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PoliGAF 2013 |OT2| Worth 77% of OT1

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I

Invisible_Insane

Member
An auspicious occasion to start posting again, I think.

That Pierce piece pretty much captures everything about how incomprehensibly stupid this is.

16 days for the world to find a new reserve currency. Glad I'm already in Europe.
 
JetBlackPanda

JetBlackPanda

Member
I ask this a lot on here but I have not studied enough to know for sure.. how can I respond to this?

I believe that government healthcare will create unfair marketplace competition, making rates on private insurers skyrocket, forcing them out of business. There are no government programs that insure drivers, and that's why I believe rates stay competitive. With a government that is already 17 trillion in the hole, my trust on their ability to operate anything is diminished, as politicians are beholden to special interest groups, giant corporations, etc. And so I believe that instead of making wise decisions with tax payer money, I believe they will bankrupt the healthcare industry, like they have with many other government programs I.e social security, solyndra, etc. The government believes that taking more of my/our money is what solves problems. And hence, I believe they will steal from us until something else steps in and saves us. Besides China.
Click to expand...
 
T

Tamanon

Banned
JetBlackPanda said:
I ask this a lot on here but I have not studied enough to know for sure.. how can I respond to this?
Click to expand...

Well, I would first ask why they believe that the response to competition is to raise prices. That seems to be a fundamental part of their argument.

Also, I would ask how the government bankrupted Solyndra.
 
P

PhoenixDark

Banned
More than 3 million people have visited the healthcare site today. I want to see some numbers on how many people have actually signed up for insurance, but it's a good start. Now if the site will start working, I'll be able to run some tests.
 
D

Diablos

Member
Piecemeal approach for 6 weeks of funding. Get the fuck out of here.

This is a farce. The media (i.e. CNN) is already posturing to make Democrats look weak. "WHY CAN'T THE DEMS COMPROMISE" at the bottom of the screen with Wolf Blitzer running his stupid mouth.

I can't think of any way we can get out of this without giving something up.
 
W

Wilsongt

Member
"Slimdown", "Democrats fault", Eric Cantor sitting at a table waiting for democrats.

How fucking delusional can you be and they are telling this shit to their base who are eating it up.

Now only do they fuck up the government, but they now are trying to push the blame on someone else.

God what a fucking bunch of morons.
 
D

Diablos

Member
Wilsongt said:
"Slimdown", "Democrats fault", Eric Cantor sitting at a table waiting for democrats.

How fucking delusional can you be and they are telling this shit to their base who are eating it up.

Now only do they fuck up the government, but they now are trying to push the blame on someone else.

God what a fucking bunch of morons.
Click to expand...
Of course they are eating it up. The question is, will independents start to as well? Do you really think they are just doing this to appease their base? No.
 
B

Black Mamba

Member
As part of the implementation of President Obama’s signature Affordable Care Act, private health insurance exchanges are being rolled out on Oct. 1 as a means for citizens to obtain medical coverage. Here are some helpful answers to the most common questions about these exchanges:

What will the health insurance options cover?

Under the provisions of the Affordable Care Act, all plans are required to provide essential health benefits, which include any laboratory tests on knees, full outpatient knee care, and 24-hour knee monitoring.

What will these plans cost?

The price of liberty, freedom, and the American way of life.

Who is eligible to receive insurance via these exchanges?

Definitely not Nana. In fact, you’re better off just saying goodbye to Nana now and getting it over with.

Who provides the insurance?

Walmart.

Will I be able to see any doctor I want?

No, your physician is Dr. Michael Possin. Call his office for an appointment.

Will my spouse be covered?

Carol said yes? Oh my God, congratulations!

What will happen to my medical records?

Patients’ privacy is taken very seriously under the Affordable Care Act. As such, your medical records can only be seen by you, your doctor, and President Obama.

I am a partially deaf 34-year-old man. I am extremely self-conscious and have trouble meeting women and making friends in general. I am very lonely. Should I buy insurance through the exchange?

Yes.

What if I am already covered by health insurance at work?

Well, I hate to say it, but we just got the word from Denise in HR: You’ve been let go. I’m sorry you had to find out this way.

How will my day-to-day life be affected under this plan?

Imagine a world with one big safety net there to catch you. Now get out there and buy that motorcycle!
Click to expand...
http://www.theonion.com/articles/how-obamacares-health-insurance-exchanges-work,34061/?ref=auto

lol
 
P

Particle Physicist

between a quark and a baryon
JetBlackPanda said:
I ask this a lot on here but I have not studied enough to know for sure.. how can I respond to this?
Click to expand...

Apart from Medicaid, Medicare and the VA system, there is no other government healthcare. The public option was killed long ago in negotiations as yet another compromise that the Democrats gave into. The entire ACA is a huge compromise to the Republicans. It's so hilarious to hear them cry that the Democrats did not compromise one bit. It's such a farce. Your friend in the quote is conflating all kinds of stuff. It's clear he/she really doesn't know what he/she is talking about.
 
W

Wilsongt

Member
shutdown_zps533b7ffb.jpg


That photobucket is a goldmine
 
C

Clevinger

Member
Here's a nice article from another thread about how the media's been reporting this as "both sides at fault," "Congress can't agree," "Gridlock!" etc.

American news reports are largely blaming the government shutdown on the inability of both political parties to come to terms. It is supposedly the result of a "bitterly divided" Congress that "failed to reach agreement" (Washington Post) or "a bitter budget standoff" left unresolved by "rapid-fire back and forth legislative maneuvers" (New York Times). This sort of false equivalence is not just a failure of journalism. It is also a failure of democracy.

When the political leadership of this country is incapable of even keeping the government open, a political course-correction is in order. But how can democracy self-correct if the public does not understand where the problem lies? And where will the pressure for change come from if journalists do not hold the responsible parties accountable?

The truth of what happened Monday night, as almost all political reporters know full well, is that "Republicans staged a series of last-ditch efforts to use a once-routine budget procedure to force Democrats to abandon their efforts to extend US health insurance." (Thank you, Guardian.)
Click to expand...
 
D

Diablos

Member
WASHINGTON -- Less than a day after the government shut down, House Republicans are slowly but steadily coming forward to say they're ready to just pass a bill to fund the government with no strings attached.

Here's who they are, and why they say they're done with trying to force through provisions to delay or defund Obamacare in order to keep the government running. We'll update the list if and when more come in. It would take 17 Republicans, along with all Democrats, to cobble together the votes to pass a clean continuing resolution.

----------
Rep. Pat Meehan (R-Pa.): “At this point, I believe it’s time for the House to vote for a clean, short-term funding bill to bring the Senate to the table and negotiate a responsible compromise.” [Press Release, 10/1/13]

Rep. Scott Rigell (R-Va.): “Time for a clean [continuing resolution].” [Official Twitter, 10/1/13]

Rep. Jon Runyan (R-N.J.): “Enough is enough. Put a clean [continuing resolution] on the floor and let’s get on with the business we were sent to do." [Burlington County Times, 10/1/13]

Rep. Mike Fitzpatrick (R-Pa.): A Fitzpatrick aide tells the Philadelphia Inquirer the congressman would support a clean funding bill if it came up for a vote. [Philadelphia Inquirer, 10/1/13]

Rep. Lou Barletta (R-Pa.): Barletta said he would "absolutely" vote for a clean bill in order to avert a shut down of the government. [Bethlehem Morning Call, 10/1/13]

Rep. Peter King (R-N.Y.): King thinks House Republicans would prefer to avoid a shutdown and said he will only vote for a clean continuing resolution to fund the government, according to the National Review Online. [NRO, 9/30/13]

Rep. Devin Nunes (R-Calif.): The California Republican told The Huffington Post he would ultimately support a clean continuing resolution. [Tweet by The Huffington Post's Sabrina Siddiqui, 9/30/13]

Rep. Charlie Dent (R-Pa.): “I'm prepared to vote for a clean [continuing resolution].” [The Huffington Post, 9/29/13]

Rep. Frank Wolf (R-Va.): A Wolf aide told The Hill that he agrees with fellow Virginia Rep. Scott Rigell (R) that it's time for a clean continuing resolution. [The Hill, 10/1/13]

Rep. Michael Grimm (R-N.Y.): A Grimm aide told The Huffington Post that the congressman supports a clean continuing resolution. [10/1/13].

Rep. Erik Paulsen (R-Minn.): A local news anchor in Minnesota tweeted that Paulsen told him he would vote for a clean resolution if given the chance. [Blake McCoy Tweet, 10/1/13]

Rep. Rob Wittman (R-Va.): A constituent of Wittman's sent The Huffington Post an email she got from the congressman indicating he would vote for a clean funding bill but hasn't had "an opportunity to do so at this point." [10/1/13]

This is a developing story and has been updated.
Click to expand...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/01/house-republicans-clean-cr_n_4024755.html
 
G

Gotchaye

Member
Y2Kev said:
I'm not sure people are buying it. Republicans are getting the shellacking in polls.
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I think it matters a lot that there's clear division within the Republican Party about this. They're getting blamed for the same reason that a "bipartisan" bill is more popular. Both Ds and Rs are saying a clean CR ought to happen and only Rs are saying that one ought not to.
 
M

Manmademan

Member
JetBlackPanda said:
I ask this a lot on here but I have not studied enough to know for sure.. how can I respond to this?
Click to expand...

well...

I believe that government healthcare will create unfair marketplace competition
Click to expand...

Fails hard right here. There is no "government healthcare" outside of medicare and medicaid, which have been in place longer than most of us have been alive. Obamacare as most understand it is 100% private.

In addition, the marketplace as it exists pre-obamacare is NOT a "free and fair" marketplace. Customers do not have the ability to shop between healthcare companies, the rates we pay for healthcare are invisible (I have no way of knowing what blue cross is offering to my neighbor, for instance), and the criteria for getting insured is arbitrary. Obamacare fixes this.

making rates on private insurers skyrocket, forcing them out of business.
Click to expand...

Rates were rising at about 10% a year, from 2000-2005. The last two years that Obamacare has rolled into effect in stages, it's only risen 4%. on top of that, insurers are now banned from raising any rates that aren't directly related to an increase in cost of care- they're capped at 15% margins. any extra is refunded to customers.

There are no government programs that insure drivers,
Click to expand...

Car insurance is regulated to a far greater degree than health insurance is. I don't have to get car insurance through my employer or a group to actually be able to afford it. Car insurance companies can't simply refuse to cover an accident because I got into a fender bender in 1996.

and that's why I believe rates stay competitive.
Click to expand...

rates aren't competitive by any stretch of the imagination, nor do they have to be, since most customers do not have the ability to switch companies.

With a government that is already 17 trillion in the hole, my trust on their ability to operate anything is diminished
Click to expand...

The government actually runs many, many programs as efficiently or more efficiently than the private sector. The government developed what would be the internet decades ago with ARPANET. The government put a man on the moon in 1969. The US postal service can get a letter from one side of the country to any address on the other side of the country for 46 cents. How is the private sector doing at these things?

as politicians are beholden to special interest groups, giant corporations, etc.
Click to expand...

"I don't want politicians who might be beholden to special interests and giant corporations making decisions! I would rather have those special interests and giant corporations making those decisions directly! Accountability? Oversight? what are those?"

And so I believe that instead of making wise decisions with tax payer money, I believe they will bankrupt the healthcare industry, like they have with many other government programs I.e social security, solyndra, etc.
Click to expand...

Social security is not bankrupt by any stretch of the imagination, and could easily be funded into the next century if congress chose to do it. Solyndra is a private company, and not government run by any definition. The loan/grant program that funded solyndra before they went out of business (due largely to unfair competition from the chinese and chinese government who funded similar businesses to a FAR greater degree than the US government did) had a rate of return an order of magnitude higher than that typically found in private investment groups like hedge funds. it's wildly profitable.

The government believes that taking more of my/our money is what solves problems. And hence, I believe they will steal from us until something else steps in and saves us. Besides China.
Click to expand...

this guy has no idea what he's talking about, and is simply repeating what he's heard on AM radio. The government is taking a grand total of zero dollars from you with Obamacare, and actually reduces drastically the out of pocket expense most consumers will pay for health care.
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
Diablos said:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/01/house-republicans-clean-cr_n_4024755.html
Click to expand...

Here's who they are, and why they say they're done with trying to force through provisions to delay or defund Obamacare in order to keep the government running. We'll update the list if and when more come in. It would take 17 Republicans, along with all Democrats, to cobble together the votes to pass a clean continuing resolution.
Click to expand...

Unless those 17 all promise to vote out Boehner as speaker unless he does this, I don't see how this will help, other than further ammo in the blame game.
 
P

PhoenixDark

Banned
@daveweigel 1m

This is also the second brilliant Ted Cruz strategy that has gone belly-up b/c he forgot Democrats exist.
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Now they're voting on funding for national parks, which will also require 2/3s of House. After these votes fail I just don't see what Boehner has left.
 
B

Black Mamba

Member
Washington correspondent for The New Yorker Ryan Lizza said Boehner has to bring Republicans some concession – the medical device tax, or a shorter delay of the individual mandate, for example – if he wants to preserve his job.

In other words, Boehner cannot put forward a bill that funds the government, without some sort of Obamacare concession attached.

“The consensus seems to be that if he puts a clean continuing resolution on the floor, and gets no concessions whatsoever after shutting down the government, that he will lose his job as Speaker,” said Lizza. “That’s the bind he’s in right now.”
Click to expand...

Via cnn. Wow.
 
J

Jooney

Member
Invisible_Insane said:
An auspicious occasion to start posting again, I think.

That Pierce piece pretty much captures everything about how incomprehensibly stupid this is.

16 days for the world to find a new reserve currency. Glad I'm already in Europe.
Click to expand...

Welcome back!

---

Listening to On Point this morning and it is disheartening to see the number of people lamenting that both sides can't come to an agreement. One party is using a routine budget process to extract concessions from the President. This is unprecedented. And people are complaining that the Democrats aren't compromising? Unbelievable. If Obama / Reid were to fold on this it would set the worst kind of precedent going forward. People need to understand this. It needs to be hammered home.

Thank god the Democrats have shown spine and resolve on this issue so far and that the polling shows the majority are with the President.
 
B

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
Black Mamba said:
Via cnn. Wow.
Click to expand...

Yikes, so basically this is going to be going on for a while. He absolutely won't put up a clean CR, especially under those circumstances, unless he has to and even then he may not.

zero shift said:
How did so much gerrymandering happen in 2010? Isn't that stuff done before the new congress is appointed?
Click to expand...

State governments do they drawing up of districts in most states, the GOP won most state governments in a landslide.
 
T

The Librarian

Banned
Black Mamba said:
Via cnn. Wow.
Click to expand...

Robert Costa is basically saying the same thing:
Based on my latest conversations with insiders, their plan isn’t to eventually whip Republicans toward a clean CR and back down after a few days of messaging the shutdown, as some have believed; it’s to keep fighting, and, in the process, preserve the House GOP’s fragile unity — and maybe, if they’re lucky, win a concession from Senate majority leader Harry Reid.

But that unity, more than anything, is critical for Boehner, especially as the debt limit nears. Per his allies, his fear is, if he brings up a clean CR, he’d be seen as conceding to Reid, who’s seen as the villain of villains within the House GOP. Thirty to forty conservatives would likely revolt against such a maneuver, and so would their backers in the conservative movement. In the press, he’d likely be cheered for a profile in courage; within the House, the decision would be seen by his critics on the right as a betrayal of the highest order. There is nothing they detest more than the idea of caving, and Boehner knows that.​
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
zero shift said:
How did so much gerrymandering happen in 2010? Isn't that stuff done before the new congress is appointed?
Click to expand...

Obamacare fear, not gerrymandering, caused 2010, which resulted in gerrymandering that affected 2012
 
T

Tamanon

Banned
Dax01 said:
Robert Costa is basically saying the same thing:
Based on my latest conversations with insiders, their plan isn’t to eventually whip Republicans toward a clean CR and back down after a few days of messaging the shutdown, as some have believed; it’s to keep fighting, and, in the process, preserve the House GOP’s fragile unity — and maybe, if they’re lucky, win a concession from Senate majority leader Harry Reid.

But that unity, more than anything, is critical for Boehner, especially as the debt limit nears. Per his allies, his fear is, if he brings up a clean CR, he’d be seen as conceding to Reid, who’s seen as the villain of villains within the House GOP. Thirty to forty conservatives would likely revolt against such a maneuver, and so would their backers in the conservative movement. In the press, he’d likely be cheered for a profile in courage; within the House, the decision would be seen by his critics on the right as a betrayal of the highest order. There is nothing they detest more than the idea of caving, and Boehner knows that.​
Click to expand...

How in the world did the GOP back themselves into a position where doing what they always did in the past is now a concession?
 
T

The Librarian

Banned
More:
Pushing back against Reid and force him to cut a deal is another leadership objective. Behind the scenes, they’re irritated by his daily killing of anything the House passes and are eager to make sure he shares some of the political pain from the shutdown. Many House Republicans believe Senate Democrats are only hanging with Reid on every vote because he has assured them the House GOP will break, and they think if they can incrementally put pressure on Reid’s conference, his grip could be weakened.​
Oh, Boehner. :(
 
P

PhoenixDark

Banned
@greggiroux 1m

House 252-176 failed to pass natl parks/museums mini-CR (2/3 majority needed) R 230-1, D 22-175
Click to expand...

0 for 3 tonight. This is just 2014 posturing now. Cruz is a complete idiot: it's like he doesn't know there are democrats in the House.
 
A

Anticitizen One

Banned
I wouldn't worry this whole thing will be resolved and the debt ceiling will be raised within 2 weeks. Why? because not raising the debt ceiling will actually impact rich people and that will not be tolerated.
 
R

Rubenov

Member
The more this shutdown goes on, the more I believe the debt ceiling fight won't be as tough. They're spending their political capital now at a rapid pace.

Get it out of the way, repubs. This is stupid and costly, but pales in comparison with what would happen if we were to default.
 
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