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PoliGAF 2016 |OT| Ask us about our performance with Latinos in Nevada

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A

And_Gignac

Member
Cesare Borgia said:
So because Sanders has promised the moon on various issues, like most politicians, he must support every "radical" left wing economic over-the-moon policy as well? That's not how this works.
Click to expand...

His response to it is exactly the same response Clinton has for healthcare for all, college free, etc... . He can be against reparations, but not for a reason that also makes his other positions not so feasible.
 
E

East Lake

Member
kirblar said:
No, it means that arguing practicality as a rationale for not supporting a policy is not an acceptable response, because that rationale would invalidate most of his other positions as well.

"Practicality" isn't stopping him from promising to release 90% of prisoners.... so what's actually stopping him from supporting this position?

And it seems to circle back to "it's class, not race."
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The prisoners thing was a dumb comment, but outside that basically everything he campaigns on has wide public support, but not necessarily wide political support. That means he will go after the banks and he does support government health care, it also means he doesn't support reparations or massive land transfers back to native americans. For a thread that's allegedly literate politically this should be obvious.
 
J

Jay-Hova

Banned
Macho Madness said:
Bernie's: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZ8G-akE7H8&feature=youtu.be

So far I'm just seeing snark on the MLK thing. But what do I know.
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God I hate this MLK thing.
Bernie literally rarely ever mentions his civil right's activities, one of the only times I've seen is on an old mlk video from 2012 on his channel, and when he does mention it he doesn't big it up whatsoever, but because of his supporters it's blown up into this big thing and is being used to attack him.
Edit:Oh he seem to be playing it up now, but he wasn't when the flack was really getting thrown at him for that
 
A

And_Gignac

Member
Makai said:
Bernie's not in favor of reparations because it would shatter the coalition he wants to build.
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Would you say that he is trying to re-create a socialist coalition led by class like in european countries with less difficult racial histories in their own territories?

A purely class coalition needs a post racial society (if such society can even really exists). The US is not quite there. And Europe is not closer than the US. Socialist coalitions crumble when you introduce foreign people who can also benefit from them (hence locals running towards fascism).
 
M

Macho Madness

Member
Jay-Hova said:
God I hate this MLK thing.
Bernie literally rarely ever mentions his civil right's activities, one of the only times I've seen is on an old mlk video from 2012 on his channel, and when he does mention it he doesn't big it up whatsoever, but because of his supporters it's blown up into this big thing and is being used to attack him.
Click to expand...

...

Did you watch the video?
 
M

Makai

Member
Melkr_ said:
Would you say that he is trying to re-create a socialist coalition led by class like in european countries with less difficult racial histories in their own territories?

A purely class coalition needs a post racial society. The US is not quite there. And Europe is not closer than the US. Socialist coalitions crumble when you introduce foreign people who can also benefit from them (hence locals running towards fascism).
Click to expand...
There's clearly some overlap between Bernie and Trump supporters. I think he's trying to get those people plus everyone that's already firmly in the Democrat camp.
 
K

kirblar

Member
East Lake said:
The prisoners thing was a dumb comment, but outside that basically everything he campaigns on has wide public support, but not necessarily wide political support. That means he will go after the banks and he does support government health care, it also means he doesn't support reparations or massive land transfers back to native americans. For a thread that's allegedly literate politically this should be obvious.
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You're arguing that he's not supporting the proposal because it's not popular.

That may be. But that's not his stated reason for not supporting it.
 
G

gutter_trash

Banned
Makai said:
There's clearly some overlap between Bernie and Trump supporters. I think he's trying to get those people plus everyone that's already firmly in the Democrat camp.
Click to expand...

Trump should name Sanders as his Veep. Call their team: The Outsiders

outsiders.jpg
 
E

East Lake

Member
kirblar said:
You're arguing that he's not supporting the proposal because it's not popular.

That may be. But that's not his stated reason for not supporting it.
Click to expand...
Yeah well, he's a politician. Maybe one a bit more morally engaged than others but he's still one in the end. He's not going to be 100% forthright and like everybody else in that position he is generally bound by where the support lies.
 
P

Poodlestrike

Banned
Cesare Borgia said:
Hold on, so he can't use practicality for anything then, correct?
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Honestly? Yeah. Once you go "free college tuition, dramatically reduced prison pop, single payer healthcare are totally politically viable" (plus a bunch of other things), the "I just can't get it through congress" thing rings pretty false.
 
Y

Y2Kev

TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
Wouldn't the political revolution be able to accomplish it? Unless the political revolution didn't want to.
 
H

Holmes

Member
I also used to listen to TYT, a few years ago when I was in university, and I would prefer their entertainment/non-political segments more than their political ones. But yeah, now it's just a bit much. When they're not worshipping Sanders, they're criticizing Clinton for even uttering his name. It's a bit much.

And they were among the first to hop off the Obama train after he became President, so I'm sure all of Sanders' criticism of him is just music to their ears.
 
E

eBay Huckster

Member
Holmes said:
I heard this last night going to sleep because my husband listens to TYT every night when I go to bed. They're really mad that the Clinton campaign is insinuating that Sanders is a one issue candidate and their whining made me laugh.
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it's funny because this attack is almost singlehandedly making me want to unfollow political Twitter because literally no one on the Sanders side gets it

e: just as an example, the replies to this tweet by Liz Kreutz of ABC
 
H

Holmes

Member
eBay Huckster said:
it's funny because this attack is almost singlehandedly making me want to unfollow political Twitter because literally no one on the Sanders side gets it
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Remember, when you're on the defensive, you're losing. And only one candidate and his supporters are on the defensive right now.

e: just as an example, the replies to this tweet by Liz Kreutz of ABC
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She said this in the last 2 minutes of this GOTC rally and it was really good messaging. I think she's found it.
https://www.facebook.com/HillaryforNV/videos/vb.771631249620617/952534361530304/?type=2&theater
 
A

And_Gignac

Member
Macho Madness said:
This sounds sarcastic. If I've misrepresented something in the past, I apologize.
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Dont you think that line of attack against Sanders is a misrepresentation of what he is actually saying? It oversimplifies his message. The Clinton camp seems to think this is one line of attack that can actually stick, but I am not that convinced.
 
E

East Lake

Member
It's more a jab at the thread which itself has turned into an echo chamber that repeats misrepresentations without much thought. I don't have the context of the Hillary quote but it's factually incorrect that Bernie has colorblind policies and it's constantly repeated here ad-nauseum.
 
H

Holmes

Member
East Lake said:
It's more a jab at the thread which itself has turned into an echo chamber that repeats misrepresentations without much thought. I don't have the context of the Hillary quote but it's factually incorrect that Bernie has colorblind policies and it's constantly repeated here ad-nauseum.
Click to expand...
I posted the video 5 posts up.
 
M

Macho Madness

Member
Melkr_ said:
Dont you think that line of attack against Sanders is a misrepresentation of what he is actually saying? It oversimplifies his message. The Clinton camp seems to think this is one line of attack that can actually stick, but I am not that convinced.
Click to expand...
I think it's been the most honest attack on Sanders so far. He has all of these issues handled on his website but he never makes them the forefront of his speeches and tends to bring things back to economics at debates. Of course it's oversimplification to say he does it ALL the time because he does talk about these issues sometimes. I get it, economics is what matters most to him. He's obviously very passionate about it. And so far, it has yet to be really hurting him so we'll see what happens going forward.
 
C

Captain Pants

Killed by a goddamned Dredgeling
SmokeMaxX said:
In his words, Sanders is against reparations because


Some would argue that almost all of his positions have essentially a nil likelihood of getting through Congress, so the fact that he's not pushing for reparations is essentially telling black communities that they're not worth fighting for. IMO, he should never admit to dismissing an idea because it's unlikely to succeed. That's counterproductive to his message. Inconsistencies like this will kill you in politics.
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Gotchaye said:
Clinton is basically running to be Obama's third term. She's selling herself as safe, pragmatic, competent, etc. She's the "knows what she's doing and can get things done" candidate. She's going to beat Sanders unless he can offer something new and appealing.

Sanders is running a much more emotional campaign. He's identifying Bad People who must be opposed. He's proposing radical change. His supporters are less concerned with policy details than they are with knowing that "he cares about people like them". It's important that he's perceived as honest and authentic. If he doesn't seem to care a lot about you and your problems, you're not likely to give him a second look. It's not about being sure that his policy prescriptions are really the right way to go; it's about believing that he's on your side.

Sanders is clearly very willing to signal that he's on the side of, say, young white people with lots of student debt. This is who he's aimed at. He's said a lot of things that "everyone knows" are stupid politics, so they trust him. He has not been similarly willing or enthusiastic about sticking his neck out on behalf of black people, among others. I suspect that his "cares about people like me" score is much lower among black people. And reparations is part of why - it's the sort of costly signal that a Sanders-like candidate would be sending to black people to prove that he's on their side. He's vulnerable on this in a way that Clinton isn't, even though they have the same (non)position, because his whole campaign is about sending these sorts of "I care" signals.
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Thanks guys, that's the assumption I had, but I wanted to be sure I wasn't missing something. I guess the concern I had is that if a significant portion of black voters got riled up about Bernie not being in favor of reparations, that they'd hold that against Hillary as well. But it makes sense the more I think about it. She isn't promising the kinds of things he is, so it makes sense that she wouldn't get called out for not running on reparations.
 
I

ivysaur12

Banned
Macho Madness said:
I think it's been the most honest attack on Sanders so far. He has all of these issues handled on his website but he never makes them the forefront of his speeches and tends to bring things back to economics at debates. Of course it's oversimplification to say he does it ALL the time because he does talk about these issues sometimes. I get it, economics is what matters most to him. He's obviously very passionate about it. And so far, it has yet to be really hurting him so we'll see what happens going forward.
Click to expand...

I agree, and it's probably going to be one of her most salient critiques. Her experience as a statesman has always bene her strength to a potential voter, and she's danced around trying to use that in a way that doesn't paint her as "the establishment".

It's the right critique for someone who circled back to talking about Wall St. when talking about race.
 
E

East Lake

Member
Holmes said:
I posted the video 5 posts up.
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Well I'll take Hillary's points at face value then. She asks if breaking up the big banks will lead to increased voter enfranchisement. The answer is no, and the implication being that Bernie thinks it will. It also happens to be a misrepresentation of Bernie's beliefs. Great messaging though.
 
E

eBay Huckster

Member
Melkr_ said:
Dont you think that line of attack against Sanders is a misrepresentation of what he is actually saying? It oversimplifies his message.
Click to expand...

I mean, when he constantly pivots to that broader message while being asked complicated questions about social problems that are not entirely economic, there doesn't seem to be much more simplification to be done.

We saw it when he was asked that question about profiling of Muslims after San Bernardino last month - how he gave a quick snippet of an answer before immediately pivoting to income inequality. We saw it the other night, when he directly pivoted to Wall Street to BEGIN an answer to a question about systemic racism.
 
A

And_Gignac

Member
eBay Huckster said:
I mean, when he constantly pivots to that broader message while being asked complicated questions about social problems that are not entirely economic, there doesn't seem to be much more simplification to be done.

We saw it when he was asked that question about profiling of Muslims after San Bernardino last month - how he gave a quick snippet of an answer before immediately pivoting to income inequality. We saw it the other night, when he directly pivoted to Wall Street to BEGIN an answer to a question about systemic racism.
Click to expand...

I agree his biggest problem right now is not having an actual message for racism that do not derives from Big Money or whatever that boogeyman is called.

But in everything else? Nope, his message is on point. Thats what happens when your political system derives into a plutocracy. The rich and therefore powerful have a lasting decision in every single problem. Wall Street is an octopus.



wowow what the fuck Scalia.
 
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