proof of how much they hate Obama. Plus, they've been railing on about how this will literally destroy America for a good 4 years now, so they kind of backed themselves into a corner.

 

[Diablos]

Obamacare as a law does not matter to teaparty diehards. Had Mitt Romney won, they would not have bothered with it. Its all as about getting back at the Black Muslin President and to tarnish his legacy. They just dont want to "lose".

Romney totally would have repealed the law, day one, if he had the majorities.
And the GOP would have certainly delayed it at the very least. Mitt said as much in a recent interview that was a good option (in his view)

btw this popped into my head, no clue if you all would like it:

PoliGAF 2013 |OT3| Shutting down the Government over Obamacare is not "legitimate rape"

 

[Diablos]

Bill Clinton: GOP 'Begging For America To Fail'

Former President Bill Clinton weighed in on an increasingly likely government shutdown in an interview with ABC's 'This Week'. Clinton criticized Republican demands, as well as their obsession with Obamacare.

"I've never seen a time-- can you remember a time in your lifetime when a major political party was just sitting around, begging for America to fail?"

The House voted early Sunday to make major cuts and delays to the Affordable Care Act in exchange for continuing to fund the government. The bill marks the 43rd time that House Republicans have voted to defund or repeal Obamacare. The White House and Senate Democrats have already said that this kind of a demand is a non-starter.

Clinton also said President Obama was right to not take Republican demands seriously.

"If I were the president, I wouldn't negotiate over these draconian cuts that are gonna take food off the table of low-income working people, while they leave all the agricultural subsidies in for high-income farmers and everything else," he said. "It's chilling to me. The entitlement spending is going down as the unemployment rate drops and the economy grows. Half of the deficit's already disappeared. The rest of it just seems almost spiteful."

Clinton stayed mostly mum on wife Hillary Clinton's rumored 2016 presidential run, but he said he was "not at all" worried that any potential Obamacare failures would hurt her chances.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/...-government-shutdown-obamacare_n_4012148.html

House GOP vows that third version of CR would still change healthcare law:

WASHINGTON -- Even if the House of Representatives has to pass a third version of a continuing resolution to fund the government, it will include a provision that changes the president’s health care law, the House GOP Whip said on Sunday.

Hours after House Republicans (aided by two Democratic members) passed their second continuing resolution, which included a year-long delay of Obamacare and a permanent repeal of the law’s tax on medical devices, Rep. Kevin McCarthy (R-Calif.) appeared on Fox News Sunday to discuss the state of play. Host Chris Wallace pressed him to explain what the chamber had in store in the very likely case that the Senate tables that second bill and demands, once more, that the House pass a clean government funding measure.

McCarthy was largely coy on the matter, suggesting at one point that the Democratic-controlled Senate wouldn't necessarily reject the House’s offer. But he did insist that if the House had to convene again it would produce another bill that altered Obamacare.

“The House will get back together in enough time, send another provision not to shut the government down but to fund it and it will have a few other options in there for the Senate to look at again,” he said.

“We will pass a bill if the Senate [tables the CR] that will keep the government open, that will reflect the House, that I believe the Senate can accept, that will have fundamental changes into Obamacare that can protect the economy of America.”

This may just be a bluff on McCarthy’s part, but it does appear that House GOP leadership has committed itself to tackling Obamacare in any continuing resolution, even if it results in a government shutdown. The main question now is, what changes will they try to make to the law?

Asked this question, McCarthy didn’t offer specific approaches, save to say: “There are a lot of items that are on the table.”

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/29/kevin-mccarthy-obamacare_n_4012437.html

God dammit.

And what would those items be? I am thinking Vitter Amendment and messing with contraceptives for women for starters.

 

[ginger ninja]

at this point a shutdown seems all but inevitable, a part of me even wants it to happen..because even if there is a last min deal, this shtick would only be delayed for few months at an end..

 

[TacticalFox88]

I wonder what Europeans, who are watching this, are thinking right now.

 

[B-Dubs]

at this point a shutdown seems all but inevitable, a part of me even wants it to happen..because even if there is a last min deal, this shtick would only be delayed for few months at an end..

There isn't going to be a deal, the House GOP is asking for too much for that to happen. It's Boehner folding or nothing.

 

[Plinko]

Bill Clinton: GOP 'Begging For America To Fail'

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/...-government-shutdown-obamacare_n_4012148.html

I really hope Hilary wins and this guy ends up back in the White House. He needs to be in the news all the time again.

 

[PhoenixDark]

How do we know this for sure? What if Boehner is willing to play a longer game than anticipated and fall on his own sword if it means getting Obama at his most desperate and forcing him to delay or repeal PPACA? I know it sounds like a long shot, but all this confidence in Boehner magically coming to his senses is offsetting when there have been numerous statements from Republicans indicating that they are not willing to budge and are anticipating a shutdown. Their passion far exceeds the rhetoric. Many of them are dead set on all out chaos or Obamacare repeal.

Think about it. This is the biggest single issue driving the GOP (Obamacare). They've been calling for its repeal since the day it was passed, quite literally. 2010, 2011, 2012, 2013... the core of their message is that PPACA is a huge mistake and needs to be repealed. Its passage and the hysteria from the right no doubt played a huge role in Democrats losing their majority status in the House. This is like their rallying cry, they've never been this close to actually repealing the law, what makes people think even Boehner will roll over that easily? I know he assured lots of people he wouldn't allow default to occur, but the more the CR goes back and forth between the House and Senate, the more it just looks like a game that can be blamed on either party to Americans who are clueless about politics.

So the question isn't whether or not we will allow default, but under what terms... Boehner may look weak now but who knows how many mind games GOPers are willing to play behind closed doors to get their way. And you have to figure Congressional Dems are thinking about their political prospects here, too. The longer this drags out, particularly for red state Dems, the worse this will make them look if they have an election next year.

I guess nothing will convince you then. Obama will not fold on Obamacare, this close to the finish line. It would destroy the law and ultimately end his presidency. I'm VERY critical of Obama, but I cannot possibly imagine him caving on this.

The House has lost, period. The only question is when Boehner acknowledges it. There's not much of anything they can send back to the senate once the current CR plan fails. Maybe they'll send the Vitter amendment next, but even that is going to fail.

 

[rocketknight]

Cruz always pisses me of with how smooth he is on Sunday shows. People like him are supposed to be incoherent.

 

[B-Dubs]

Cruz always pisses me of with how smooth he is on Sunday shows. People like him are supposed to be incoherent.

He'll self destruct eventually, I just hope it'll be on a big enough stage that everyone will take notice.

 

[zero shift]

this is not true considering how countries with universal healthcare system aren't doing that much better than the US in terms of wealth

Just because countries have universal healthcare doesn't mean they are communist.

I wonder what Europeans, who are watching this, are thinking right now.

Going by Euro-Gaf, "Wait Americans have to pay how much for healthcare?"

 

[Link]

He'll self destruct eventually, I just hope it'll be on a big enough stage that everyone will take notice.

Evem if the general public doesn't see it, many in his own party already have the knives out.

 

[Cloudy]

This is what I don't get. Who, exactly, are they representing here? It's not the health care system. It's not the insurance industry. It's not the poor/lower-class, as they'll finally have affordable health care. Is it the rich? Does this really affect them that much? It's mind-boggling.

They are representing their political interests. If Obamacare is successful, it hurts Republicans in 2014 and 2016. That is why they aren't waiting till the debt limit to try this gambit. It's also why they won't let the "worst law ever passed" fail on it's own and are trying to sabotage it and dissuade people from signing up.

They are freaking out because the exchanges are going to launch on Tuesday and the world won't end. They are terrified that it just might work well for most folks.

 

[Cloudy]

I guess nothing will convince you then. Obama will not fold on Obamacare, this close to the finish line. It would destroy the law and ultimately end his presidency. I'm VERY critical of Obama, but I cannot possibly imagine him caving on this.

The House has lost, period. The only question is when Boehner acknowledges it. There's not much of anything they can send back to the senate once the current CR plan fails. Maybe they'll send the Vitter amendment next, but even that is going to fail.

Yeah, why would Obama negotiate on his legacy? He negotiated in 2011 cos he was facing re-election. He has ZERO incentive to deal and even if Red States dems in the senate get weak knees during a shutdown, he'll veto that shit.

Chris Matthews had a good analogy this morning on MTP. Unlike a typical ransom, Republicans are holding the money hostage while asking for the baby lol

 

[rocketknight]

Yeah, I liked that one too.

 

[Diablos]

I really hope Hilary wins and this guy ends up back in the White House. He needs to be in the news all the time again.

It's also pretty surreal, seeing him argue with George Stephanopoulos, given that they used to work together.

I guess nothing will convince you then. Obama will not fold on Obamacare, this close to the finish line. It would destroy the law and ultimately end his presidency. I'm VERY critical of Obama, but I cannot possibly imagine him caving on this.

The House has lost, period. The only question is when Boehner acknowledges it. There's not much of anything they can send back to the senate once the current CR plan fails. Maybe they'll send the Vitter amendment next, but even that is going to fail.

It may not even be a matter of caving under pressure, it could be the simple fact that the GOP, during a shutdown, will not commit to ANY CR unless it at the very least delays PPACA. I don't think the Tea Party gives a fuck what happens to the rest of the nation. The question is if Boehner will really come around and hash something out with Pelosi. Remains to be seen. But I'd love to see our quasi-Speaker back in action while Boehner has to babysit a bunch of children.

btw why did you go from 'Dark' to 'Pause'

 

[cartoon_soldier]

A lot depends on how the local media coverage goes I think

Once Fox News realizes shutdown is on they will switch to full on Obama blaming

 

[PhoenixDark]

It may not even be a matter of caving under pressure, it could be the simple fact that the GOP, during a shutdown, will not commit to ANY CR unless it at the very least delays PPACA. I don't think the Tea Party gives a fuck what happens to the rest of the nation. The question is if Boehner will really come around and hash something out with Pelosi. Remains to be seen. But I'd love to see our quasi-Speaker back in action while Boehner has to babysit a bunch of children.

You're probably right about house republicans overall, but eventually Boehner WILL pull the plug on this. Every poll shows people don't want a shutdown, especially if it's over Obamacare. After a week it'll be pretty clear to most people that the GOP overstretched, and Boehner will have to give up. Will republicans pass a clean CR after that? Probably not. But all Boehner needs is 20 republicans to get it passed. He's broken the Hassert rule before, that's not the issue. But he needed to put up a fight before breaking it this time.

I will say this though: if polls were to turn against Obama and he was forced to cave, I think the argument could be made that he sowed the seeds for this failure with his horrible handling of 2013. From taking needless, big losses on guns to the NSA fallout, which the White House believes has harmed his trust numbers.

btw why did you go from 'Dark' to 'Pause'

I kept making...sexually questionable jokes in the hip hop thread.

 

[Fenderputty]

Is the senate getting together today?

Reid said something yesterday about it didn't he?

 

[Diablos]

You're probably right about house republicans overall, but eventually Boehner WILL pull the plug on this. Every poll shows people don't want a shutdown, especially if it's over Obamacare. After a week it'll be pretty clear to most people that the GOP overstretched, and Boehner will have to give up. Will republicans pass a clean CR after that? Probably not. But all Boehner needs is 20 republicans to get it passed. He's broken the Hassert rule before, that's not the issue. But he needed to put up a fight before breaking it this time.

I will say this though: if polls were to turn against Obama and he was forced to cave, I think the argument could be made that he sowed the seeds for this failure with his horrible handling of 2013. From taking needless, big losses on guns to the NSA fallout, which the White House believes has harmed his trust numbers.

It is pretty disturbing if, best case scenario, all but ~20 GOPers will refuse to join Pelosi to prevent another recession. That is way, way too close for comfort moving forward with the debt ceiling in the future and is not sustainable. No one knows what the future holds for House GOP leadership, but the 2010 wave makes Boehner look like a moderate (how crazy is that). If we are to believe that the House stays red until 2020, we're stuck in the midst of a nightmare peddled by the minority party.

And that's what I mean by forced to cave. The GOP throws a hissy fit, the Government shuts down, people realize their financial security is at serious risk in an already lackluster economy, the GOP doesn't budge no matter what for weeks. People get scared and turn their heads while the ideological terrorist bloc of the GOP rips Obama's credibility and record to shreds and make him wish he lost last year. Americans turn back around and just want to see this end so another recession isn't triggered, realize PPACA is dust,, and go about their lives. Obama sees that people are starting to trust the GOP more and is left with no choice but to seriously allow for default or have PPACA delayed/repealed. I'm not just DIablosing. The is the GOP's grand opportunity to wreck the economy under Obama's watch and keeping his biggest legislative accomplishment from functioning properly, crippling the healthcare industry... while simultaneously crippling the economy as well.

Obamacare is popular but not by a margin that is necessarily worth bragging about. In the middle of a shutdown those numbers could move fast.

The difference between now and 1996:

-Bob Dole had a Presidential campaign to worry about, optics and all that jazz.
-The economy was MUCH better than it is today, thus people were more confident and not worried about what we've been through in present day over the past five years.
-The House GOP, while still filled with plenty of loons at the time, were not nearly as tenacious in holding the country hostage like this.
-Bill Clinton was much more popular at this point in time, iirc.

All of this factors into how a shutdown this time around can be fundamentally different.

It's totally possible.

I kept making...sexually questionable jokes in the hip hop thread.

Alrighty.

 

[ridethepiggy]

Holy shit diablos. Stahp.

 

[Diablos]

Holy shit diablos. Stahp.

What? It's an easy sell. Cruz and co. will hammer home that businesses/corporations are treated better than individuals under PPACA because they got a one year delay to 'help' them. In a moment of complete dysfunction from our elected officials and a populace growing all the more weary as days go by during a shutdown, it could easily start to tilt the scales towards people being slightly inclined to be content with PPACA being tossed aside/repealed.

 

[ridethepiggy]

What? It's an easy sell. Cruz and co. will hammer home that businesses/corporations are treated better than individuals under PPACA because they got a one year delay to 'help' them. In a moment of complete dysfunction from our elected officials and a populace growing all the more weary as days go by during a shutdown, it could easily start to tilt the scales towards people being slightly inclined to be content with PPACA being tossed aside/repealed.

You're just as bad as the RedState posters in believing the House except you don't support it. But gullability? Yea.

 

[TheLaughingStock]

Remember how Obama said he would cut the deficit by half in 4 years. It look a bit longer...but it has happened. Not that it was the right thing to do, but still...
http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2013/09/deficit-falling-falling-falling

Obama had little to do with it so he couldn't have done the wrong thing in that sense. The economy was the primary driver of the rise and subsequent fall.

 

[The Librarian]

Amanda Carpenter is bitching on Twitter that Nancy Pelosi skipped the House vote last night because she was celebrating her anniversary with her husband.

 

[Wilsongt]

Amanda Carpenter is bitching on Twitter that Nancy Pelosi skipped the House vote last night because she was celebrating her anniversary with her husband.

Well, she does work for Cruz and did work for Deminted. I mean... You really can't expect someone like that to have any sense whatsoever.

 

[Mercury Fred]

Amanda Carpenter is bitching on Twitter that Nancy Pelosi skipped the House vote last night because she was celebrating her anniversary with her husband.

Who the fuck is Amanda Carpenter?

 

[Black Mamba]

Shut up diablos. Obama will not cave. Do you understand the implication if Obama were to cave on every president to ever come?

Forget the law, forget his personal legacy, the precedent he would set would fuck us politics forever.

For fucks same he didn't even negotiate in 2011 on obamacare.

The GOP will lose this battle. 100% sure. The longer the shutdown lasts the more likely the house will become majority dem.

So stop fucking diablosing about it.

 

[The Librarian]

Who the fuck is Amanda Carpenter?

Speechwriter and senior communications adviser to Ted Cruz.

So stop fucking diablosing about it.

I wish people would stop paying attention to him (and quoting him).

 

[theprodigy]

So stop fucking diablosing about it.

but that's just what he does
(what a chicken little)

 

[B-Dubs]

Amanda Carpenter is bitching on Twitter that Nancy Pelosi skipped the House vote last night because she was celebrating her anniversary with her husband.

I see you messing with her a lot these days

 

[The Librarian]

I see you messing with her a lot these days

I follow her 'cause I want to get an insight of how the die-hard conservatives of the Republican party are thinking. Unfortunately, this also has the side effect of increasing my blood pressure considerably.

I gotta learn to not respond to her as often. >.<

But c'mon! It was an anniversary! Why are you bitching about that?! whyyyyyyyyyyy

 

[B-Dubs]

I follow her 'cause I want to get an insight of how the die-hard conservatives of the Republican party are thinking. Unfortunately, this also has the side effect of increasing my blood pressure considerably.

I gotta learn to not respond to her as often. >.<

But c'mon! It was an anniversary! Why are you bitching about that?! whyyyyyyyyyyy

I'm with you on this one. If you're going to take a night off, reasons don't get much better without something bad happening.

I'm just pointing it out. It's pretty funny to me.

 

[theprodigy]

I follow her 'cause I want to get an insight of how the die-hard conservatives of the Republican party are thinking. Unfortunately, this also has the side effect of increasing my blood pressure considerably.

I gotta learn to not respond to her as often. >.<

But c'mon! It was an anniversary! Why are you bitching about that?! whyyyyyyyyyyy

questioning the logic of Republicans is a bridge to nowhere, just quit while you're ahead

 

[The Librarian]

I'm with you on this one. If you're going to take a night off, reasons don't get much better without something bad happening.

I'm just pointing it out. It's pretty funny to me.

questioning the logic of Republicans is a bridge to nowhere, just quit while you're ahead

Also, I'm following her in anticipation for an inevitable meltdown when Republicans lose this thing.

I hope it's glorious.

 

[Link]

If anyone deserves to be shit on constantly, it's Amanda Carpenter. The only thing worse than an extremist like Cruz is the person supplying him with the ammunition.

 

[PhoenixDark]

What? It's an easy sell. Cruz and co. will hammer home that businesses/corporations are treated better than individuals under PPACA because they got a one year delay to 'help' them. In a moment of complete dysfunction from our elected officials and a populace growing all the more weary as days go by during a shutdown, it could easily start to tilt the scales towards people being slightly inclined to be content with PPACA being tossed aside/repealed.

jesus christ

Businesses and individuals don't want a government shut down. Republicans are getting blamed in every poll, that's not going to magically change unless democrats really fuck up. And the contraception shit only makes democrats' job easier.

 

[B-Dubs]

Also, I'm following her in anticipation for an inevitable meltdown when Republicans lose this thing.

I hope it's glorious.

If her complaints about Pelosi are any indication then it will be, it will be...

 

[zero shift]

People have to realize that the Republicans are just as divided and varied on issues as Democrats. They just cover it up because they are much more likely to agree on nonsense policies for the sake of agreement to rally up their base.

 

[theprodigy]

jesus christ

Businesses and individuals don't want a government shut down. Republicans are getting blamed in every poll, that's not going to magically change unless democrats really fuck up. And the contraception shit only makes democrats' job easier.

I wish people would stop paying attention to him (and quoting him).

just ignore him

 

[B-Dubs]

just ignore him

It's PoliGAF dude, diablosing is a hallowed tradition. As is complaining about it.

 

[KingK]

I'm watching Ted Cruz on MTP right now. Goddamn I don't know the last time I saw such a disingenuous and insufferable fucking jackass.

David Gregory is at least going in on him to an extent. But I really wish he'd push back against Cruz's constant complaints that "Democrat's won't compromise with us!" by bringing up the fact that attaching various political legislative aims to spending bills is historically unprecedented and fucks up the balance of power in the government.

 

[pigeon]

And what would those items be? I am thinking Vitter Amendment and messing with contraceptives for women for starters.

Obviously you've pretty much maxed out on the crazy pills by now, but for the record, Barro had a pretty hilarious article about how terrible an idea a Vitter Amendment CR would be:

...National Review's Robert Costa reports that House leadership is already discussing a Plan C for when the Senate rejects today's plan: passing a continuing resolution that funds Obamacare but includes the so-called Vitter Amendment.

That amendment would bar the federal government from providing subsidies to help members of Congress and their staff pay for health plans in the Obamacare exchanges....this amounts to a pay cut of several thousand dollars a year for most people who work for Congress.

This idea is bizarre, for two reasons.

One: ...If an otherwise-clean continuing resolution with the Vitter Amendment attached is adopted, congressional staff pay will be cut, but Obamacare implementation will continue as scheduled. Why would the anti-Obamacare dead-enders consider that to be any more acceptable than the approach they rejected three weeks ago? I am very skeptical that Boehner can get the votes for this in the House.

Two: Let's say this plan does pass the House. Republicans seem focused on the idea that this will be a tough vote for Senate Democrats...
But what if Senate Democrats just agree to the CR with the Vitter Amendment and it becomes law? That's a disaster for Republicans.

House Republican staffers are already furious with Sen. Ted Cruz (R-Texas) and the outside conservative groups that have forced them to turn these CR negotiations into a fight over Obamacare. News reports over the past two weeks have been filled with anonymous GOP staff quotes attacking Cruz. Cruz even mocked his House Republican staff detractors during his 21-hour floor speech, noting "There is no courage like the courage in Washington of the anonymous congressional staffer."

If a CR with the Vitter Amendment becomes law, the upshot will be that Cruz hijacked the House's legislative process over the CR, Obamacare is still being funded, and all Republicans have to show for it is a staff pay cut of several thousand dollars. That will not help to calm the already-ongoing civil war within the congressional GOP.

Of course, Democratic staff will also be angry about having their pay cut. But they will have a common enemy (the Republicans) and a plausible legislative strategy (repeal the Vitter Amendment). Republicans will try to direct staff anger toward the Democrats, but the name of the person responsible is right there on the amendment: Sen. David Vitter (R-La.), one of Cruz's allies in the defunding fight.

Republican members will be left saying the way to fix the pay issue is to repeal Obamacare. But the whole reason House Republican leadership and staff were resisting the Cruz approach on the CR is that they know repealing Obamacare while Barack Obama is president is a fantasy. In other words, Republican members will be saying they have no plan to undo the pay cut they "won" for their staff.

http://www.businessinsider.com/new-...ven-dumber-than-the-last-2013-9#ixzz2gIqyK37i

 

[fredrancour]

Why do I lurk poligaf.

I like feeling informed.

But the stress. The added stress from being informed will drive me mad.

 

[TacticalFox88]

Every time I say "Fuck this, I'm taking a break from politics."

*Next Day*

*cue something that drags me right back with outrage*

It's a cycle.

 

[smokeandmirrors]

Every time I say "Fuck this, I'm taking a break from politics."

*Next Day*

*cue something that drags me right back with outrage*

It's a cycle.

It really sucks cause it can be difficult to avoid too.

Maybe I should get a mod to ban me for a while so I can focus on class work until the shutdown is over. *sigh*

 

[Rhomega Beta]

Why do I lurk poligaf.

I like feeling informed.

But the stress. The added stress from being informed will drive me mad.

At least you're not watching Fox News.

 

[KingK]

lol Jon Huntsman has been calling out this Republican Rep. on MTP constantly. He brought up how the individual mandate was a conservative idea that came from the Heritage foundation and how the exchanges were also ideas Republicans supported in the past.

I certainly wouldn't vote for Jon Huntsman, but at least he has a degree of honesty and rationality. I would feel much more comfortable about our government if people like him were in control of the Republicans rather than the crazies who are there now.