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[bananas]

I'm conflicted.

I don't want a government shutdown because it will be very damaging to people who rely on services and employees who make a living.

However, if a shutdown does occur the odds of the Democrats retaking the House go up by a lot. Which would end the bullshit the GOP has been doing to hurt economical growth for the past 2.75 years.

So, it's really if you would rather have a huge hit right now to end this quicker, or keep on having having little hits for a longer stretch of time?

 

[j_k_redtail]

Cruz always pisses me of with how smooth he is on Sunday shows. People like him are supposed to be incoherent.

I wouldn't worry about it - he's forced his party into an unwinnable fight and once its over, he won't have many friends left in the GOP establishment. He's counting on his popularity to get him through the GOP primary but let's honestly remember who runs the party.

 

[ivysaur12]

Is the dam breakingbad?

@jonathanweisman: Rep. Charlie Dent, R-Pa: "I’m prepared to vote for a clean res tomorrow. It’s time to govern. I don’t intend to support a fool’s errand."

EDIT: Wow at that autocorrect. Whatever. Going to keep it.

 

[bananas]

Is the dam breakingbad?



EDIT: Wow at that autocorrect. Whatever. Going to keep it.

Something stops this train?

 

[thepotatoman]

A government shutdown is about the only way Republicans can get rid of Obamacare without holding the house, senate, and presidency. Even if they win the senate in 2014, Obama still has the veto, and even if they win the presidency in 2016, there's no chance they'll win the Senate that year given which seats are up for grabs.

That means they can't end Obamacare without Democrat's help until January 1 2019 at the absolute earliest. If the public still hates Obamacare by that point the thing deserves to be repealed.

They can yell Obamacare as much as they want to help them win elections, but if they actually want to get it done, will there ever be a better time to do it than right now? That's why I feel like they maybe in this for the long hull. I do think without public support they'll eventually have to budge, but they may try to hold out for a very long time. I think they'll probably take the shut down into the debt ceiling at the very least, which is Oct 17, and will tie both issues together. That's when things will get really crazy.

 

[ivysaur12]

Something stops this train?

Charlie Dent is fairly centrist on some social issues, at least as far as House Republicans go, so I don't think that a clean CR has come knocking just yet.

 

[The Librarian]

Is the dam breakingbad?



EDIT: Wow at that autocorrect. Whatever. Going to keep it.

RINO

 

[rocketknight]

Is the dam breakingbad?



EDIT: Wow at that autocorrect. Whatever. Going to keep it.

Cal Thomas is already hard at work on an attack piece.

 

[Y2Kev]

Obama should be worried that people dislike "obamacare" even after it goes into effect and they like the actual result. Though I guess chances of that are remote. They all like Medicare.

 

[kingkitty]

I was watching a Fox News health show about whether vaccinations are evil or not, but now there's a breaking news press conference of a bunch of House Republicans urging the Senate to work today. Pretty much saying that Reid/Obama is to blame if government shuts down lol.

The highlight so far is Representative Tim Griffin, who for some reason is holding a football.

 

[Maledict]

It's times like these you realize that our system isn't totally corrupted by money, because otherwise they would have all fallen in line with what the health care industry wants (ACA at this point.)

Unfortunately the system is supremely hobbled by a lack of common sense, but it's times like these I fall on my knees and thank god the founders didn't trust the rabble and created the Senate.

I don't think that is how it works. There are plenty of large western democracies which don't have a second chamber like the USA senate and function just fine - the UK is one in point.

In fact, i would argue that the senate has polarised your politics hugely. In other countries, parties get into power, pass their laws and then live and die by the success of those laws. In the states, the senate allows for opposition parties to block almost anything and the majority to claim it would have worked apart from the opposition. In other countries, if parties push batshit laws they get punished for it, and then head back to the centre. In the states parties can push batshit laws all the time and then they get blocked in the senate.

Ultately I firmly believe that a party that won a majority should be able to govern, and that includes passing their legislation and manifesto. Yes, that might mean you get some stupid crap at first but very quickly parties will gravitate to the centre because that's where the majority of people are. There's got to be a reason why American politicians is so absurdly polarised compared to an other western democracy.

 

[The Librarian]

In fact, i would argue that the senate has polarised your politics hugely.

The Senate, for all its problems, is not the cause of polarization in the US.

 

[Carpe Libertatem]

I don't think that is how it works. There are plenty of large western democracies which don't have a second chamber like the USA senate and function just fine - the UK is one in point.

In fact, i would argue that the senate has polarised your politics hugely. In other countries, parties get into power, pass their laws and then live and die by the success of those laws. In the states, the senate allows for opposition parties to block almost anything and the majority to claim it would have worked apart from the opposition. In other countries, if parties push batshit laws they get punished for it, and then head back to the centre. In the states parties can push batshit laws all the time and then they get blocked in the senate.

Ultately I firmly believe that a party that won a majority should be able to govern, and that includes passing their legislation and manifesto. Yes, that might mean you get some stupid crap at first but very quickly parties will gravitate to the centre because that's where the majority of people are. There's got to be a reason why American politicians is so absurdly polarised compared to an other western democracy.

Direct primaries
First-past-the-post voting
Geography-based House seats

To name a few

 

[Aylinato]

The Senate, for all its problems, is not the cause of polarization in the US.

I agree, the senate actually is a fairly decent representation of the states they are elected from. The house is gerrymandered and looks like the extreme fringes of whatever party was in control of the legislatures across the nation(2010-->mostly republican) which has lead to a more radical group in charge after the 2012 election causing not of their moderates to lose primaries to radicals.



Edit. The US Senate was created to protect the rights of the minority(meaning smaller states and not majority parties). This leads to better compromises and better legislation. Majority take all systems largely mess up big time as it's winner-takes-all. (The house is majority rule, without the senate our country would be fucked up). Obviously I don't like how the senate used to be picked by the state legislatures, and love the idea of direct democracy.

 

[Manmademan]

The Senate, for all its problems, is not the cause of polarization in the US.

agree. this is a recent event. I'd say the start of it was probably around the time of clinton's impeachment, maybe a little earlier. Before that, you actually had sane republicans, and moderates could get themselves past the nominating process (Bob Dole).

AFTER that? I'd say a concerted effort by right wing media intentionally polarized the electorate because it was profitable to do so, with the rank and file in the house and senate following along with the talking points. Elimination of rules in the 90s against media monopolies made this possible- now there are about 5 or 6 corporations controlling the vast majority of your media outlets.

After obama's election and the CLEAR indication that the republican party was near extinction, republicans and their media outlets went even further right out of desperation polarizing things further. it worked in the short term, but long term? the party is completely dysfunctional and in danger of splintering between moderates and the tea party.

 

[TacticalFox88]

agree. this is a recent event. I'd say the start of it was probably around the time of clinton's impeachment, maybe a little earlier. Before that, you actually had sane republicans, and moderates could get themselves past the nominating process (Bob Dole).

AFTER that? I'd say a concerted effort by right wing media intentionally polarized the electorate because it was profitable to do so, with the rank and file in the house and senate following along with the talking points. Elimination of rules in the 90s against media monopolies made this possible- now there are about 5 or 6 corporations controlling the vast majority of your media outlets.

After obama's election and the CLEAR indication that the republican party was near extinction, republicans and their media outlets went even further right out of desperation polarizing things further. it worked in the short term, but long term? the party is completely dysfunctional and in danger of splintering between moderates and the tea party.

I'm of the opinion that had Hillary gotten elected that GOP could've held out despite their heavy demographic disadvantage for about 15-20 more years. Obama sped that up by a decade at bare minimum.

 

[j_k_redtail]

I was watching a Fox News health show about whether vaccinations are evil or not, but now there's a breaking news press conference of a bunch of House Republicans urging the Senate to work today. Pretty much saying that Reid/Obama is to blame if government shuts down lol.

No one will buy this. If changes to Obamacare need to be discussed, then fine: put them in a bill, and let's see if such a bill can make it through the House and the Senate. Want to delay Obamacare for a year? Fine: Put it in a bill, try to get it through Congress. Maybe it'll reach the President's desk and become law.... lol. There is no legislative reason to attach either of these terms to a budget bill (not even a real budget - a continuing resolution, at that), unless you want to use the threat of a shutdown as leverage. Same goes for the debt ceiling hike. Everyone knows this - after all, Ted Cruz had been clamoring for a shutdown for weeks now. How is that the Democrats' fault?

 

[Manmademan]

I'm of the opinion that had Hillary gotten elected that GOP could've held out despite their heavy demographic disadvantage for about 15-20 more years. Obama sped that up by a decade at bare minimum.

I don't think there would have been any difference who was elected in '08. In fact, hillary getting elected probably would have made the margin of loss for republicans WORSE, since Palin (and the associated media circus) never would have happened. McCain would have nominated a whitebread governor from the midwest no one would remember by now and gotten smoked.

Then again, it's unlikely hillary would have carried NC, so who knows.

Either way, it would have resulted in a democratic controlled senate, house, and presidency, with the republicans on the ropes and the same result.

 

[pigeon]

I don't think that is how it works. There are plenty of large western democracies which don't have a second chamber like the USA senate and function just fine - the UK is one in point.

In fact, i would argue that the senate has polarised your politics hugely. In other countries, parties get into power, pass their laws and then live and die by the success of those laws. In the states, the senate allows for opposition parties to block almost anything and the majority to claim it would have worked apart from the opposition. In other countries, if parties push batshit laws they get punished for it, and then head back to the centre. In the states parties can push batshit laws all the time and then they get blocked in the senate.

Ultately I firmly believe that a party that won a majority should be able to govern, and that includes passing their legislation and manifesto. Yes, that might mean you get some stupid crap at first but very quickly parties will gravitate to the centre because that's where the majority of people are. There's got to be a reason why American politicians is so absurdly polarised compared to an other western democracy.

It's black people.

Seriously! Slavery is America's original sin. It's not a coincidence that the red states are the Confederate ones. It's not accidental that people didn't start trying to cut funding for public schools until desegregation. It isn't happenstance that the libertarian heroes on the right keep being associated with white supremacists, or that the GOP has adopted the tactics of John Calhoun. And it certainly shouldn't be surprising that this all came to a head when a black President took office. The racism that was built into the founding of America has been slowly burning out since the Civil War. This is just another skirmish.

 

[The Librarian]

I agree, the senate actually is a fairly decent representation of the states they are elected from.

I disagree. The Senate is one of the most undemocratic institutions on the planet, and gives too much precedence to geography. If you're a Republican in California, your interests aren't really being represented. If you're a resident of Fresno County you have less representation in the Senate than Wyoming, despite having a larger population.

The US Senate was created to protect the rights of the minority(meaning smaller states and not majority parties). This leads to better compromises and better legislation. Majority take all systems largely mess up big time as it's winner-takes-all. (The house is majority rule, without the senate our country would be fucked up). Obviously I don't like how the senate used to be picked by the state legislatures, and love the idea of direct democracy.

I disagree with this as well. I think the idea of a Senate with states having equal representation is important to give voice to smaller states for annual appropriates...but it hasn't worked out that well. A lot of people say the Senate was designed to protect minority rights, but time and again it has been used to limit them. And, historically, the Senate has been the one that's been the problem, not the House – especially when Democrats control all three branches. From the Civil Rights Act, to healthcare reform and Don't Ask, Don't Tell, the problem has repeatedly been the Senate.

 

[PhoenixDark]

I was watching a Fox News health show about whether vaccinations are evil or not, but now there's a breaking news press conference of a bunch of House Republicans urging the Senate to work today. Pretty much saying that Reid/Obama is to blame if government shuts down lol.

The highlight so far is Representative Tim Griffin, who for some reason is holding a football.

This is all over twitter. The talking point is that the senate is "taking the day off work," another attempt to compare government work to...well, real work. It's so stupid and half asses, which makes sense given this entire shutdown plan is stupid and half assed.

Tomorrow Reid will quickly strip everything from the CR and re-pass it; I'd imagine leadership spent most of today making sure Manchin and company are on board. Preferably, Reid will hold the vote late, to ensure the House doesn't have time to send the CR+Vitter amendment back to them.

 

[Diablos]

Why do I lurk poligaf.

I like feeling informed.

But the stress. The added stress from being informed will drive me mad.

That's how I feel. It only gets worse as you get older.

jesus christ

Businesses and individuals don't want a government shut down. Republicans are getting blamed in every poll, that's not going to magically change unless democrats really fuck up. And the contraception shit only makes democrats' job easier.

The stakes would be fairly high should the government shut down. I don't think they care about polls. That much is clear. They think they have the truth on their side.

It's PoliGAF dude, diablosing is a hallowed tradition. As is complaining about it.

<3

Obviously you've pretty much maxed out on the crazy pills by now, but for the record, Barro had a pretty hilarious article about how terrible an idea a Vitter Amendment CR would be:

http://www.businessinsider.com/new-...ven-dumber-than-the-last-2013-9#ixzz2gIqyK37i

No crazy pills, just as previously stated it's the stress of reading up on American politics these days. That's why you don't see me as much anymore except for when serious stuff is going down. Yeah, the Vitter amendment is a bad idea, if they try to pass only that + CR then the joke is most certainly on them.

http://www.businessinsider.com/bill-clinton-obama-call-gop-bluff-2013-9
Even Bill Clinton, despite projecting confidence, knows what is on the line here.

 

[Videoneon]

So this shutdown fiasco is lame to watch, partially because I don't like the points that Cruz will likely score. I'm becoming more convinced that though he's not going to get what he wants, he will get political credibility with voters. At least there's no chance he'll be president, I suppose...

So: presenting some GOP FUD-offensive bits:

Cruz said unions, including the International Brotherhood of Teamsters, want to "repeal" the health care law "because it is a nightmare." Three unions used the word "nightmare" in a letter to Democratic leaders in Congress. But they asked that the law be fixed, not repealed. James P. Hoffa, the Teamsters president, has asked Cruz to stop "misusing" the unions' words.

Presidents of three labor unions criticized parts of the health care law in a letter to Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid and House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi. The union leaders said the law had "unintended consequences" that will lead to several "nightmare scenarios." They complained the law will "destroy the foundation of the 40 hour work week" by creating incentives for employers to schedule workers for less than 30 hours a week. And they said the law taxes union workers with nonprofit health insurance plans to help pay for government subsidies those workers will not be eligible to receive.

But the letter didn't say lawmakers should "repeal" the law.

Cruz, Sept. 24:There is a reason why labor unions want out. There is a reason the Teamsters, who describe that they have been knocking on doors as loyal foot soldiers for the Democratic Party, are saying: This is a nightmare. Repeal Obamacare. Repeal it because it is a nightmare.

Hoffa, Sept. 25: Though we may have concerns with specific provisions of the ACA, we share the president's goal of ensuring that every American has affordable access to top-quality health care. It is on this main point that we disagree wholeheartedly with the efforts of extreme right-wing Republicans to gut the ACA. Any suggestion otherwise is simply political posturing.

I call on Sen. Ted Cruz, Sen. David Vitter and others to cease and desist from misusing our constructive comments in their destructive campaign to hobble the president and the nation.

Cruz didn't listen. He was back to using the words of Hoffa and company in a speech on the Senate floor on Sept. 27.

Bonus Rand Paul FUD

Paul, Sept. 25: That is what I think the senator from Texas has started, hopefully a rebellion against coercion, rebellion against mandates, a rebellion against everything that says that big government wants to shove something down your throat, they say take it or we will put people in jail. People say we aren't going to put anybody in jail. The heck they won't. You will get fined first. If you don't pay your fines, you will go to jail.

As we have written before, the law specifically precludes jail as a penalty for those who do not pay the fine for failing to buy insurance. It is spelled out in a section called "Waiver of Criminal Penalties." (See page 131)

Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act: In the case of any failure by a taxpayer to timely pay any penalty imposed by this section, such taxpayer shall not be subject to any criminal prosecution or penalty with respect to such failure.

The law also spells out that the IRS can't use liens or levies as enforcement tools.

Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act: The Secretary [of Health and Human Services] shall not file notice of lien with respect to any property of a taxpayer by reason of any failure to pay the penalty imposed by this section &#8230; or levy on any such property with respect to such failure.

So what exactly can the IRS do if people refuse to pay the tax penalty for non-compliance? Nasty letters, for starters, but ultimately the IRS says it would deduct the penalty amount from a person's future refunds, if the individual has any.

 

[ivysaur12]

But what does this all mean for Kay Hagan?

 

[theprodigy]

But what does this all mean for Kay Hagan?

obviously dead /PD

 

[Oblivion]

Does Ted Cruz seriously even think about what he's saying before he says it?

David Gregory pointed out that his grandstanding hasn't done him any favors and he has fewer supporters than he did in the summer. So Cruz says it doesn't matter because people can be swayed by "leadership". He then pointed to (shockingly enough) Obama about his threat to launch unilateral strikes on Syria and how the Republicans and Dems rallied around him ("rallied" is a generous word, but he did get SOME Republican support, so whatever). But THEN he starts talking about how the American people decided they didn't want intervention in Syria and then the government listened.


HOW THE FUCK DOES ANY OF THIS PROVE HIS POINT ABOUT LEADERSHIP?!

 

[Suikoguy]

Is Rand Paul now advocating breaking the law? That's amazing.

 

[ivysaur12]

Why would the Senate be working today? It's the Breaking Bad finale. Idiots.

 

[Black Mamba]

Does Ted Cruz seriously even think about what he's saying before he says it?

David Gregory pointed out that his grandstanding hasn't done him any favors and he has fewer supporters than he did in the summer. So Cruz says it doesn't matter because people can be swayed by "leadership". He then pointed to (shockingly enough) Obama about his threat to launch unilateral strikes on Syria and how the Republicans and Dems rallied around him ("rallied" is a generous word, but he did get SOME Republican support, so whatever). But THEN he starts talking about how the American people decided they didn't want intervention in Syria and then the government listened.


HOW THE FUCK DOES ANY OF THIS PROVE HIS POINT ABOUT LEADERSHIP?!

lol

 

[The Librarian]

obviously dead /PD

Ha! How long have you been reading PoliGAF?

Why would the Senate be working today? It's the Breaking Bad finale. Idiots.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/obama-depressed-distant-since-battlestar-galactica,2693/

 

[The Librarian]

Robert Costa...

What happened this wknd: Boehner won brief rally of support on Sat, got a messaging volley passed Sat night, but shutdown coming

Many Rs today seem resigned to a brief shutdown. It'd be very difficult on Mon for Boehner to get a revised CR thru, and Reid won't budge

late this afternoon, tea-party Rs are warning folks behind scenes that if Boehner even tries to move a clean-ish CR, there'll be a revolt...

A smart House R you know explained it to me this way: There's a reason leadership supported Senate rally today...

... if they thought they could avoid a shutdown, they wouldn't be hitting "blame Sen" msg'ing so hard this afternoon

Smart R predicts: On Mon, there will be posturing, talk of options, but shutdown will happen. Pain felt, then House Rs reconvene...

A brief shutdown may help Boehner and tea party Rs: will blame Sen, say they want to the limit, then pivot and push off fight to debt limit

My sense of leadership world's mindset: It's more impt for Boehner to preserve fragile GOP unity than agonize over brief shutdown

https://twitter.com/robertcostaNRO

 

[theprodigy]

Ha! How long have you been reading PoliGAF?

eh, sometime around the presidential debates?

 

[The Librarian]

eh, sometime around the presidential debates?

Huh. Did you sign up for GAF for PoliGAF?

 

[cartoon_soldier]

Robert Costa...



https://twitter.com/robertcostaNRO

Shutdown won't be brief. Tea party still rules over the house, they live in this world where everybody agrees with them. I doubt the hardcore tea party members pushing this are going to face any blowback back home.

 

[zero shift]

It's black people.

Seriously! Slavery is America's original sin. It's not a coincidence that the red states are the Confederate ones. It's not accidental that people didn't start trying to cut funding for public schools until desegregation. It isn't happenstance that the libertarian heroes on the right keep being associated with white supremacists, or that the GOP has adopted the tactics of John Calhoun. And it certainly shouldn't be surprising that this all came to a head when a black President took office. The racism that was built into the founding of America has been slowly burning out since the Civil War. This is just another skirmish.

While black people are a huge part of it. In general I feel that its the death of "White America". America is changing now. NPR actually did a slice of life-like reporting on it. The days of America of being a nation filled with white Europeans who all consist of a heritage of apple pie, baseball, and Elvis has nearly faded away. Hell even the late Boomers and early Generation X's America of mostly white Europeans with blacks and Mexicans as only small visible minorities that "you can ignore" is pretty much starting to choke. America is increasingly becoming a more and more diverse nation with Asians (especially), Arabs, other Hispanics, and Africa moving to a community near you. This also ignores the fact that even the "traditional" minorities Mexicans and African-Americans are further integrating with everyone else. Hell America society in general is integrating at a rapid place. Minorities are no longer as interested as staying in the city so you can no longer be "safe" from them. They are moving to the suburbs with many moving to integrated communities.

This is what the Republican Party is all about. The last "hurrah" of White "Traditional" America. A large segment of Americans are uneased that they are starting to see *gasp* BLACK teenage boys in their community. And....some of them....don't dress WHITE!

And their daughter is dating a....a....LATINO! Why is everything so terrible now? Why can't the White Old America come back? To be fair though not all white people in suburban areas think like this (obviously). But the real hivemind comes from the areas that are not diverseful. They see their nation changing from the outside. The cities are full of blacks and hispanics "dangerous people", more and more minorities are coming in ruining American culture, and now there's a black president who clearly can't "relate" to the average American. Neverfear!

The Republican Party is here! Here to save America and bring back its culture and tradition! Fighting for the white common man!

This is what propelled the party to the top. Unfortunately this is also going to be its downfall. You see the first problem is that with all these minorities moving in and growing, they aren't going to be happy, let alone identify, with a party that demonizes them. As they become more of a percentage of the population, they have more political power as the share of votes for your party decreases and your rival that gives them free money is friendly toward them gets more votes. There is also the fact that children who were born during this integration grow up and are now used to an America that is diverse. They are used to seeing non-white kids in their schools, used to seeing a black president. So they are less hostile to these things and see the Republican Party as old, traditional, and even racist. This will be the Republicans downfall.

 

[Rubenov]

People say labeling the Tea Party "political terrorists" is going too far, but I can't help but think many Repubs would be doing exactly this if they were on the other side.

Considering the average American voter, and the propensity of the public to latch on to soundbites, a few low ranking Democrats and pundits calling them this way in the media would have a significant effect, I believe.

 

[Oblivion]

So this shutdown fiasco is lame to watch, partially because I don't like the points that Cruz will likely score. I'm becoming more convinced that though he's not going to get what he wants, he will get political credibility with voters. At least there's no chance he'll be president, I suppose...

So: presenting some GOP FUD-offensive bits:



Bonus Rand Paul FUD

Thank you. I was just about to ask about this. Cruz mentioned it like ten times on MTP.

 

[Zoramon089]

Oh boy, an Iranian (by heritage) spy was recently arrested in Israel...

 

[JCizzle]

People say labeling the Tea Party "political terrorists" is going too far, but I can't help but think many Repubs would be doing exactly this if they were on the other side.

Considering the average American voter, and the propensity of the public to latch on to soundbites, a few low ranking Democrats and pundits calling them this way in the media would have a significant effect, I believe.

Political terrorists is probably a pretty fair description when you consider the things that were said about someone like Howard Dean for doing nothing even remotely close to what's happening now.

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

So, what's the schedule now?

Can the senate move on this before the shutdown?

 

[GaimeGuy]

Oh boy, an Iranian (by heritage) spy was recently arrested in Israel...

So? Every nation has spies in every other nation. Vevak, Mossad, CIA, MI-6, they all have spies in the countries of the other organizations, and some even have double agents

 

[PhoenixDark]

So, what's the schedule now?

Can the senate move on this before the shutdown?

They'll pass something tomorrow. The House is pissed that Reid refused to vote today, which would have given them more time to fuck around. Reid should pass something around 8PM to jam the House.

 

[Black Mamba]

Boehner's plan right now is to have a short shutdown with the hope that the Tea Party radicals will take note of the pounding the GOP gets and they will cave.

But here's the problem with that strategy. It should never come to that because they should understand that already. But they either don't or they don't care.

The problem with the Tea Party Radicals is they are either not rational actors or they don't care to act rationally.

And if that's the case, there's no guarantee this will end quickly or in a good fashion. You have too many people afraid of caving thanks to years of idiocy and the radicals who just won't cave. So either Boehner breaks away and risks his job to side with the Dems or he's beholden to the irrational fucks.

This is why I said a couple weeks ago I stopped feeling good about this. I know in the end the GOP has to cave because Obama/Dems will not and cannot do so. But I don't know how far the GOP will take this and to what extent they will take it before they are finally brought to their knees. Any other time I'd have believed that the party was "testing the waters" so to speak with the shutdown to gauge reaction and then acquiescence in the face of reality. But reality does not matter to these folks.

Irrational people are unpredictable. They are willing to let themselves die for no good reason. And while normally I'd be okay with this, if this results in a debt limit default (I don't care if Boehner tipped his hand here, Pigeon, he never assumed this at the time) or a very long shutdown, people are going to be hurt in very bad ways.

I am hoping that somehow the calmer elements of the GOP establishment can reign in control sometime this week. It's our only hope.

 

[ClassyPenguin]

Huh. Did you sign up for GAF for PoliGAF?

well, who goes to gaming side anyway?

 

[theprodigy]

well, who goes to gaming side anyway?

hey now, sales threads are hilarious!
......stupid NPD giving out nothing these days

 

[The Librarian]

well, who goes to gaming side anyway?

I...do?

 

[GaimeGuy]

People say labeling the Tea Party "political terrorists" is going too far, but I can't help but think many Repubs would be doing exactly this if they were on the other side.

Considering the average American voter, and the propensity of the public to latch on to soundbites, a few low ranking Democrats and pundits calling them this way in the media would have a significant effect, I believe.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/jun/09/did-republicans-deliberately-crash-us-economy



It's not "going too far." We've seen republicans oppose some of their own pragmatic solutions to economic problems. we've also seen them push for extreme policies which they know full well are bad for the country, only withdrawing their support when they're given the power to pass such policies rather than merely making things difficult for their poltiical opposition http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2011/04/...se-republicans-to-vote-down-their-own-budget/


The GOP has, since Obama became president, been actively trying to make it as difficult as possible for the country to rebound from the recession of 2007/2008. Maybe it's not terrorism, but it is definitely sabotage, and that's actually worse than terrorism.

 

[Suikoguy]

I...do?

Console wars bullshit is entertaining

 

[Black Mamba]

Ted Cruz argued that going from a repeal to a defund is a compromise.

lmao. Sadly, there are people who actually eat this horseshit up.

What I wish Gregory or anyone would ask Cruz is "If Reid tomorrow says the gov't will shutdown unless the House passes the Senate bill to raise taxes on the wealthy," what would your response to that be?

 

[Oblivion]

I'll be glad once this shutdown thing is over with and we go on to the debt ceiling battle. Getting tired of reporters ignoring that, and focusing so much on the shut down.