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PoliGAF 2016 |OT| Ask us about our performance with Latinos in Nevada

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ICKE

Banned
I'm getting super annoyed at my liberal friends constantly saying pragmatism is bad and that Obama might as well have made no progress at all since it wasn't enough. They're also saying Obama is a centrist that pulled the wool over our eyes in 08, and you might as well always vote ideological because a pragmatist will get railroaded anyway.

HELP ITS SO BAD

Maybe they need another 8 years of some absolute lunatic who is funded by a handful of billionaires. After repealing A.C.A, appointing devout conservative Christians to SCOTUS, cutting down social programs and halting the clock on various social issues; they can then come back to fold and try to repair all the damage in a few years before the cycle continues.

Besides:

-Both parties are the same
-Midterms are boring
-The president should just do stuff
-Obama/Hillary are weak and owned by Wall Street
 

ivysaur12

Banned
In the last hour, Sam Wang tweeted skepticism about millennial attitudes towards the candidates for the general.

http://m.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2016/02/it-turns-out-millennials-hillary-clinton-just-fine

blog_millennials_2016_election.jpg


(For what it's worth)

lol 69

(I am 11)
 
It will be interesting if Obama's approval ratings hold up. In my lifetime I've never seen a popular term-limited President who actively campaigns for his successor. Slick Willy was plagued by scandal and W was a disaster. Bush Sr. never got there.

He will certainly get the base hyped for Hilldawg.
 

Captain Pants

Killed by a goddamned Dredgeling
I'm getting super annoyed at my liberal friends constantly saying pragmatism is bad and that Obama might as well have made no progress at all since it wasn't enough. They're also saying Obama is a centrist that pulled the wool over our eyes in 08, and you might as well always vote ideological because a pragmatist will get railroaded anyway.

HELP ITS SO BAD

It's definitely getting pretty bad. In my, admittedly limited, time paying attention to elections, this is the first time I've seen a candidate in my party that is getting the kind of fanaticism that a Ron Paul, or a Ralph Nader would get. I don't necessarily blame Bernie for it, but his supporters remind me exactly of Ron Paul's. It's weird when a candidate's supporters taint my feelings on a candidate.

I had a friend on Facebook the other day ranting about how Hillary's campaign manager is in the pocket of Monsanto, and that she'd be forced to push some heavy GMO agenda. It's getting to be a bit too much for me.
 

Bowdz

Member
Compromise is politics and politics is compromise. Not everyone will hold the same view as you do, but it is the job of a politician to form a coalition that is able to enact as much of your view as possible. To form said coalition there will inevitably be a dilution of principle, but it is a good thing. If you divide up the legislative victories that have had a meaningful impact into those that stayed from ideological purity in favor of compromise and those that were ideologically pure, the former greatly outnumbers the latter.
 
I'm getting super annoyed at my liberal friends constantly saying pragmatism is bad and that Obama might as well have made no progress at all since it wasn't enough. They're also saying Obama is a centrist that pulled the wool over our eyes in 08, and you might as well always vote ideological because a pragmatist will get railroaded anyway.

HELP ITS SO BAD

Did you say that he had to do it or otherwise little to no "progressive policies" would had not been passed and what they expect Obama to do win his party doesn't have control of neither the House nor Senate?

SC is an open primary but the electorate is vastly different than NH which is 95% white and 40% Independents participate. SC primary will have an electorate 55% Black. Bernie would run up the margins with Independents and young but be swamped by Hillary's hold on the black vote and running slightly ahead with whites.

it would be the same scenario in open southern primaries like AL, GA, MS etc but more substantial in black participation and less liberal whites.

I don't think she will have trouble with white liberals or white voters that vote in the dem primaries . She won half the number of people in the one of the most liberal and mostly racial white states.
 
Why do you think there's a trend like that in the republican party?

I think it's more prevalent among republicans because, on the social conservatism front, they're constantly swimming against the current of progress. Social conservatism is built around winning battles but losing wars, and eventually people who see this happen often enough decide not to concede, but to stage their last stand at the alamo. That they're still failing in a lot of ways (not likely to win in 2016, for instance) is infuriating to their base.

I think democrats are less inclined to attract ideologues because the tide of public sentiment tends to sway in their favor over time, thereby abating some of the need for extreme measures. For democrats, their rallying cry since 2008 has been that progress is happening too slowly. For republicans, it's that progress (their idea of it) isn't happening at all. In a republican's mind, they see that we live in a country where women can serve in combat roles in the military, gay people can get married, we're practicing diplomacy with Iran rather than bombing them, health insurers can't discriminate against those with pre-existing conditions, etc and see a country that has been completely overhauled by liberal ideology, even if it only feels like incremental steps toward ideal solutions for most of us.
 

NeoXChaos

Member
It will be interesting if Obama's approval ratings hold up. In my lifetime I've never seen a popular term-limited President who actively campaigns for his successor. Slick Willy was plagued by scandal and W was a disaster. Bush Sr. never got there.

He will certainly get the base hyped for Hilldawg.

Reagan campaigned for H W but that's been the only time a President lived to see his party successor take over since the 20's.

Kennedy and FDR died so their VP's took their place. Their nominee successors(Stevenson and Humphrey)lost. Carter never made it to a second term and Gore lost.
 

damisa

Member
Can someone explain to me how Bernie is going to bring about his revolution but is not raising any money for down ballot Democrats who need the help in state and local races across the nation? You'd think due to the Socialism stigma he would be MORE proactive in trying to limit losses in close races where it WILL be a factor. And anything he wants to pass will need Democratic votes in Congress.

Is it really?:
Step 1) Vote Sanders
Step 2) ???
Step 3) Revolution and we're now Denmark

Also, this increasingly louder purity contest is really off putting me with Bernie and his campaign. Which is sad because I support a lot of his positions, but pragmatic progression works and Revolution does not.

I've found examples of Democrats helping Bernie, such as Obama himself:
"in 2006, a young and healthy looking future President Obama headed to Vermont to headline a rally for then-Rep. Bernie Sanders. Bernie, then an independent congressmen running for Senate, was thrilled to have then Senator Obama in his camp. "

I haven't found a single example of Bernie returning the favor and helping a Democrat.
 

Gruco

Banned
I've found examples of Democrats helping Bernie, such as Obama himself:
"in 2006, a young and healthy looking future President Obama headed to Vermont to headline a rally for then-Rep. Bernie Sanders. Bernie, then an independent congressmen running for Senate, was thrilled to have then Senator Obama in his camp. "

I haven't found a single example of Bernie returning the favor and helping a Democrat.

Well, Bernie isn't an establishment sellout. That type of thing would just get in the way of the revolution.
 

NeoXChaos

Member
Did you say that he had to do it or otherwise little to no "progressive policies" would had not been passed and what they expect Obama to do win his party doesn't have control of neither the House nor Senate?



I don't think she will have trouble with white liberals or white voters that vote in the dem primaries . She won half the number of people in the one of the most liberal and mostly racial white states.

I found exit polls for each state for the 08 primary. Here is NH, NV and SC

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/primaries/results/state/#val=NH
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/primaries/results/state/#NV
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/primaries/results/state/#val=SC
 

OmniOne

Member
Well, Bernie isn't an establishment sellout. That type of thing would just get in the way of the revolution.

This is a problem. How can you graft off a President very popular among Democrats when it benefits you, and then turn around and support him being primaried because he governed within the realities of the Congress, Courts etc, and then you want the Nomination of a party you never cared to be a part of.
 

East Lake

Member
I think it's more prevalent among republicans because, on the social conservatism front, they're constantly swimming against the current of progress. Social conservatism is built around winning battles but losing wars, and eventually people who see this happen often enough decide not to concede, but to stage their last stand at the alamo. That they're still failing in a lot of ways (not likely to win in 2016, for instance) is infuriating to their base.

I think democrats are less inclined to attract ideologues because the tide of public sentiment tends to sway in their favor over time, thereby abating some of the need for extreme measures. For democrats, their rallying cry since 2008 has been that progress is happening too slowly. For republicans, it's that progress (their idea of it) isn't happening at all. In a republican's mind, they see that we live in a country where women can serve in combat roles in the military, gay people can get married, we're practicing diplomacy with Iran rather than bombing them, health insurers can't discriminate against those with pre-existing conditions, etc and see a country that has been completely overhauled by liberal ideology, even if it only feels like incremental steps toward ideal solutions for most of us.
I think you could reverse a lot of those observations and not notice a difference. For instance, have democrats won the war on unionization or income inequality? Probably not, and in that sense they'd be accustomed to losing.

I think what's missing is that these people are encouraged by wealthy conservatives who likely have no real moral interest in what the base does, but want candidates who throw a few scraps to social conservatives and then get to their real agenda, which is tax cuts and deregulation.
 
Can someone explain to me how Bernie is going to bring about his revolution but is not raising any money for down ballot Democrats who need the help in state and local races across the nation? You'd think due to the Socialism stigma he would be MORE proactive in trying to limit losses in close races where it WILL be a factor. And anything he wants to pass will need Democratic votes in Congress.

Is it really?:
Step 1) Vote Sanders
Step 2) ???
Step 3) Revolution and we're now Denmark

Also, this increasingly louder purity contest is really off putting me with Bernie and his campaign. Which is sad because I support a lot of his positions, but pragmatic progression works and Revolution does not.

Also, I detest how the Sanders campaign is handling (very legitimate) concerns about his plan for funding single payer. He's overly optimistic in his projections- when solid literature is released which demonstrates that his numbers are completely unrealistic and would lead to a trillion dollar plus shortfall, what's the Sanders camp response?

Hint: its not a well though rebuttal to the methodology of the researchers

It's ad hominems and digging up the fact that a researcher got funding 1x in their life. All style, no substance seems to be the essence of the Sanders campaign.
 

HylianTom

Banned
A lot of older Democrats also probably remember being throttled repeatedly at the polls over the course of a few decades, and are thus more willing to accept (perceived) low-risk incremental change instead of (perceived) high-risk high-reward change.

For younger Dems, their formative years overlapped with a period where the Dems romped in two elections. The electoral margins were gaudy, obscuring the fact that a few points' swing could've drastically altered these races. It makes me wonder if folks realize how difficult it can be to win.
 

OmniOne

Member
I think a lot of voters agree with Hillary's approach on healthcare (didn't exit polling in IA show she did?).

It makes a lot more sense to drop in Public Option into the ACA framework as a trojan horse if there is support in Congress if Dems do well downballot. Trying to pass a whole new framework is untenable. We all watched the sausage making in Congress for the ACA it was awful but we still got a framework for universal coverage. There is no way we can go thru that again. You think a private insurance market reform bill was contentious? Wait until Republicans campaign against a government takeover of healthcare and and it be a true claim.
 
So, this is going to be a sort of rambling post that I am writing mostly to explore my own thoughts on the matter. Watching the Bernie/Hillary fight is incredibly surreal to see, and I'm still not entirely sure how to react to it. I really don't want Bernie to become president. Not in a "I appreciate the sentiment, but the supreme court is too important to take risks on" sense. I don't think he'd be good at it. He's too one-dimensional, and seems mostly indifferent to any number of issues. And he's too ideological to get into the weeds of crafting good policy.

...

This describes my concerns about Sanders' campaign. Sanders has admirable ideals, and ideals are great, but to govern ultimately you have to be able to write coherent policy. The GOP at the federal level has consistently demonstrated an inability to do this because their campaign promises are divorced from the reality of what can be accomplished in a divided government. So instead they have given us a series of ideological stunts (see: debt ceiling games, sequestration, the shutdown, 40+ PPACA show votes, multiple Benghazi! hearings, Planned Parenthood, etc) in place of actual governance. Sanders' most revolutionary policy proposals are no more likely than Ted Cruz's to be enacted within a single presidents' term. I don't want to see the same Tea Party dynamic reproduced on the left, when it turns out that President Sanders isn't actually able to move us over to a single payer system with the stroke of a pen.
 

kirblar

Member
It will be interesting if Obama's approval ratings hold up. In my lifetime I've never seen a popular term-limited President who actively campaigns for his successor. Slick Willy was plagued by scandal and W was a disaster. Bush Sr. never got there.

He will certainly get the base hyped for Hilldawg.
He's got the highest approval ratings floor of any recent president.
 
I think you could reverse a lot of those observations and not notice a difference. For instance, have democrats won the war on unionization or income inequality? Probably not, and in that sense they'd be accustomed to losing.

I think what's missing is that these people are encouraged by wealthy conservatives who likely have no real moral interest in what the base does, but want candidates who throw a few scraps to social conservatives and then get to their real agenda, which is tax cuts and deregulation.

Right, hence Bernie Sanders. The scope of democratic failures over time has been more narrow, in my opinion, which is why I think Bernie Sanders is limited to Bernie Sanders while there's an entire faction of the republican party that identifies as the "tea party."


A lot of older Democrats also probably remember being throttled repeatedly at the polls over the course of a few decades, and are thus more willing to accept (perceived) low-risk incremental change instead of (perceived) high-risk high-reward change.

For younger Dems, their formative years overlapped with a period where the Dems romped in two elections. The electoral margins were gaudy, obscuring the fact that a few points' swing could've drastically altered these races. It makes me wonder if folks realize how difficult it can be to win.

Just curious, what do you mean by "perceived"? I don't think Hillary as a low-risk incremental change candidate and Bernie as a high-risk high-reward candidate glazes over some deeper truth about their propositions.
 

HylianTom

Banned
Just curious, what do you mean by "perceived"? I don't think Hillary as a low-risk incremental change candidate and Bernie as a high-risk high-reward candidate glazes over some deeper truth about their propositions.

I put that in as a nod to the idea that one voter's idea of a "safer" candidate might not be the same as another voter's.
 

Holmes

Member
Caucuses area a fucking mess. Full stop. The Colorado and North Dakota causes on the GOP side will be fucking messes this year too, bank on it.
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs

So because of

Dr. Andy McGuire, chairwoman of the Iowa Democratic Party, dug in her heels and said no. She said the three campaigns had representatives in a room in the hours after the caucuses and went over the discrepancies.

McGuire knows what’s at stake. Her actions only confirm the suspicions, wild as they might be, of Sanders supporters. Their candidate, after all, is opposed by the party establishment — and wasn’t even a Democrat a few months ago.

Really? Sanders supporters are salty and we should placate them. Just because people are jumping on the conspiracy train doesn't mean we should indulge them. I say this, knowing if the results were on the other foot I would feel the exact same way.

Unless they decide to switch to a primary system the whole thing is always going to be a clusterfuck.
 

East Lake

Member
Right, hence Bernie Sanders. The scope of democratic failures over time has been more narrow, in my opinion, which is why I think Bernie Sanders is limited to Bernie Sanders while there's an entire faction of the republican party that identifies as the "tea party."
Okay but keep in mind the discussion was about how tribalism and irrationality are drivers of these issues. What we're talking about now is beyond that and includes potential sources, which I think makes makes the concern over tribalism by itself look fairly shallow.
 

Plinko

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
Caucuses area a fucking mess. Full stop. The Colorado and North Dakota causes on the GOP side will be fucking messes this year too, bank on it.

There is absolutely zero reason for caucuses to continue as they are. It's a complete joke.

Get some computers in there.
 
In my lifetime I've never seen a popular term-limited President who actively campaigns for his successor. Slick Willy was plagued by scandal and W was a disaster. Bush Sr. never got there.

Reagan campaigned for H W but that's been the only time a President lived to see his party successor take over since the 20's.

Reagan's support for HW Bush was not what you would call "unrestrained".

http://www.nytimes.com/1988/05/12/us/reagan-endorses-bush-as-successor.html

Many of the Republicans at the dinner here tonight expressed surprise that Mr. Reagan had not delivered a longer or more effusive endorsement of his Vice President. In fact, the endorsement consisted of only one paragraph, in which Mr. Reagan mispronounced the Vice President's name, saying it as if it rhymed with ''rush.''
 
DMR are just covering their asses. Easier to blame the Iowa Democratic Party for the problems on caucus night than acknowledge the Iowa caucuses are a moronic undemocratic process that should be axed.
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
DMR are just covering their asses. Easier to blame the Iowa Democratic Party for the problems on caucus night than acknowledge the Iowa caucuses are a moronic undemocratic process that should be axed.

Pretty much. The only way to fix what they see as an issue is to nix the caucuses and go with a bog standard primary, but then they wouldn't be first and you know they won't abide that.

The whole thing is stupid and people are just being sore losers.
 

noshten

Member
So because of



Really? Sanders supporters are salty and we should placate them. Just because people are jumping on the conspiracy train doesn't mean we should indulge them. I say this, knowing if the results were on the other foot I would feel the exact same way.

Unless they decide to switch to a primary system the whole thing is always going to be a clusterfuck.

I though DMR endorsed Hills, you guys have such a victim complex it's unreal lol
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
I though DMR endorsed Hills, you guys have such a victim complex it's unreal lol

Did you even read the editorial? All of their issues are with the caucus system specifically and because the Sanders supporters and camp are salty. If they didn't want a clusterfuck they shouldn't have had a caucus.
 

danm999

Member
Elections in America in general need an overhaul. Caucus are dumb, voter registration should be easier, the Electoral College is archaic, Election Day should be a holiday, first past the post sucks, Congressional districts should not be drawn by partisan state houses, etc etc etc
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
Elections in America in general need an overhaul. Caucus are dumb, voter registration should be easier, the Electoral College is archaic, Election Day should be a holiday, first past the post sucks, Congressional districts should my be drawn by partisan state houses, etc etc etc

You aren't going to hear me disagree with any of that.
 
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