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PoliGAF 2013 |OT2| Worth 77% of OT1

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W

Wilsongt

Member
Fox News new attack angle is "VETERNSVETERNSVETERNS'

They had an "interview" a few minutes with a Republican something and a former aid to Hillary and the Republican was going in on how Obama is horrible for closing memorials, Obamacare is evil, etc. Yet, when Hillary guy was explaining that people are actually favorable towards Obamacare, both the host and the Republican did everything they could to talk over him and throw out ever single negative buzzword they could.

Wow.

They are definitely good at making democrats look bad because they won't agree to funding smaller portions of the government.
 
empty vessel

empty vessel

Member
APKmetsfan said:
Maybe but the point is that politics and parties organize around voters, not the other way.

If the population shifts left the parties will have to change themselves to stay competitive. Look to history. The dems shifted rightward in the 1990s because thats where voters were. Its only now we're seeing a real beginning of progressive politics being a movement.
Click to expand...

I think this is a little oversimplified. The Dems shifted rightward in the 90s not because that's where votes were, but because that's where money was. And there was nothing on the other side making them stay there (or move even further left).

Movements move parties. But so does money in the absence of movements.
 
W

Wall

Member
TacticalFox88 said:
What do you mean, in the long run? Demographics have pretty much assured Democratic dominance for another half-century at least, bar some 9/11 type event which swings things back to the GOP.

Once ACA is FULLY implemented, a lot more people will be totally on board with expanding it. If Single Payer gets on the cards before 2024, then it's possible that Hillary, not Obama will be credited in the long run for *truly* fixing our broken HC system.
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I'd say demographics give the Democrats a structural advantage for the Presidency and mayyyybde the Senate. Gerrymandering still gives the GOP the advantage in the House until at least 2020, and possibly beyond if Republicans are successful at the state level. Even given the demographics, there is still a significantly greater than nonzero chance that the Republicans could take control of the senate in a year like 2014, or a strong Republican candidate like Christie could beat a weak democrat. Even Obama's victories were pretty narrow if you compare them to elections prior to the 90's.

As for the younger cohort of millennials, it is tough to get a read on their views. The current political debate is pretty much fought on terrain defined by the boomers. It is fairly meaningless for younger people. Rand Paul does well with young, white, millennials because he is one of the few politicians to address some of their concerns.

All the more reason to have an actual debate in the Democratic primary.
 
Z

zero shift

Banned
I really really REALLY hope that the minorities in this country learn from the mistakes white people made after they become the majority:

- Take care of your society and your society will take care of you
- Its okay to give certain demographics more help if they struggle to get on the right foot more than others
- Invest in the world of tomorrow not immediate short term gains
- Scapegoating is never correct nor productive
- Free market isn't God
 
P

PhoenixDark

Banned
APKmetsfan said:
Demographics won't lead to party dominance hut possibly a shift in discourses and political playing field, politicians follow voters. If the demographics work like predicted (i dont think millenials are as left leaning as people seem to think, i think the bigger change is the growth of minorities is what will do it and that doesnt kick in till mod century)BOTH parties will shift leftwards.

And, I was looking at polling, how can anyone blame obama? He hasn't even got a bill. The senate seems to be getting through this crisis with nobody noticing them.
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Agreed. Sooner or later the right will abandon the religious right, which will begin the process. I think the GOP needs another 1964 to complete the process, ie a right wing candidate getting crushed thus allowing the party to rebuild. Rand Paul (or Cruz) getting annihilated by Hillary Clinton could be that catalyst.

The modern GOP will become a regional, southern party soon enough. That doesn't mean the republican party is dead, just its current iteration.
 
W

Wilsongt

Member
Correct me if I am wrong here:

So, with the ACA, it is expected that young people pay into the system so that those in need of healthcare and health insurance can afford and obtain it, right?

Doesn't Social Security work in that young and working people pay into it so that retired and old people can receive it, right?

Doesn't medicare, congressional pay, and veterns benefits work in that young and working people pay taxes and those who obtained those services receive them, right?

So, if people are against the ACA, why don't we just get rid of SS, Medicare, congresional pay, and veterns pay, also? That way, it's fair across the board. No one receives benefits and no one ways into it.
 
R

Riki

Member
Wilsongt said:
Correct me if I am wrong here:

So, with the ACA, it is expected that young people pay into the system so that those in need of healthcare and health insurance can afford and obtain it, right?

Doesn't Social Security work in that young and working people pay into it so that retired and old people can receive it, right?

Doesn't medicare, congressional pay, and veterns benefits work in that young and working people pay taxes and those who obtained those services receive them, right?

So, if people are against the ACA, why don't we just get rid of SS, Medicare, congresional pay, and veterns pay, also? That way, it's fair across the board. No one receives benefits and no one ways into it.
Click to expand...

Honestly, we should do away with SS. It was a temporary solution for a long term problem. But that's neither here nor there.
The main issue is two fold:

1. Democrats implemented ACA. That alone is enough to make people hate it.
2. It's something new. Change is bad. SS and the others have been around for decades.
 
Z

zero shift

Banned
Quick "Obamacare" question. What do people mean when they say "opt out" of Obamacare? It doesn't include some special government insurance plan does it? So its just conservatives trying to spread misinformation right? I just want to make sure there isn't something obvious I'm missing here. I've looked online and found nothing of such.
 
N

NYCmetsfan

Banned
zero shift said:
Quick "Obamacare" question. What do people mean when they say "opt out" of Obamacare? It doesn't include some special government insurance plan does it? So its just conservatives trying to spread misinformation right? I just want to make sure there isn't something obvious I'm missing here. I've looked online and found nothing of such.
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Don't buy insurance, pay the fine.
 
J

Jonm1010

Banned
bonercop said:
the majority of the paul base is actually old people, btw. people seem to think they're a big hit with the young because they're the only conservatives that have any youth presence amongst their ranks. anyway:



mid-century there will be more minorities than whites, period. But the time when minorities cannot be ignored/marginalized anymore is right around the corner.

also, I disagree with you on millenials. there is that one poll that showed that "socialism" gets a more positive reaction from millenials than "capitalism"

That's wildly different from their elders.
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Yeah this makes sense too when you think about it.

Basically you have an entire generation that is being fed the American dream, pro capitalism line from the older generations while many are coming out of college saddled with debt, unable to find good jobs, getting paid in most cases less then their parents and then being told from an entire political party that we should do little to rectify or help the situation.
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
Jonm1010 said:
Yeah this makes sense too when you think about it.

Basically you have an entire generation that is being fed the American dream, pro capitalism line from the older generations while many are coming out of college saddled with debt, unable to find good jobs, getting paid in most cases less then their parents and then being told from an entire political party that we should do little to rectify or help the situation.
Click to expand...

Of course. Baby boomers have a lot harder time seeing the negotiation gap between the employer and the worker and the harm it does, because they had those protections in place when they were new to the workforce and had no negotiation power themselves. Millennials are feeling the blunt of it first hand, and the banks getting a bailout instead of jail time kind of helps direct exactly who to blame.
 
S

smokeandmirrors

Banned
Wilsongt said:
The phrase "blame Canada" has never been more apropos.

At this rate you could almost say Ted Cruz is the worst thing to come out of Canada.
Click to expand...

I wanted to say

Canada: Finishing what they started in 1814

but that would be historically inaccurate since it was the British and not British Canada that burnt Washington DC. And now I'm really upset.
 
E

explodet

Member
Wilsongt said:
At this rate you could almost say Ted Cruz is the worst thing to come out of Canada.
Click to expand...
qftlc.jpg
Click to expand...
.
 
A

Aaron Strife

Banned
PhoenixPause said:
Agreed. Sooner or later the right will abandon the religious right, which will begin the process. I think the GOP needs another 1964 to complete the process, ie a right wing candidate getting crushed thus allowing the party to rebuild. Rand Paul (or Cruz) getting annihilated by Hillary Clinton could be that catalyst.

The modern GOP will become a regional, southern party soon enough. That doesn't mean the republican party is dead, just its current iteration.
Click to expand...
Interesting how the Republicans have had to keep rebuilding themselves whereas the Democratic coalition has been more or less the same for 70ish years.
 
T

teiresias

Member
Is this a new development? I don't know anymore.

GOP floats six-week funding and debt ceiling extension

How long does the Senate-approved CR last for? Was it a year-long CR? The wording is a bit confusing, but it seems like this is a clean debt ceiling raise, but only a six-week funding of the government. Not sure if they should go for that, but I'm not clear on how this differs from what the Senate approved already.

Regardless, it obviously gives the impression that some in the GOP are really looking for a way out of this mess.
 
R

RustyNails

Member
Diablos said:
Yeah, it is going to be hard to top 2012 in terms of shitty candidates/campaigning.

Rand Paul, Chris Christie and Marco Rubio alone will make for a much more compelling debate stage than what was essentially "every man for himself and oh look it's Michelle Bachmann lol".
Click to expand...
No. 2016 Republican primary season is not going to top 2012 for one reason and one reason only. And it is (drumroll)

HermanCainGrin.gif
 
D

Diablos

Member
RustyNails said:
No. 2016 Republican primary season is not going to top 2012 for one reason and one reason only. And it is (drumroll)

HermanCainGrin.gif
Click to expand...
2012 was like GOP flavor of the week. It was a facade until Mitt Romney finally won the nomination by not looking like the craziest person on the stage in any given week.
 
T

TacticalFox88

Banned
RustyNails said:
No. 2016 Republican primary season is not going to top 2012 for one reason and one reason only. And it is (drumroll)

HermanCainGrin.gif
Click to expand...

This is a fools bet.

Everytime and I do mean EVERY time we say that the GOP can't top its crazy they Always ALWAYS do so, like clockwork.

There is no bottom of the barrel. They create new ones each time they open their mouths
 
S

siddhu33

Member
Megadragon15 said:
Why does Canada seem to send their psychopaths to the United States? Do they hate America that much?
Click to expand...

Why do you think Canada does so well? Whenever they have crazies, they send them south. It's a similar principle to what Britain did.

Oh look, crazy puritans who like to have slaves and yet love persecuting people! I know, we'll send them across the Atlantic!
 
B

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
TacticalFox88 said:
This is a fools bet.

Everytime and I do mean EVERY time we say that the GOP can't top its crazy they Always ALWAYS do so, like clockwork.

There is no bottom of the barrel. They create new ones each time they open their mouths
Click to expand...

Who could out do Herman Cain though?
 
C

Chichikov

Member
Karakand said:
america's paper of record, ladies and germs
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Maureen Dowd is terrible.

You should wash it down with some Gail Collins -
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/05/opinion/collins-frankenstein-goes-to-congress.html?ref=gailcollins
[snip]

Let’s review. Not so very long ago, worrying about entitlements was central to Republican identity. Then, they began to notice that the folks at their rallies looked like the audience for “Matlock” reruns. The base was aging, and didn’t want to change Social Security or Medicare. The base didn’t even want to be reminded that Social Security and Medicare were federal programs.

[snip]

All over the nation, Tea Party politicians have been telling their most fervid constituents that Obamacare will bring the federal government into the nation’s health system, thus wrecking the wonderful coverage they now enjoy with Medicare. Which comes into their homes through the chimney, where it is dropped by free-enterprise storks.

[snip]

“Obamacare is the most dangerous piece of legislation ever passed in Congress. It is the most existential threat to our economy ... since the Great Depression,” said Representative John Fleming of Louisiana. Think about that for a minute. “Most dangerous piece of legislation ever” really does suggest that it’s worse than, say, the Fugitive Slave Act. On the other hand, how many members of the House of Representatives do you hear throw around the word “existential?” So there’s that.
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http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/03/opinion/collins-congress-breaks-bad.html?ref=gailcollins
“Even Bill Clinton, after I voted to impeach him, would work with you to get things done,” said Representative John Mica of Florida. That seemed like a high bar. But then there’s nobody Republicans love more than the former president, who has a winning way of not being Barack Obama. If only Clinton would come back! Then none of this would have happened, except the shutting down the government part.

[snip]

Public-spirited citizens are now forced to become acquainted with a whole new collection of characters who seem to be running the show, like Representative Raúl Labrador of Idaho. Actually, he is the easiest one to remember, since he once considered running for governor against the current incumbent, Butch Otter. I think I speak for us all when I say that Labrador versus Otter would have made 2014 worth waiting for.

[snip]
Click to expand...
 
D

Drakeon

Member
B-Dubs said:
There was one more crazy thing that happened in that primary but I can't remember what it was...
Click to expand...

How about Mitt Romney's "I'll bet you $10,000.00" to Rick Perry in another one of the debates. He did not seem like he was joking when he said that.
 
B

bonercop

Member
Gail Collins said:
Let’s review. Not so very long ago, worrying about entitlements was central to Republican identity. Then, they began to notice that the folks at their rallies looked like the audience for “Matlock” reruns. The base was aging, and didn’t want to change Social Security or Medicare. The base didn’t even want to be reminded that Social Security and Medicare were federal programs.
Click to expand...

Robin-Lopez-Suns-Bench-Shock-Reaction.gif

i can't handle the ether
 
Z

zero shift

Banned
So I just brought Bioshock Infinite during Steam's sale. I'm an hour and a half into it. I assume that Colombia is suppose to be a sobering parody of the tea partiers utopia as Rapture was to libertarians?
 
T

The Librarian

Banned
zero shift said:
So I just brought Bioshock Infinite during Steam's sale. I'm an hour and a half into it. I assume that Colombia is suppose to be a sobering parody of the tea partiers utopia as Rapture was to libertarians?
Click to expand...

Everything that was possible in that universe you owe to women's intuition. You're welcome.
 
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