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[Macho Madness]

Yeesh, anybody know if there is video of that Bernie event?

They're reshowing it live right now: http://original.livestream.com/theuptake

 

[B-Dubs]

A Sixers and a Lions Fan? Benji, why do you hate yourself?

At least he's not a Cubs fan. All the Cubs fans I know couldn't stop waiting for the other shoe to drop all season, even after they made the play-offs. Those guys could win the World Series and their fans still wouldn't stop waiting for something to go wrong.

 

[East Lake]

Shape the narrative brehs.

Sanders acknowledged that he and Perry might have differences. It’s not just black people, he said -- there were Latinos and poor whites as well. He said the time to start investing in poor communities was “long overdue.”

“I’ve said black 50 times,” he said. “That’s the 51st time.” The audience laughed and applauded. “This is a national issue. …What I believe we should do is to invest most heavily in those communities most in need and when you have 35 percent of black children living in poverty …when youth unemployment in the African-American community is 51 percent, those are exactly the kinds of communities you invest in.”

As the forum wound down, White Earth Ojibwe activist Clyde Bellecourt stepped up from the audience to complain at length about injustices faced by American Indians. Moderator Anthony Newb repeatedly tried to cut him off, asking that he state a question.

“This is a black forum,” Newby said at one point.

“This is people of color and I’m one of those people of color!” Bellecourt said.

Sanders waved to the crowd, signaling it was time to go. He was headed to the annual Humphrey-Mondale fundraising dinner in St. Paul, where his Democratic rival Hillary Clinton was also attending. “We love you Bernie!” someone yelled.

Yikes.

http://www.startribune.com/sen-bernie-sanders-appears-in-north-minneapolis-at-forum/368674581/

 

[DataStream]

I'm interested to see if this gets all that much play.

Perhaps he should prepare a speech about race that let's him clearly articulate his points and how we address concerns of the community. Reparations is a hot potato and no candidate is going to give a satisfactory answer there.

 

[And_Gignac]

Yeesh, anybody know if there is video of that Bernie event?

Here. This is the part people are refering.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6Qp1SJTIW4&t=23m

It was kind of a mess at the end.

 

[NeoXChaos]

Here. This is the part people are refering.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6Qp1SJTIW4&t=23m

It was kind of a mess at the end.

what a mess.

 

[B-Dubs]

I'm interested to see if this gets all that much play.

Perhaps he should prepare a speech about race that let's him clearly articulate his points and how we address concerns of the community. Reparations is a hot potato and no candidate is going to give a satisfactory answer there.

The problem is that he's promising the moon and the sun and all the stars in the sky on a lot of progressive issues (things we all know will never get done), only he can't seem to find it in him to do so on racial issues. That's a legitimate thing to complain about. The revolution seems to be leaving some people out, and as always their skin color isn't what you would call white.

 

[User 463088]

The problem is that he's promising the moon and the sun and all the stars in the sky on a lot of progressive issues (things we all know will never get done), only he can't seem to find it in him to do so on racial issues. That's a legitimate thing to complain about. The revolution seems to be leaving some people out, and as always their skin color isn't what you would call white.

I don't understand why he's so bad at handling racial issues. I mean, he's never had to deal with it before at a constituent level, but still....Someone needs to let him talk but stand behind him with a ruler. Every time he goes into his stump speech, hit him with it. Really, why can he not talk about race? Does he feel unqualified to do so?

 

[benjipwns]

I'm not a Sixers fan, I had uploaded that for one. But fuck did I love The Process and how much it pissed off people. It's the smartest play by far within the system that exists. (It's like Trump "exploiting" free media instead of spending anything on a campaign. You dummies set it up that way, how is it his fault for taking advantage.)

If Hinkie never traded MCW, I feel he would have been spared another season to carry it out fully and add four plus first rounders next season.

Benji should be a bernie stan

Is there a Libertarian case for sanders?

This is actually a good article

Ha, Will Wilkinson. It's like he's determined to prove to the paleo's that he always was the communist in disguise they thought he was.

I noted before that Sanders for me beat out Cruz as the post-Rand slot within The Party. isidewith and those other quizzes have always put me at stuff like Rand (80%)-Sanders (65%)-Someone (30%).

And I've argued on here both for and against guaranteed incomes/single payer health care. (For versus the current welfare kludge/Obamacare disaster.) Which isn't all that absurd of libertarian/anarchist position if one isn't a revolutionary. Especially if the person recognizes they have features that are better moves to libertarian ends than the harsh blowback of eliminating statist programs in a wanton immediate manner. The bureaucracy is the enemy, not those receiving government assistance. (They can easily be crushed under the tires of our flaming guitar playing dude on the hood vehicles in the wastelands.)

My Bernie staning is really just Hillary bashing though. Also a disbelief that anyone can actually like her. Huma's got some kind of Stockholm Syndrome.

On and just for the record there's a Libertarian argument for anything because the term has a history that started on the left side of politics and has meandered around history like a drunk leaving groups who all consider themselves Libertarians everywhere on the political spectrum.

The spread is more a fundamental debate about what makes and decides ownership of property. It's why both "wings" of the libertarian argument fall towards anarchist arguments

The modern libertarian movement only snatched up the term well after the original left libertarians had abandoned it for either the anarchist and/or communist movements in general and the progressives stole "liberal" and conservative had just been redefined. Most of the historical libertarian groups died off and washed away before The War, and definitely did after. The birth of the New Left is what let the label back out really, I like to say it was Karl Hess' doing because of how many pictures of him shirtless hanging around with the dredges of the New Left there are compared to pictures of him "properly dressed" teaching courses.

Him and Murray ripping on Ayn was the high point of the libertarian movement in my opinion until that guy got elected in Australia due to donkey votes.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

Bernie can't talk about race because it's really only in the last decade that intersectionalism has started to become the predominant liberal ideology. For the majority of his adult life, class was the hammer, and every nail looked like income inequality.

 

[Indicate]

As I said, some people are claiming its Bernie, but four other people who were there said it was not him and instead a man named Bruce Rapport, who died in 2006.

Throw in the school archive says it isn't him, and you see how the media is investigating this. Time, Washington Post, CNN, etc...

http://photoarchive.lib.uchicago.edu/db.xqy?one=apf4-01698.xml

There's also this.

The slander that Bernie was not a very early leader for African American civil rights got so outrageous that persons went into the archives of the University of Chicago and changed captions on Danny Lyon’s 1962 photos, claiming it was Bruce Rappaport standing in Bernie’s clothing leading the demonstration in the Ad Building. These newly discovered pictures, including close up photographs of the student activists show us exactly what Bernie was and what he remains.

https://dektol.wordpress.com/2016/02/11/more-bernie-civil-rights-photos-found/

 

[B-Dubs]

I don't understand why he's so bad at handling racial issues. I mean, he's never had to deal with it before at a constituent level, but still....Someone needs to let him talk but stand behind him with a ruler. Every time he goes into his stump speech, hit him with it. Really, why can he not talk about race? Does he feel unqualified to do so?

It's probably not something he's overly concerned with.

That doesn't mean he doesn't care or think that racial justice is unimportant or that he's on the wrong side of history, all it means is his interests lay elsewhere and he can't be bothered to brush up on this stuff.

 

[NeoXChaos]

It's probably not something he's overly concerned with.

That doesn't mean he doesn't care or think that racial justice is unimportant or that he's on the wrong side of history, all it means is his interests lay elsewhere and he can't be bothered to brush up on this stuff.

will this hurt him in SC?

 

[shinra-bansho]

Shape the narrative brehs.

Yikes.

http://www.startribune.com/sen-bernie-sanders-appears-in-north-minneapolis-at-forum/368674581/

That makes the comment sound better received than the Politico piece. Yet, I don't think it's just "narrative" that as of now, he tends to try and pivot the race debate into one of largely economics.

 

[B-Dubs]

will this hurt him in SC?

I can't imagine it'll help. Then again, what do I know? We'll find out when we get some new polling I suppose.

 

[DataStream]

Watching the actual town hall from the start and thus far and it must have gone of the rails at some point because people have been very receptive and in favor of him thus far.

 

[And_Gignac]

I don't understand why he's so bad at handling racial issues. I mean, he's never had to deal with it before at a constituent level, but still....Someone needs to let him talk but stand behind him with a ruler. Every time he goes into his stump speech, hit him with it. Really, why can he not talk about race? Does he feel unqualified to do so?

He is probably fueled by old fashioned marxist rethoric and honestly believes every single social injustice can be resolved with wealth redistribution. Which is a good thing to believe in, but he should know better as an immigrant and the son of Jew refugee.

It is frustrating since he has had 6 months to educate himself. Look at the swift education he displayed after his dismayal Foreign Policy performance during the CNN debate. He doesnt even need to change his stump speech: you can easily tie Wall Street to racial oppression and white supremacy. But he prefers to stick to just the economic side of it.

 

[Macho Madness]

Will this get a thread?

Source: Clinton to be endorsed next week by Myrlie Evers and Kweisi Mfume, two former heads of NAACP.

https://twitter.com/mtomasky/status/698295935302930432

 

[East Lake]

That makes the comment sound better received than the Politico piece. Yet, I don't think it's just "narrative" that as of now, he tends to try and pivot the race debate into one of largely economics.

I think it's fair to say he's more focused on economics, and also fair to say he's clumsy when he has to tie the two together. Often this morphs into the argument that he literally thinks everything goes back to economics which isn't even remotely true but is convenient for argument's sake.

 

[User 463088]

It's probably not something he's overly concerned with.

That doesn't mean he doesn't care or think that racial justice is unimportant or that he's on the wrong side of history, all it means is his interests lay elsewhere and he can't be bothered to brush up on this stuff.

I mean, ya. I agree, actually, when I think about it. It's sad though.

He is probably fueled by old fashioned marxist rethoric and honestly believes every single social injustice can be resolved with wealth redistribution. Which is a good thing to believe in, but he should know better as an immigrant and the son of Jew refugee.

It is frustrating since he has had 6 months to educate himself. Look at the swift education he displayed after his dismayal Foreign Policy performance during the CNN debate. He doesnt even need to change his stump speech: you can easily tie Wall Street to racial oppression and white supremacy. But he prefers to stick to just the economic side of it.

Again, I agree, however, he continually reinforces that he is his own worst enemy. He really needs to take a step back and realize that he isn't running for President of the Economy. Someone needs to sit him down. Of course, his campaign is full of idiots, so....

Will this get a thread?



https://twitter.com/mtomasky/status/698295935302930432

Something something establishment.

 

[B-Dubs]

I think it's fair to say he's more focused on economics, and also fair to say he's clumsy when he has to tie the two together. Often this morphs into the argument that he literally thinks everything goes back to economics which isn't even remotely true but is convenient for argument's sake.

He needs to stop tying them together, that's the problem everyone's having. He needs to be able to talk about race without talking about economics.

I mean, ya. I agree, actually, when I think about it. It's sad though.

Specializing like that isn't a bad thing, it can be useful at times, but just not when it comes to the job he's interviewing for.

 

[Officerrob]

Will this get a thread?



https://twitter.com/mtomasky/status/698295935302930432

Probably, but there are too many political threads over in OT IMO

 

[NeoXChaos]

Will this get a thread?



https://twitter.com/mtomasky/status/698295935302930432

we have enough Bernie threads going on from reparations for blacks thread # 2 to DNC shill for Hillary # 5 to superdelegates are a fraud.

 

[Officerrob]

He needs to stop tying them together, that's the problem everyone's having. He needs to be able to talk about race without talking about economics.

I'm beginning to think Bernie would argue that Wall Street is the cause of erectile dysfunction

 

[titiklabingapat]

beaten

but yes the smears are getting inventive

If Sanders cannot survive this, he has no business being in the GE smear campaign open season.

 

[Iolo]

I'm beginning to think Bernie would argue that Wall Street is the cause of erectile dysfunction

Right to Rise

 

[VendettaRed07]

Will this get a thread?



https://twitter.com/mtomasky/status/698295935302930432

Only if it turns out one of their brother's, cousin's, half-sister's father's best man at his wedding knew a guy who bumped into someone who worked on wallstreet once

 

[B-Dubs]

I'm beginning to think Bernie would argue that Wall Street is the cause of erectile dysfunction

That depends entirely on your fetishes.

 

[Rafa=FedKilla]

I want Trump to flatout attack Cruz about the Christianity/lying stuff at a televised debate. Press him on it. If the guy is going to present himself as this perfect representative, I want him to have to speak on the issue of his lying.

Carson had every opportunity to last debate. But it's not in his demeanor. "This is what political correctness does to people. It's allowed Christians to attack other Christians and allowed government to impose itself on 'We The People'."

 

[Brawndo Addict]

Economic injustice doesn't impact everyone equally.Sanders doesn't seem to understand or be willing to grapple with that fact.

In 2010, 27.4 percent of blacks and 26.6 percent of Hispanics were poor, compared to 9.9 percent of non-Hispanic whites and 12.1 percent of Asians. Blacks have double the unemployment rate, poorer educational attainment, the list goes on and on. The way Sanders tells it there's no difference.

 

[East Lake]

He needs to stop tying them together, that's the problem everyone's having. He needs to be able to talk about race without talking about economics.

I don't think that's really his problem. For instance he can talk narrowly about police killings or something, but nearly all the questions on minorities he'll get will be largely framed in economic terms. Day to day people care about putting food on the table. At that point the stump speech is relevant but also repetitive and kind of abstract.

 

[shinra-bansho]

He needs to stop tying them together, that's the problem everyone's having. He needs to be able to talk about race without talking about economics.

Specializing like that isn't a bad thing, it can be useful at times, but just not when it comes to the job he's interviewing for.

I think it's probably hard when it's been the focus of your career and is something he really deeply cares about. I think he probably goes to sleep and wakes up thinking about income inequality. It's probably constantly top of mind. It's hard to unlearn. And it leads to weird things like talking about FDR and the economy when asked about foreign policy inspirations.

Clinton by contrast has been laundry list, which again probably reflects the candidate. And has been her weakness in terms of coming across unfocused.

 

[East Lake]

Economic injustice doesn't impact everyone equally.Sanders doesn't seem to understand or be willing to grapple with that fact.

In 2010, 27.4 percent of blacks and 26.6 percent of Hispanics were poor, compared to 9.9 percent of non-Hispanic whites and 12.1 percent of Asians. Blacks have double the unemployment rate, etc, etc.

He has probably mentioned statistics just like this well over a hundred times at his rallies at this point.

 

[FloydtheFathead]

At least he's not a Cubs fan. All the Cubs fans I know couldn't stop waiting for the other shoe to drop all season, even after they made the play-offs. Those guys could win the World Series and their fans still wouldn't stop waiting for something to go wrong.

At least they have the Blackhawks.. Plus, aren't they the favorites going into next season?

But That's basically the life of a Cleveland Sports Fan. They are going to fuck it up somehow and in new and amazing ways. Also now Jimmy Haslem may still be getting indicted soon for being a crook Adam.

Why God.. Why.

Damn crooked fat cats, Bernie is right.

 

[Brawndo Addict]

He has probably mentioned statistics just like this well over a hundred times at his rallies at this point.

Knowing the statistic is different from understanding why it exists. Sanders doesn't talk about economics with rhetoric that reflects those underpinnings. It's a one-size fits all approach.

 

[East Lake]

Knowing the statistic is different from understanding why it exists. Sanders doesn't talk about economics with rhetoric that reflects those underpinnings. It's a one-size fits all approach.

There is literally a guy in the forum we we were talking about that asks him a question and begins with saying certain socialist policies were racist and led to high black unemployment, and Bernie responds saying he was right. This is basically a fiction you're holding onto however clumsily Bernie deals with it.

 

[kirblar]

There is literally a guy in the forum we we were talking about that asks him a question and begins with saying certain socialist policies were racist and led to high black unemployment, and Bernie responds saying he was right. This is basically a fiction you're holding onto.

The problem is that dealing with the economics alone only treats the symptom.

 

[B-Dubs]

There is literally a guy in the forum we we were talking about that asks him a question and begins with saying certain socialist policies were racist and led to high black unemployment, and Bernie responds saying he was right. This is basically a fiction you're holding onto.

And then his solution is a one-size-fits-all approach.

 

[East Lake]

I'm starting to believe postmodernism.

 

[Overlee]

I'm starting to believe postmodernism.

You know what's up. The silent revolution is getting a lot louder!

 

[Elaugaufein]

The spread is more a fundamental debate about what makes and decides ownership of property. It's why both "wings" of the libertarian argument fall towards anarchist arguments

The modern libertarian movement only snatched up the term well after the original left libertarians had abandoned it for either the anarchist and/or communist movements in general and the progressives stole "liberal" and conservative had just been redefined. Most of the historical libertarian groups died off and washed away before The War, and definitely did after. The birth of the New Left is what let the label back out really, I like to say it was Karl Hess' doing because of how many pictures of him shirtless hanging around with the dredges of the New Left there are compared to pictures of him "properly dressed" teaching courses.

Him and Murray ripping on Ayn was the high point of the libertarian movement in my opinion until that guy got elected in Australia due to donkey votes.

I will defer to your superior knowledge.

If we're thinking of the same guy it wasn't donkey votes it was people who couldn't be bothered to read enough to notice that Liberal =/= Liberal Democrats. Which is an excellent argument against democracy.

You might be talking about the NSW guy though where you're correct.

 

[Abinash117]

He is probably fueled by old fashioned marxist rethoric and honestly believes every single social injustice can be resolved with wealth redistribution. Which is a good thing to believe in, but he should know better as an immigrant and the son of Jew refugee.

It is frustrating since he has had 6 months to educate himself. Look at the swift education he displayed after his dismayal Foreign Policy performance during the CNN debate. He doesnt even need to change his stump speech: you can easily tie Wall Street to racial oppression and white supremacy. But he prefers to stick to just the economic side of it.

I seen him do that and I think it isn't something that is going to work. Plus, it is pretty ridiculous because again it assumes that somehow tackling wallstreet the money will tickle down and minorities will be rich and racism is going to be diminished significantly. Racism and the issues that minorities face has some to do with class, but a lot of it has little to do it with as well.

It is going to be very hard to convince some people that the main problem is a group of extremely rich people is keeping the money away from them. If Bernie is going to push that he needs to say how much of that money is going to go to AAs specifically, how exactly this is going to make their neighborhoods better, and will that money will actually going go to those people and not some other group. I wonder did anyone specify this. I doubt many people is going to believe that their issues are entirely or mostly economic ones. He needs to separate class from race if he keeps talking about banks, wallstreet, trade, and corporations he will gain little. Colorblind policies probably aren't going to work or there is thinking that it won't.

 

[benjipwns]

Something something establishment.

Ben Jealous another NAACP head had already endorsed Sanders, tainting his campaign.

I will defer to your superior knowledge.

If we're thinking of the same guy it wasn't donkey votes it was people who couldn't be bothered to read enough to notice that Liberal =/= Liberal Democrats. Which is an excellent argument against democracy.

You might be talking about the NSW guy though where you're correct.

I want to say the guy was named something like Aaron Aaronson.

EDIT: Guess it was his parties position on the ballot: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Leyonhjelm

Running for the Australian Senate in New South Wales at the 2013 federal election, Leyonhjelm was elected to the fifth of six vacancies.[25] The Liberal Democrats polled 9.50 percent of the first-preference vote,[26] with the vast majority of this coming from people voting above the line.[27] The result for the LDP in New South Wales was partly attributed to the "donkey vote", with the party occupying first position on a ballot paper with a record number of candidates.[28] Confusion with the Liberal Party of Australia and other similarly named parties was also thought to have played a part, with a writer in The Age suggesting Leyonhjelm was "probably the only senator elected because people mistook his party for another"

Then he immediately tried to destroy Australia:

In November 2014, Leyonhjelm introduced as a private member's bill a Freedom to Marry Bill, which would allow same-sex and other forms of non-heterosexual marriage

 

[NeoXChaos]

why hasnt free college been taken up by any state? why hasnt a public option been take up by a state?

 

[Elaugaufein]

As a hypothetical do you believe that if the racial distribution of the top 20% of income earners (carried to each group with in to some arbitrarily fine grain where we don't need Lego genetics) was reversed tomorrow that it wouldn't have significant knock on effects ?


I'd be pretty confident that it would. The modern Republican party would collapse as soon as the Establishment ran out of cash for one thing.

 

[benjipwns]

why hasnt free college been taken up by any state? why hasnt a public option been take up by a state?

$$$

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermont_health_care_reform

EDIT: Apparently Tennessee and Oregon offer "free" community college: http://www.governing.com/topics/education/oregon-to-offer-free-community-college.html

 

[Wilsongt]

OT is so ugly at times... Ew.

 

[Brawndo Addict]

When you're the one being a radical progressive you are subjected to higher standards. It's why people like Michelle Alexander are not enthused with Sanders because he projects a sense of anti-racism lite; they don't feel he is addressing racism with the gravity that it deserves, not that he doesn't acknowledge its existence. Pointing out the disparity in black/white statistics might be above and beyond a normal politician (an indictment of our current level of political discourse more than anything else), but Sanders isn't a normal politician so no surprise not everyone is impressed that he's hitting the layups.

 

[Elaugaufein]

why hasnt free college been taken up by any state? why hasnt a public option been take up by a state?

$$$

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermont_health_care_reform

States can't run deficits the way the Feds
can, its why large scale programs pretty much always involve Federal funds.

 

[Abinash117]

When you're the one being a radical progressive you are subjected to higher standards. It's why people like Michelle Alexander are not enthused with Sanders because he projects a sense of anti-racism lite; they don't feel he is addressing racism with the gravity that it deserves, not that he doesn't acknowledge its existence. Pointing out the disparity in black/white statistics might be above and beyond a normal politician (an indictment of our current level of political discourse more than anything else), but Sanders isn't a normal politician so no surprise not everyone is impressed that he's hitting the layups.

That isn't new what-so-ever some Republicans say stuff similar like Rick Perry and Rand Paul, and stuff like that has been repeated for a for a long time.

There is literally a guy in the forum we we were talking about that asks him a question and begins with saying certain socialist policies were racist and led to high black unemployment, and Bernie responds saying he was right. This is basically a fiction you're holding onto however clumsily Bernie deals with it.

From what I know at least from observations in Europe a lot of immigrates and sometimes minorities don't do well. Is there more evidence that socialist policies don't help out minorities are is racist?.