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PoliGAF 2015 |OT| Keep Calm and Diablos On

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benjipwns

Banned
It's supposed to be wiping away whole swaths of deductions. But I didn't bother to read the whole thing because why would anyone.

I know people who make $500,000 a year are only lower middle class, but the tax increase on people under them is from 25-33% to 35%.

Collapsing the corporate codes into one and eliminating deductions and capital gains taxes is the best way to "close loopholes" on the ultra rich and further increase their share of taxes.
 
How do these kill the lower classes?

Even their bracket consolidation for income taxes raises taxes on individuals making between $75,000 and $411,500. Cutting taxes from 25% to 15% for individuals making $37,451-$74,999.

Personally, I'd do what the Bush Tax Cuts did and drop everyone in the current 10% bracket out all together (instead of almost doing it through deductions), but whatever they're dicks.

Any kind of corporate/capital tax consolidation is a good thing, elimination is even better. Especially if you're a weirdo who wants American companies to be more competitive and stay in America.

Never going to pass or probably get voted on Rubio 2016 plan is here: http://www.rubio.senate.gov/public/...?File_id=2d839ff1-f995-427a-86e9-267365609942

If you're single, you are taxed 10% on your first $9k (taxable income). Now you're being taxed 15% on that same income.

You don't pay 25% til you hit $37k.

Let's look at a married couple no kids and just standard deduction. Taxable income of $70k. Currently, they'd pay $9,600. Under this new plan $11,250.

These people are middle class. It's actually worse the lower you go, so at $50k it goes from $6,600 to $7,500 (looking at percentage of income as worse, not absolute value).

The above couple needs to earn around $85k in taxable income to break even with the current system.

Eliminating capital gains taxes is bad. We already have low effective corporate tax rates. I'm all for lowering the rate while cutting deductions (of course, the plan here increases them).

S Corps being pass-through is a good thing. They shouldn't be capped at 25%. And again, this benefits the upper class, not lower.

What I'm saying is, Virginia can file a lawsuit and seek a preliminary injunction, saying, "Look, our citizens getting subsidies is the status quo, we're likely to win on the merits regarding our claim that this is coercive, so you should require the federal government to continue providing credits until you enter a judgment."

Which is fine, but I'm saying after the judgment in that case it still takes 2-3 years to set up an exchange. What do you do then if you rule it's coercive and Va wants the subsidies!?
 
It's supposed to be wiping away whole swaths of deductions. But I didn't bother to read the whole thing because why would anyone.

I know people who make $500,000 a year are only lower middle class, but the tax increase on people under them is from 25-33% to 35%.

Most middle class and lower income earners don't use deductions outside the standard deduction. Some of these people are going to see a tax hike. It'll depend on things like the Child Credit and such.

Look, I want to cut down itemized deductions. But raising taxes on anyone not in the upper class is absurd.

Collapsing the corporate codes into one and eliminating deductions and capital gains taxes is the best way to "close loopholes" on the ultra rich and further increase their share of taxes.

How is eliminated capital gains taxes any good? I think that's a horrible idea. I'm on board with the corporate code, though. Then again, so is Obama.
 

ivysaur12

Banned
Amid Clinton controversies, Democrats seek alternative

OMalleysMarch.jpg

Nice arms.
 
Look, I want to cut down itemized deductions. But raising taxes on anyone not in the upper class is absurd.



How is eliminated capital gains taxes any good? I think that's a horrible idea. I'm on board with the corporate code, though. Then again, so is Obama.

Ditto to both. Though I would support a restructuring of capital gains taxes to reward actual investment over time. I'm curious what everyone thinks is "not in the upper class" though.
 

Amir0x

Banned

Haha. I did not remember seeing that post in the topic. Every time it still surprises me. No matter how often I repeat the golden GAF rule that "whatever opinion can be held on GAF, will be held of GAF", it never changes the little jolt of surprise at just how true that statement can be :<
 

benjipwns

Banned
Let's look at a married couple no kids and just standard deduction. Taxable income of $70k. Currently, they'd pay $9,600. Under this new plan $11,250.

These people are middle class. It's actually worse the lower you go, so at $50k it goes from $6,600 to $7,500 (looking at percentage of income as worse, not absolute value).
Not according to the chart in Rubio's document. Both of those would be paying the same amount as now.

There is a "donut hole" at the top of the current lowest bracket but I said they were dicks and that I'd do it ala Bush Tax Cuts and just drop that entire bracket out from the new ones.

How is eliminated capital gains taxes any good? I think that's a horrible idea.
Why should capital gains be taxed a second time at all? When they're realized they're income.

If you followed Ben Stein's advice and bought Bear Sterns in 2005 and held it you would have been taxed pretty highly on gains you never actually realized.

Just tax it with income.

I'm curious what everyone thinks is "not in the upper class" though.
Based on what I read on GAF, $500,000 a year is lower middle class. So anything under Floyd Mayweather is not upper class.

Nice arms.
Want to see more? There's a whole bunch of shirtless pictures of him if you GIS him because he's done the polar bear swim twice or something.
 

gcubed

Member
Sure, I'm ok with getting rid of capital gains taxes and instead taxing it as income, that's much higher taxes though.

Im also good with cutting the corporate tax rate to effective rate and cutting deductions to match. Is be willing to go under the current effective rate, the high corporate tax rate benefits large corporations at the expense of small companies having to pay near the actual rate
 
Not according to the chart in Rubio's document. Both of those would be paying the same amount as now.

There is a "donut hole" at the top of the current lowest bracket but I said they were dicks and that I'd do it ala Bush Tax Cuts and just drop that entire bracket out from the new ones.

His chart is a joke. He intentionally leaves out lower incomes. Single with 2 kids and $200k taxable income! Notice how he didn't put anyone on there single earning $25k?

My $50k example had no kids, so no $5k deduction. Today it's $2k so that $3k makes a big difference in your tax bill. The GOP hates single people.

As I said in my post there, $85k for married no kids is the break-even with nothing else added. It's $42.5 single. Every single example he gave was above that.

edit: I'd also like to point out that he's not even posting taxable income, he's posting AGI. The taxable income is lower since there's deductions he uses afterwards to reduce it. I never said a person earning $25k, I said taxable income of $25k.

Why should capital gains be taxed a second time at all? When they're realized they're income.

If you followed Ben Stein's advice and bought Bear Sterns in 2005 and held it you would have been taxed pretty highly on gains you never actually realized.

Uh, they're not taxed a second time and they're only tax when realized. If I buy apple stock, I don't pay taxes til I sell it at a profit. At no point was the money previously taxed.

Just tax it with income.

I agree, realized capital gains should be considered the same as wages for tax purposes.

But I have no idea where you're getting this double taxation thing from.
 

benjipwns

Banned
His chart is a joke. He intentionally leaves out lower incomes. Single with 2 kids and $200k taxable income! Notice how he didn't put anyone on there single earning $25k?
I don't think we're looking at the same charts. I'm looking at page 16 and 17.

Uh, they're not taxed a second time and they're only tax when realized. If I buy apple stock, I don't pay taxes til I sell it at a profit. At no point was the money previously taxed.

I agree, realized capital gains should be considered the same as wages for tax purposes.

But I have no idea where you're getting this double taxation thing from.
You're taxed at both ends of a capital gain. Not just when you realize it as income.
 

Metaphoreus

This is semantics, and nothing more
You don't get to deduct income just because you plan on investing it later.

I see. You mean capital assets are purchased using after-tax income. I don't think that makes capital gains subject to tax twice, though. When you sell a capital asset, you're not taxed on your basis in it (i.e., the value of the already-taxed money with which you purchased it).
 
I don't think we're looking at the same charts. I'm looking at page 16 and 17.

Those are the current tax brackets and the proposed ones. I'm not sure how those show that you pay the same???

You're taxed at both ends of a capital gain. Not just when you realize it as income.

No, you're not. I don't even know what the other end even is.

If I hold onto a stock, I'm not taxed on the unrealized gains.

You don't get to deduct income just because you plan on investing it later.

Now I think I figured the other end. Still, huh?

You're only taxed on the gain itself, not on the initial investment.

If I earn $50k and then pay taxes on that income, then take $10k of what's left and invest in Apple Stock, and it earns $5k, I only pay taxes on the $5k after I sell the stock, not on $15k. That initial investment amount is not taxed again.
 

benjipwns

Banned
The assets are taxed too.

If you just spend the after-tax income on goods or services, you aren't taxed again. (Well, sales tax.)

Those are the current tax brackets and the proposed ones. I'm not sure how those show that you pay the same???
Where else am I supposed to get figures for their hypothetical?
 
The assets are taxed too.

If you just spend the after-tax income on goods or services, you aren't taxed again. (Well, sales tax.)

Sales tax doesn't count now? I'm investing about 20k into a property remodel. Are all investment equal in your eyes or only the ones made on the market? I don't get to deduct that 20k. I Face the possibility of being taxed on my income taxed on the product that I'm buying to invest in my property and on the sale of my property later.
 

benjipwns

Banned
Sales tax doesn't count now? I'm investing about 20k into a property remodel. Are all investment equal in your eyes or only the ones made on the market? I don't get to deduct that 20k. I Face the possibility of being taxed on my income taxed on the product that I'm buying to invest in my property and on the sale of my property later.
What can you do, the mob is the mob.
 
The assets are taxed too.

If you just spend the after-tax income on goods or services, you aren't taxed again. (Well, sales tax.)

Taxed where? When is my initial investment into apple taxed?


Where else am I supposed to get figures for their hypothetical?

I really don't understand. They gave 4 hypotheticals at the end of the document. The two pages here simply give you the old and new tax scheme. You have to do the math yourself.

Why don't you explain to me how a single person and no kids with taxable income of $25k would see their tax bill unchanged according to those charts.

Sales tax doesn't count now? I'm investing about 20k into a property remodel. Are all investment equal in your eyes or only the ones made on the market? I don't get to deduct that 20k. I Face the possibility of being taxed on my income taxed on the product that I'm buying to invest in my property and on the sale of my property later.

Excise taxes (ie gas), utility taxes, airline travel fees, property tax (should you own), etc. We're double taxed all the time on our labor income.

capital gains suffers from the same form of double taxation but I have no idea how it's taxed before all that again. I feel like Benji is confusing something somewhere.
 

benjipwns

Banned
I really don't understand. They gave 4 hypotheticals at the end of the document. The two pages here simply give you the old and new tax scheme. You have to do the math yourself.

Why don't you explain to me how a single person and no kids with taxable income of $25k would see their tax bill unchanged according to those charts.
I forgot about adjusting the old brackets because they cut it down to two lol
 

Metaphoreus

This is semantics, and nothing more
The assets are taxed too.

Well, sure, if you give it away as a taxable gift or die with it in a taxable estate (neither of which is likely for the vast majority of Americans), then the fair market value of the asset will be subjected to the gift or estate tax (and, depending on to whom you give it away, potentially the generation-skipping tax, too). But as for the income tax , the IRC only imposes a tax on gains (subsection (a)) from the sale of an asset, calculated by subtracting the adjusted basis from the amount realized. Like BM said, if you buy an asset for $10,000 (which is your original basis), and later sell the asset for $15,000 (your amount realized), then you only pay tax on the difference between those two, or $5,000 (assuming no adjustments to your basis, such as depreciation). But you won't have to pay income tax on the return of your $10,000.
 

benjipwns

Banned
Forget it Meta and BM, I'm trying to do five things at once. (And I'm also an idiot on top of that.)

I'm saying you're taxed reducing your ability to invest, then taxed when you get the gain. The gain is altered because of taxation on the assets prior to your selling. So it's taxed on purchase and sale, consumption is only taxed on purchase.

In any case it's silly, if you're going to tax income, tax individual income once.
 
Y'all racist for hating the dark theme.
And I've realized I'm pre-judging people too harshly based on their
anime
avatars, and since I want to be an equal opportunity asshole, the avatars had to go.

posts image calling a guy a bro.
is called a hater.

This is why you don't major in history, folks.
 

benjipwns

Banned
White theme now, white theme tomorrow, white theme forever.

Dino theme now, dino theme tomorrow, dino theme forever.
 

Chichikov

Member
posts image calling a guy a bro.
is called a hater.

This is why you don't major in history, folks.
That picture looked angry, I thought it was like, "oh brother" or something.
I'm not particularly bright
and I don't get the history major dig
.

It's actually a GAFPlat--wait, if you don't know then I can't talk to you about it.
Typical poligaf elitist.
Dark theme for life, the working man's theme.
 

benjipwns

Banned
Modern media and the destructive representation of conservativism
Although rightfully excoriated for his comments comparing public unions to ISIS, Gov. Scott Walker’s (R-Wis.) treatment by the media continues to highlight the gross disparity in the way with which conservative candidates are analyzed and represented, when compared to their liberal counterparts. Whereas Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-Mass.), Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) and Hillary Clinton are all hailed for their various policy proposals, as well as their personal and professional achievements, individuals like Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.), Gov. Chris Christie (R-N.J.) and Sen. Ted Cruz (R-Texas) are ruthlessly assailed for every quip or comment, be they contextual or otherwise.

This was patently evident in 2008 as well as 2012, and will most assuredly be applicable once again in 2016. From tales of Mitt Romney’s elementary school bullying, to reports about Paul’s “Aqua Buddha” college days, the depths to which modern media apparatuses will dredge in order to invalidate a Republican’s candidacy, surpasses even those explored by the Trieste. This is highly problematic, as it only takes an anonymous comment, erroneous claim, or an unverified accusation, in order to destroy the legitimacy of a right leaning contender. This same approach however, would be understandable if it were equally applied to both sides of the political aisle, but seldom is that ever the case.

Each of the aforementioned Democratic heavyweights has more baggage than a gypsy caravan, but what few stories do make it to print regarding their issues are typically brief, excused, and quickly forgotten. It may not seem like much, but such a handicap with relation to past misdeeds or suspected skullduggery can (quite effectively and easily mind you), tilt and distort the public’s perception of a given individual. When this happens predominantly to GOP candidates, the hazards become quite clear.
Tea Partiers are dismissed outright, while socialist fringes on the left are never acknowledged nor addressed. Adjectives such as “wacko, crazy, radical, extremist, fundamentalist, and myopic” have become synonymous with the Republican Party, whilst Democrats are only reported to be pragmatic or “slightly more progressive”. Even thoroughly debunked claims have been routinely utilized to attack conservative hopefuls.

Two weeks before the Iowa caucus, former Texas Rep. Ron Paul (R) surged to a comfortable and timely lead, although immediately upon attaining said position; questions regarding racist newsletters bearing his name were suddenly raised. Given the nature of the accusations, such inquiries could have been viewed as reasonable, if only the articles hadn’t been penned some 25 years earlier, and discredited no fewer than 10 times since.

Unlike Paul however, the discourse surrounding New York Governor Andrew Cuomo, has already pivoted from questionable associations, to his plans for statewide reforms. This has all transpired less than two weeks after it was revealed that the speaker of the New York Assembly, Sheldon Silver, had been taking millions in bribes in exchange for various kickbacks. Cuomo, although not charged, had been accused of interfering with the Moreland Commission, a body he started (and eventually disbanded) in order to root out said instances of corruption. Yet now, rather than looking deeper, journalistic lap dogs, content with warming the thighs of a high profile Democrat, have moved on to more important issues, like raising the state’s minimum wage.
And yet the encumbrances placed upon conservatives by media outlets, extend far beyond refuting purported wrongdoing. Policy proposals are held against anecdotal sob stories and hyperbolic rhetoric, while missteps are often sufficient cause for the evisceration of not only the individual in question, but also all those with whom he or she is aligned. Rep. Paul Ryan (R-Wis.), in attempting to advance his plan for the economy was brutally denigrated because his agenda would “decimate the poor”, while Mitt Romney on the other hand was bewilderingly attacked for his “binders full of women” comment.

For Conservatives, it’s a no win situation, as the sins of one are often linked to distant cohorts in even the most tenuous manner available. Todd Akin’s ignorant and inflammatory rhetoric regarding rape and pregnancy became a clamorous blunder that had media personalities demanding apologies from the likes of Reince Priebus in addition to other leading party figures. However, when house member Rep. Charlie Rangel (D-N.Y.) called Tea Partiers “white crackers”, and further emphasized how he only cared for life in war when the fallen looked like him, it’s was just business as usual; dumpster fires will burn and Rep. Shelia Jackson Lee (D-Texas) will say astonishingly idiotic things, nothing to see, no further comment.

Frustratingly, the list goes on and on and the resulting predicament is rightfully distressing; successful democracies are dependent upon the informed consent of the general electorate, and when balanced reporting is forsworn in favor of advancing a given ideology or individual, it threatens the body in entirety.

Without question, many in the media see conservatism as an ailment that hinders societal advancement, while viewing progressivism as the logical cure. The trouble only arises however, when journalists begin to act as the attending physician, practicing medicine on a patient who neither wants nor needs their assistance. In doing so, we have arrived at place where relativist absolutes hang around the neck of contemporary Republican candidates like a tire filled with petrol.
Morris is a graduate student at the University of Oklahoma, and am pursuing a masters' in International Relations.
 

benjipwns

Banned
Subtle joke or correction warranted?!?
Richard Vandiamondsworth • 3 hours ago
It's common knowledge 99% of the media work as propagandists for demmunists, not counting hollywood and government schools.

Real journalism is dead, yet Conservatives remain in denial. Instead of taking their message (when they have one) directly to the people, they stupidly allow their enemies to speak for them.

Until the Right accepts politics is not a gentlemen's duel but a street fight in an alley, they will lose.
Jus'speakin'th'truth • 19 minutes ago
Cry me a freakin' river. The Republican party has 24/7/365 AM radio worldwide, it has Fox News (which Conservatives never stop bragging about its high viewership), it has billions of dollars in backing from the wealthiest men in the country, it has Drudge linking to the wide, wild world of wingnut websites.

And, after 2+ decades of accusing Hillary Clinton from everything from graft to lesbianism to murder to treason, I don't want to hear a single whine from any White Boy Tea-baggers...
chasrmartin • an hour ago
Interestingly, you have a perfect example in your lede. You write:

Although rightfully excoriated for his comments comparing public unions to ISIS,

But what walker actually *said* was:

At the end of a long response to a question about the terrorist group, Walker said, “If I can take on 100,000 protesters, I can do the same across the globe.”

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...s_to_isis_he_just_said_something_foolish.html

No mention of ISIS.

Either this was a very subtle joke, or a correction might be warranted.
 

Metaphoreus

This is semantics, and nothing more
Continuing Constitutional Difficulties in Implementing the Voting Rights Act

Ilya Shapiro & Julio Colomba said:
Sue Evenwel is a citizen of the United States and of the state of Texas. She is a registered voter in Titus County and regularly votes in local and state elections. How is it, then, that Ms. Evenwel’s vote in a Texas state senate race is worth only about half that of certain other voters? The answer lies somewhere at the intersection of bad law and even worse politics that the modern Voting Rights Act has become.

...

As Cato has warned before—in our amicus briefs in Perry v. Perez and Shelby County v. Holder—the courts are at a “bloody crossroads” when interpreting what have become the conflicting mandates of the VRA. To give one example, the courts have found that Section 2 requires race-based redistricting to prevent loss of minority voting power, while at the same time, the Fifteenth Amendment (and the currently inoperable VRA Section 5) prohibits discrimination in voting on the basis of race.

The conflicts go on: as Ms. Evenwel’s case demonstrates, Section 2’s requirements clash with the Fourteenth Amendment’s equal-protection guarantee. In response to the pressures of satisfying Section 2, Texas adopted a court-drawn, interim redistricting plan for state senate districts. To ensure that racial minorities’ voting power isn’t diluted, however, the plan instead dilutes the voting power of rural voters by equalizing “total population” among districts instead of using the “citizens of voting age population” (CVAP) metric. The result of this choice is that the high number of non-voting-eligible immigrants—whether legal or illegal—in Texas’s urban centers wildly inflates the voting power of the relatively fewer eligible voters who also reside in those urban districts.

This is not just a distortion of American democracy; it’s a distortion of the “One Person, One Vote” principle inherent in the Fourteenth Amendment Equal Protection Clause. The Supreme Court has said before that voting districts should be as close in voting population as is feasible to protect the equal right to vote. Thanks to outmoded judicial interpretations of the VRA, the Court should now have another chance to explain what that means.

I haven't yet read the amicus brief referred to in the article. Secretly, I'm only posting this because of the authors' Dark Knight reference:

Ilya Shapiro & Julio Colomba said:
It has been several decades now since this important and proud work but now, sadly, the heroic VRA has lived long enough to see itself become a villain.

L1KI3ex.gif
 

benjipwns

Banned
I haven't yet read the amicus brief referred to in the article.
Don't bother:
Cato and the Reason Foundation have filed an amicus brief
That's two, count 'em, two Koch funded Propaganda Machines.

The court should just order that voting rights be expanded to all immigrants. Problem solved.

Wait, and ban any use of any kind of voter ID. Problem permanently solved.
 

benjipwns

Banned
Yes, mandatory voting but with no log of who voted. And don't count the votes either. Put all the ballots into a giant size tumbler (JOBS!) and pick one out, those are the winners. Repeat until all offices are filled and referenda passed/rejected.
 

Metaphoreus

This is semantics, and nothing more
Yes, mandatory voting but with no log of who voted. And don't count the votes either. Put all the ballots into a giant size tumbler (JOBS!) and pick one out, those are the winners. Repeat until all offices are filled and referenda passed/rejected.

Is this a running theme tonight or something?
 

benjipwns

Banned
I refuse to recognize that vehicle and the notion that Batman could drive it over the top of police cars without killing the police inside.

Wait, I'm caring about the police, agents of the state, against a state monopoly on violence rejecting billionaire who operates by his own moral code?
 

Chichikov

Member
I refuse to recognize that vehicle and the notion that Batman could drive it over the top of police cars without killing the police inside.

Wait, I'm caring about the police, agents of the state, against a state monopoly on violence rejecting billionaire who operates by his own moral code?
Batman just wanted to establish a new monopoly on Batmen. I mean shit, he tried to kill the new Batman market just as it was being born.

Way to pick winners and losers dickwad, a real American would've trusted the market to correct itself.
 

benjipwns

Banned
Of course he wanted to establish a monopoly on Batmen, and look where it led him, broken and bankrupt, his city cut off by a new warlord because he relied on the state which stupidly sent all its police forces into the sewers, until he magically healed his back through the power of montages and was saved by another anti-state capitalist hero Selina Kyle.

Oh, if you're done with our argument in the other thread, or not, I just wanted to express my enjoyment of our occasional lovingly sparring. I find it to be cordial, fruitful, high-minded and entertainingly meandering. (I'll let you decide which parts you bring to the table and which parts I do, you maliciously ill-informed son of a bitch.)
 
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