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[Sibylus]

Senate bill would approve NSA program but try to curb it (Ellen Nakashima, WashPo)

The Senate Intelligence Committee voted Thursday to advance legislation that would endorse a National Security Agency program to collect the phone records of nearly every American while strengthening privacy protections for the Americans whose data is gathered.

The bill stands in stark contrast to legislation introduced Tuesday by a different group of bipartisan lawmakers that would end the call-records program. The competing approaches ensure a robust congressional debate over the proper scope of NSA surveillance and over reforms to enhance transparency and accountability.

Sen. Mark Udall (D-Colo.), who voted against the bill, failed in an effort to supplant it with competing legislation that would halt the call-records program. The USA Freedom Act, which he is co-sponsoring with Sen. Patrick J. Leahy (D-Vt.), also would impose shorter sunset periods on certain surveillance authorities. A companion bill was introduced in the House by Rep. F. James Sensenbrenner Jr. (R-Wis.).

This is the Feinstein bill if I'm not mistaken. Net loss if you believe that there shouldn't be legal backing of mass collection on American citizens to begin with. I like the name, though. Seems fun to yell (FISAIA).


Snowden Appeals to U.S. for Clemency (Alison Smale, NYT)

The appeal came in a letter from Mr. Snowden carried to Berlin by Hans-Christian Ströbele, a veteran member of the Green Party in the German Parliament, who said that he and two journalists for German media met with Mr. Snowden and a person described as his assistant — probably his British aide, Sarah Harrison — at an undisclosed location in or near Moscow on Thursday for almost three hours.

In his letter, Mr. Snowden, 30, also appealed for clemency. He said his disclosures about American intelligence activity at home and abroad, which he called “systematic violations of law by my government that created a moral duty to act,” had had positive effects.

Yet “my government continues to treat dissent as defection, and seeks to criminalize political speech with felony charges that provide no defense,” Mr. Snowden wrote. “However, speaking the truth is not a crime. I am confident that with the support of the international community, the government of the United Sates will abandon this harmful behavior.”

Hero, or vainglorious profiteer turned new arch-chieftain to the Talibun? #yooduhside

Incidentally, Huffpost alleges: Most Canadians See Edward Snowden As A Hero, Poll Suggests

The Angus Reid Global Survey released Wednesday exclusively to The Huffington Post says 52 per cent of Canadians who voted Conservative in the last election said they believe Snowden is a hero for revealing classified U.S. documents about its spying activities.

But that number rose to 67 per cent for Liberals and 78 per cent for New Democrat voters.

Sixty per cent of Britons commended whistleblower Edward Snowden, but 54 per cent of British Conservative voters considered Snowden a traitor rather than a hero. Among supporters of Prime Minister David Cameron’s Conservatives, only 37 per cent said e-surveillance was unacceptable compared to a majority of Liberal Democrats and Labour supporters.

U.S. public opinion was divided as to whether Snowden is a hero (51 per cent) or traitor (49 per cent). But Republicans were more skeptical of e-surveillance than Democrats. Nine out of ten Americans surveyed who voted for the GOP in 2012 said they don’t trust the government with their information.

 

[ISOM]

I think most americans see what snowden did regarding spying on US citizens the right thing. But I don't agree with his stance that he should release all the spying we do on other nations. I think most others think the same. I bet you the canadian public opinion would be a lot less lopsided if he was a canadian citizen releasing canadian secrets.

 

[PhoenixDark]

I think most americans see what snowden did regarding spying on US citizens the right thing. But I don't agree with his stance that he should release all the spying we do on other nations. I think most others think the same. I bet you the canadian public opinion would be a lot less lopsided if he was a canadian citizen releasing canadian secrets.

Sorry but I lol'd

 

[RedSwirl]

Virginia voter here. You people know of an impartial place I can go for information on the guys for Tuesday. Foreign sources perhaps?

 

[theprodigy]

Was this posted?

only by 29 percent

 

[Sibylus]

Sorry but I lol'd

The Maple Vault is a prize beyond comprehension.

But you do have a point. Defense, trade, espionage are so interlinked... there's not many avenues left for keeping secrets that America (on some level) isn't also privy to. Probably haven't cared as a nation about that since before WWII.

 

[RustyNails]

Zadok Zadok
• 41 minutes ago

Obama probably hired this goon to push his gun control.
....Or he had his little troll Valerie do the dirty work.
I think Obama is running out of ideas. He needs a better reality TV director just like he needs a better speech writer.
The fainting pregnant woman was a perfect example of him pulling at straws.
He is pathetic and an embarassment to our country.

7 1•Reply•Share ›

but

 

[Jimothy]

No, we don't see it as the right thing:



By selectively attacking the intelligence program of one democratic nation--and not the far more Orwellian governments of, say, Russia and China-- Snowden has done nothing but aid and abet tyranny. To be honest, I'm surprised his approval rating is even that high.

IGSaint is right: There is a huge role of nationalism in these polls. If someone had leaked, say, Russia's state secrets and then fled to the United States, every corner of the Internet would be lit up with howls about poor little Russia was so unfairly wounded and oppressed by the big bad Americans.

Treason is a capital offense. Snowden and his collaborators should be executed.

Fascist much? I guess Daniel Ellsberg should have been shot too.

 

[thepotatoman]

If someone had leaked, say, Russia's state secrets and then fled to the United States, every corner of the Internet would be lit up with howls about poor little Russia was so unfairly wounded and oppressed by the big bad Americans.

That's completely untrue. I have no idea where you got that idea. Just because we sometimes agree with Putin's criticism of America doesn't mean we'll defend anything he'll ever do. Hell, if a Russian leak happened, the only change would probably be that the people calling for Snowden's head would join the Snowden supporters in parading the Russian leaker around as a hero.

 

[Karakand]

IGSaint is right: There is a huge role of nationalism in these polls. If someone had leaked, say, Russia's state secrets and then fled to the United States, every corner of the Internet would be lit up with howls about poor little Russia was so unfairly wounded and oppressed by the big bad Americans.

I can't think of many states that enjoy less popularity on the (English speaking) internet than the Russian Federation.

The Manly Putin meme doesn't even enjoy the kind of success that really awful things like BEST KOREA do.

 

[Sibylus]

When your internal channels for redressing wrongs are closed to you, the patriotic course of action is to sit down, shut up, and hope it gets better, and not find some means to tell the people? Oaths are important tools, but oaths are not the common good. Treason, to me, is putting compliance to an oath as a greater good than that common good. It's easy to cow to an oath when things become questionable, easier to keep one's skin, too.

When Clapper was led into a rhetorical gulley by Senator Wyden and faced one of two breaches of trust, either the oath he took or lying to the American people, he decided that lying to the American people was the lesser of two evils. If that is patriotism, then patriotism is sick to its utter core, and all the better it dies.

 

[kingkitty]

I wonder if Snowden gets free shots in Russia.

I think most americans see what snowden did regarding spying on US citizens the right thing. But I don't agree with his stance that he should release all the spying we do on other nations. I think most others think the same. I bet you the canadian public opinion would be a lot less lopsided if he was a canadian citizen releasing canadian secrets.

I'm sure Rob Ford agrees!

 

[Giant Panda]

Snowden is a hero. The fact that a large portion of Americans disagree makes me sad for my country. Hopefully the Germans at least treat Snowden as hero.

 

[Dram]

Is anyone going to buy Double Down, the sequel to Game Change?

 

[Piecake]

Snowden is a hero. The fact that a large portion of Americans disagree makes me sad for my country. Hopefully the Germans at least treat Snowden as hero.

I really don't understand how he could be considered a hero for releasing info on our spying activities on other countries. Did he do the right thing by blowing the whistle on the NSA's spying on american citizens? Definitely. Other countries? Nope

 

[Chichikov]

I really don't understand how he could be considered a hero for releasing info on our spying activities on other countries. Did he do the right thing by blowing the whistle on the NSA's spying on american citizens? Definitely. Other countries? Nope

The white house and congress didn't even know about that program, without Snowden's leaks it would've most likely continued.
You can argue it's a good problem, but surely even you can see the problems with the NSA executing such program without informing and against the will of the democratically elected bodies tasked with its oversight.

p.s.
Snowden is considered a hero by many because he assumed a great personal risk to advance a goal people find worthwhile, even if he made an error of judgment in leaking a specific piece of information (and I don't think so far he did) that doesn't change my big picture view of him.

 

[Piecake]

The white house and congress didn't even know about that program, without Snowden's leaks it would've most likely continued.
You can argue it's a good problem, but surely even you can see the problems with the NSA executing such program without informing and against the will of the democratically elected bodies tasked with its oversight.

p.s.
Snowden is considered a hero by many because he assumed a great personal risk to advance a goal people find worthwhile, even if he made an error of judgment in leaking a specific piece of information (and I don't think so far he did) that doesn't change my big picture view of him.

Program? They might not have known the specifics, but they definitely knew we were spying on foreigners. The only problem I have with spying on leaders of friendly countries is that it seems pretty stupid. The risk-reward doesnt seem to be worth it if it gets known. My thoughts is all it did was ruin America's reputation when every other country does it as well. Does that make it right? Well, like I said, I dont have an issue with spying on non-Americans. If both nations don't want that to happen, they can enter an agreement like we have with the British. Interestingly enough, both the US and France rejected such an agreement and now they are also complaining about that we are spying on them

 

[Oblivion]

Guys, it's finally happened. Obamacare has gone full Skynet:

 

[Chichikov]

Program? They might not have known the specifics, but they definitely knew we were spying on foreigners. The only problem I have with spying on leaders of friendly countries is that it seems pretty stupid. The risk-reward doesnt seem to be worth it if it gets known. My thoughts is all it did was ruin America's reputation when every other country does it as well. Does that make it right? Well, like I said, I dont have an issue with spying on non-Americans. If both nations don't want that to happen, they can enter an agreement like we have with the British. Interestingly enough, both the US and France rejected such an agreement and now they are also complaining about that we are spying on them

You don't think the NSA should have executive and congressional approval and oversight before wiretapping world leaders?
That sounds crazy for me.

And I don't think governments as a whole should be reading people's emails, I understand that there could be specific situations where that might be a necessary evil, but I don't think the stupid ass war on terror is one of them.
We are continuing a cold war framework (that by the way, was based in no small part on terrible misreading of the Soviet Union by the same people you think we should just trust blindly) and I don't think it's the smart way to go about things nor do I think it best serve American interests, but maybe more importantly, we need to have a discussion about that, and without people like Snowden, we wouldn't have a chance to do that.

 

[sc0la]

Heh

 

[Arrowgigantic]

You don't think the NSA should have executive and congressional approval and oversight before wiretapping world leaders?

Who's to say they don't? I'm trying to imagine an administration that doesn't want to spy on as many world leaders as possible.

 

[Sibylus]

Who's to say they don't? I'm trying to imagine an administration that doesn't want to spy on as many world leaders as possible.

Well, the administration and Senator Feinstein allege precisely that, and the latter alleges further that the entire Senate Intelligence Committee didn't know for nearly an entire decade. Not exactly a pretty picture to paint of the NSA, even if one assumes from the outset that the administration and Senate is lying for cover.

 

[Fox318]

Even if there were, it's still much less than the damages from, say, coal.

There's no such thing as a perfect source of energy. Anything that's less harmful than what we have now is an improvement. We shouldn't let the best be the enemy of the good.

Outside of current efficiency doesn't solar have the least downsides. Companies have been doing a better job installing and maintaining cells with robot automation.

Nuke would probably be the best if it wasn't for the risk of meltdowns.

 

[greepoman]

Snowden is a hero. The fact that a large portion of Americans disagree makes me sad for my country. Hopefully the Germans at least treat Snowden as hero.

While I won't defend the government's actions aren't you a little naive to automatically assume Snowden is 100 percent altruistic? He's taken asylum in Russia... isn't it possible he's given Russia much more sensitive info in exchange for asylum and money? Would he still be a hero if he had given up all the US agents working in Russia for that aforementioned asylum? Maybe an unrealistic example but not out of the realm of possibility.

In the very least do you not think Russia is monitoring him much more than the US ever did trying to get the info he has?

 

[Oblivion]

So Benghazi-gate was resurrected, only to be killed once again:

The Benghazi conspiracy theorists on the right seemed to be out of steam, right up until “60 Minutes” ran a report five days ago, which got conservative riled up all over again. Given what we learned about the CBS report today, it isn’t the Obama administration that owes the public a more forthcoming explanation.

The “60 Minutes” report, apparently a full year in the making, included one element that seemed entirely new. Viewers heard from a witness, who used the pseudonym Morgan Jones, who said he was there during the attack, scaled a 12-foot wall, beat an al Qaeda fighter with the butt of his rifle, and personally saw Ambassador Chris Stevens’ body.

Obviously, that’s quite a dramatic tale, and this man’s perspective was arguably the single most important new information in the “60 Minutes” segment. It matters a great deal, then, that the “witness” may not have actually been there. The Washington Post’s Karen DeYoung reports.

n a written account that Jones, whose real name was confirmed as Dylan Davies by several officials who worked with him in Benghazi, provided to his employer three days after the attack, he told a different story of his experiences that night.

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/benghazi-witness-may-not-have-been-there

 

[Chichikov]

While I won't defend the government's actions aren't you a little naive to automatically assume Snowden is 100 percent altruistic? He's taken asylum in Russia... isn't it possible he's given Russia much more sensitive info in exchange for asylum and money? Would he still be a hero if he had given up all the US agents working in Russia for that aforementioned asylum? Maybe an unrealistic example but not out of the realm of possibility.

In the very least do you not think Russia is monitoring him much more than the US ever did trying to get the info he has?

Nobody is 100% altruistic, but I don't hold against him the fact that he doesn't want to get thrown to an American jail for decades.
And I definitely don't hold hypothetical scenarios that aren't supported by evidence against him, though as always, I reserve the right to change my opinion if new information comes to light.

Edit: though honestly, I think his motives are the least important thing in this story.

 

[bananas]

Is anyone going to buy Double Down, the sequel to Game Change?

I will. Not sure if I'll get the Kindle or Audible version, though.

 

[jWILL253]

Slighly off-topic, but... I hate CNN now.

Now, we've all heard about the LAX shooting yesterday. Most of the major news stations covered it the same: Reported on it for a couple hours, moved on to something else. CNN, though? They've been talking about it all day! While that's not a problem in and of itself, it's more about the way they covered the event; it felt very forced. They invited evey living correspondent you could name to report and comment on the little imformation they gathered in such a short timeframe. I mean, they were having mental health correspondents commenting on the psyche of the shooter before they even knew the name of the shooter!

As they continued on and on about the same story, I noticed how at the bottom of the screen, a smidget of real news flashed on the screen in little blue letters: SNAP cuts begin today. That's when it hit me: CNN isn't even about news anymore; it's about the complete dumbing-down and insufferable milking of each and every trivial thing just for the sake of it, while real news is an afterthought. I started to see it with their milking of Healthcare.gov issues, but it never really hit me until now.

It's literally too painful to watch at this point...

 

[GhaleonEB]

Slighly off-topic, but... I hate CNN now.

Now, we've all heard about the LAX shooting yesterday. Most of the major news stations covered it the same: Reported on it for a couple hours, moved on to something else. CNN, though? They've been talking about it all day! While that's not a problem in and of itself, it's more about the way they covered the event; it felt very forced. They invited evey living correspondent you could name to report and comment on the little imformation they gathered in such a short timeframe. I mean, they were having mental health correspondents commenting on the psyche of the shooter before they even knew the name of the shooter!

As they continued on and on about the same story, I noticed how at the bottom of the screen, a smidget of real news flashed on the screen in little blue letters: SNAP cuts begin today. That's when it hit me: CNN isn't even about news anymore; it's about the complete dumbing-down and insufferable milking of each and every trivial thing just for the sake of it, while real news is an afterthought. I started to see it with their milking of Healthcare.gov issues, but it never really hit me until now.

It's literally too painful to watch at this point...

CNN hasn't been a news channel in many, many years and I advise anyone seeking actual news to completely avoid them.

 

[theprodigy]

CNN hasn't been a news channel in many, many years and I advise anyone seeking actual news to completely avoid them.

better question: when were they an actual news channel

 

[B-Dubs]

better question: when were they an actual news channel

There was a time, long ago when you could say CNN was news. In the days of old, when dinosaurs walked the earth. Now it's 23 hours of bullshit and 1 hour of news.

 

[KingGondo]

I went to CNN.com yesterday, and saw these two "happening now" headlines next to each other:

- Hundreds of bodies found in European mass grave
- Mac and cheese to be less yellow

I should have screen-capped it.

 

[The Technomancer]

Slighly off-topic, but... I hate CNN now.

As they continued on and on about the same story, I noticed how at the bottom of the screen, a smidget of real news flashed on the screen in little blue letters: SNAP cuts begin today. That's when it hit me: CNN isn't even about news anymore; it's about the complete dumbing-down and insufferable milking of each and every trivial thing just for the sake of it, while real news is an afterthought. I started to see it with their milking of Healthcare.gov issues, but it never really hit me until now.

It's literally too painful to watch at this point...

I'm still not sure of the proper alternative but I think that news for profit has become a fundamentally broken model now that news providers have realized that what people want isn't actually diverse in-depth coverage of important issues.

 

[TacticalFox88]

I'm still not sure of the proper alternative but I think that news for profit has become a fundamentally broken model now that news providers have realized that what people want isn't actually diverse in-depth coverage of important issues.

Nah. That's not it.

If there was actual MONEY to be made in who reported the most truth and who called out the most bullshit, then this wouldn't be a problem at all.

Problem is that its FAR more profitable to create a narrative of false equivalencies and outright lying than the opposite.

 

[zero shift]

That food stamp thread makes me cringe (on both sides of the matter). When will people understand that you do not blame a safety net but the structures of the system (low wage jobs, education costs, etc.).

Nah. That's not it.

If there was actual MONEY to be made in who reported the most truth and who called out the most bullshit, then this wouldn't be a problem at all.

Problem is that its FAR more profitable to create a narrative of false equivalencies and outright lying than the opposite.

That doesn't really go against his point. As much as people play up to professionalism of Walter Cronkite and BBC, the average person doesn't enjoy "boring" and "slow" coverage of legitimate events. They just want to hear their opinions reinforced. This is why Fox News is by far the number one "news" channel while MSNBC is number 2.

 

[The Technomancer]

Nah. That's not it.

If there was actual MONEY to be made in who reported the most truth and who called out the most bullshit, then this wouldn't be a problem at all.

Problem is that its FAR more profitable to create a narrative of false equivalencies and outright lying than the opposite.

Well that's kind of my point. Businesses make money by providing their customers with what they want. Their customers are the American public and since the American public is interested in this crap there's less money to be made in telling the truth and calling out bullshit.

 

[Wilsongt]

Heh

Heheheheheehe

 

[Fuchsdh]

The white house and congress didn't even know about that program, without Snowden's leaks it would've most likely continued.
You can argue it's a good problem, but surely even you can see the problems with the NSA executing such program without informing and against the will of the democratically elected bodies tasked with its oversight.

p.s.
Snowden is considered a hero by many because he assumed a great personal risk to advance a goal people find worthwhile, even if he made an error of judgment in leaking a specific piece of information (and I don't think so far he did) that doesn't change my big picture view of him.

Great personal risk would have been staying in the country. The fact that he fled and gave his info to foreign parties dampens any desire to call him a hero in my book. He's not some principled hero--whether or not we need serious reforms to our intelligence agencies is another question.

 

[empty vessel]

Well that's kind of my point. Businesses make money by providing their customers with what they want. Their customers are the American public and since the American public is interested in this crap there's less money to be made in telling the truth and calling out bullshit.

The customers of for-profit media are advertisers, not the American public. The American public is the product that for-profit media produces to sell to advertisers. That's why there is no real distinction between news and entertainment in terms of for-profit broadcasting. If there is not robust non-profit or public services, a society is effectively left without any news. This in turn causes people to vote for Republicans.

 

[demon]

Great personal risk would have been staying in the country. The fact that he fled and gave his info to foreign parties dampens any desire to call him a hero in my book. He's not some principled hero--whether or not we need serious reforms to our intelligence agencies is another question.

Bull. The guy sacrificed a wonderful life in the US for a life of seeking asylum in other countries and being branded a traitor by many in his country and government. And with how broken journalism is in this country I don't blame him for leaking the info to a foreign news agency.

 

[B-Dubs]

Bull. The guy sacrificed a wonderful life in the US for a life of seeking asylum in other countries and being branded a traitor by many in his country and government. And with how broken journalism is in this country I don't blame him for leaking the info to a foreign news agency.

As broken as it is there are still outlets he could have gone to and that would have published. Or is the NYTimes garbage now too?

 

[TacticalFox88]

Bull. The guy sacrificed a wonderful life in the US for a life of seeking asylum in other countries and being branded a traitor by many in his country and government. And with how broken journalism is in this country I don't blame him for leaking the info to a foreign news agency.

As noble as his actions were, he was an idiot to think it would change anything. Most Americans don't give a shit, like they always do.

 

[CoffeeJanitor]

Great personal risk would have been staying in the country. The fact that he fled and gave his info to foreign parties dampens any desire to call him a hero in my book. He's not some principled hero--whether or not we need serious reforms to our intelligence agencies is another question.

What the hell. While I don't exactly agree with everything he has to say the guy did a great service to the citizens of this country. Who would stay here after doing something like that? He would never get out of jail...

 

[Piecake]

That food stamp thread makes me cringe (on both sides of the matter). When will people understand that you do not blame a safety net but the structures of the system (low wage jobs, education costs, etc.).

Yup, I honestly think one of these structures that is the biggest culprit is employers being allowed to ask if you have a criminal history. I think that should be made illegal for any job that doesnt require a security clearance (maybe a few more).

Having a criminal record essentially blackballs people from working. I think it is simply unfair to continue to punish people after they served their time. Not to mention that it is pretty stupid policy because it just ensures that these people will remain poor and put them in a situation that they are much more likely to commit a crime again.

Why does this matter? Well, its pretty obvious from stop and frisk and people who are in prison for drug offenses that police have a greater presence in poor, minority neighborhoods and target poor minorities more often.

Target is actually doing some good in this regard. While they will still ask you about your criminal history, they will do it after making a provisional job offer, meaning that the person will have a chance to argue his case. Not perfect, but an improvement

Its also absurd that people with a criminal record are banned from voting. Fine, dont vote while you are in prison, i can sort of see that, but after? That shit should be unconstitutional.

 

[Manmademan]

What the hell. While I don't exactly agree with everything he has to say the guy did a great service to the citizens of this country. Who would stay here after doing something like that? He would never get out of jail...

One only needs to see what happened to Bradley Manning to see that waiting around in the country after leaking shit is for fools.

No WAY He's that stupid. I don't think anyone is. I think his original plan was to hang out in hong kong, but that didn't work out and he got stuck in a russian airport hightailing it somewhere else that would offer him asylum.

 

[PhoenixDark]

I think Snowden did the right thing, but calling him a "hero" seems very forced. If he stayed in the US and faced the consequences publicly (thus further embarrassing this administration), sure he'd be a hero or martyr.

 

[Sibylus]

What personal risk?

This is the part that really galls me. This guy accepted a job offer with the specific intent of using it to leak secrets. And, he's now set for life; Russia and other opponents of the U.S. are going to see to it that he's well taken care of to embarrass the United States.

His one condition for his asylum was the cessation of further leaks, and if allegations are true, he's accepted work for a web firm in the meantime. As yet nothing set up after the single year. If that's the best the GRU or some other organ of Russian intelligence can do for dastardly traitor-supreme Snowden, he's been laughably screwed.

 

[Kwixotik]

Hey, I have an assignment for sociology that I thought you guys might have good suggestions for. I have to write a paper about a fear campaign. It can be political, commercial, etc as long as it uses fear as a motivator. It can also be from any time period.

I don't watch much TV or keep up with ads like I figure you guys probably do for political ads, so if a good example pops in your head, I'd really appreciate the tip. Thanks.

 

[Drakeon]

Hey, I have an assignment for sociology that I thought you guys might have good suggestions for. I have to write a paper about a fear campaign. It can be political, commercial, etc as long as it uses fear as a motivator. It can also be from any time period.

I don't watch much TV or keep up with ads like I figure you guys probably do for political ads, so if a good example pops in your head, I'd really appreciate the tip. Thanks.

Look up LBJs daisy add, or better yet Joseph McCarthy.

 

[East Lake]

Watch The Power of Nighmares by Adam Curtis. Three part series.

https://archive.org/details/ThePowerOfNightmares-Episode1BabyItsColdOutside