• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

PoliGAF 2016 |OT| Ask us about our performance with Latinos in Nevada

Status
Not open for further replies.

danm999

Member
I think it takes some significant blinders to think the sum total of Clinton's argument in favour of her eligibility as a leader in relation to her identity as a woman is because of her sexual reproductive organs.

She rather frequently talks about the battles she's fought for equal pay and opportunities for women, for women's health care, for abortion, for infant and parental care home and abroad, etc.

I don't think Jane Elliot comes off all that well for being so reductive in her assessment of Clinton's argument, nor does Killer Mike come off particularly well there choosing to repeat it.

Gosh I'll be glad when this primary is over though.
 
It's not going to be Trump vs. Sanders, though that would be absolutely incredible in every respect. I'm quite positive Bernie would beat him, especially if there's also a Supreme Court seat on the line, but the debates would be the most GIFfable events in history.
 
Trump, easily. It'd be no contest. The image difference alone is worth five points probably.

Yep, Bernie would get frazzled going against the Trump and never recover. That's not even taking into account the socialism and raise taxes smear campaign that will flood the airwaves.

CamU1ldW8AAKH5M.jpg

What's she doing there with her not favorite son?
 
Yep, Bernie would get frazzled going against the Trump and never recover. That's not even taking into account the socialism and raise taxes smear campaign that will flood the airwaves.

If the options are higher taxes or Donald Trump as the leader of the free world, I think most people will swallow their pride.

EDIT: Not to mention is there any clearer example of Sanders message of too much money in politics than a fucking Billionaire who self-funded his campaign? He basically is buying the presidency at that point...
 

benjipwns

Banned
Guys, Trump's favorables were complete shit in the GOP a few months ago. He's not even spending money!

A rich and famous businessman with years of media training, an unstoppable, good god they're unfairly beautiful coming from someone who looks like him, family (as long as they accidentally drop Eric out of the frame), who has been so vague and contradictory he can immediately line up himself as moderate on nearly every issue except immigration, Ted Cruz's birthplace and anything positive about Jeb Bush against the real Bernie fucking Sanders who likes being described as "disheveled"?
 

Teggy

Member
I still can't decide whether I think Trump or Sanders would win in a general election face off. I think it's the most interesting possible match up in any event.

This matchup is supposed to trigger The Bloomberg Protocol, so it's not like you'd be able to see a 1v1 anyway.
 
Guys, Trump's favorables were complete shit in the GOP a few months ago. He's not even spending money!

A rich and famous businessman with years of media training, an unstoppable, good god they're unfairly beautiful coming from someone who looks like him, family (as long as they accidentally drop Eric out of the frame), who has been so vague and contradictory he can immediately line up himself as moderate on nearly every issue except immigration and Ted Cruz's birthplace against the real Bernie fucking Sanders who likes being described as "disheveled"?

Here's the problem with this analysis:

-Trump turned his image around with the GOP by showing that he's a huge fucking racist who hates people of color and the GOP has a lot of racists (70% of Trump's voters in SC want the Confederate flag flying over the capitol ffs).

-The fact that Trump is a huge fucking racist is not good in an election where 30% of the voters are nonwhite.

What do you expect Trump to use to turn around his image among independents and Democrats? Like how he used "They're rapists" to turn around his image among Republicans.

... And Trump's favorables still kind of suck with Republicans. He's at 50/40 right now (compared to like 80/15 for Hillary and Bernie among Democrats).
 
Yep, Bernie would get frazzled going against the Trump and never recover. That's not even taking into account the socialism and raise taxes smear campaign that will flood the airwaves.

Where does this idea that Bernie would get frazzled come from? He's held his own against Clinton and she's a great debater. Trump has yet to show any ability to debate well outside of his response to Cruz's "New York values" gaffe.
 
If the options are higher taxes or Donald Trump as the leader of the free world, I think most people will swallow their pride.

EDIT: Not to mention is there any clearer example of Sanders message of too much money in politics than a fucking Billionaire who self-funded his campaign? He basically is buying the presidency at that point...

Trump is bringing new voters to the table and also bringing in moderates and independents. The revolution that Bernie loves to talk about is happening. It's just happening for Trump.
 

kirblar

Member
Someone could beat Trump if they coalesced all the other votes, imo.

But the fractured field full of awful candidates has made that impossible.
 
Someone could beat Trump if they coalesced all the other votes, imo.

But the fractured field full of awful candidates has made that impossible.

I think the speradoc movement of the recent polls (everyone below trump) is a sign of these. They are freaking out and trying to figure out who to coalesce around.
 

benjipwns

Banned
Here's the problem with this analysis:

-Trump turned his image around with the GOP by showing that he's a huge fucking racist who hates people of color and the GOP has a lot of racists (70% of Trump's voters in SC want the Confederate flag flying over the capitol ffs).

-The fact that Trump is a huge fucking racist is not good in an election where 30% of the voters are nonwhite.

What do you expect Trump to use to turn around his image among independents and Democrats? Like how he used "They're rapists" to turn around his image among Republicans.

... And Trump's favorables still kind of suck with Republicans. He's at 50/40 right now (compared to like 80/15 for Hillary and Bernie among Democrats).
You're talking about old news. Sanders won't even have time to bring it up for the general election electorate. Who won't be listening to him ever anyway except for when Trump abuses him for three straight debates.

Where does this idea that Bernie would get frazzled come from? He's held his own against Clinton and she's a great debater. Trump has yet to show any ability to debate well outside of his response to Cruz's "New York values" gaffe.
Which is perfect, Sanders is boooorrrrrinnng and so fucking negative about everything. Trump is fun, the American people want fun. You guys are all just convincing me more that'd it be Trump in a landslide.
 
You're talking about old news. Sanders won't even have time to bring it up for the general election electorate. Who won't be listening to him ever anyway except for when Trump abuses him for three straight debates.

I'm not sure "look at this Jew over here" is really going to be viewed positively by the media though.

The optics of a white supremacist using Jew slurs in a debate are kind of poor.
 
I think it takes some significant blinders to think the sum total of Clinton's argument in favour of her eligibility as a leader in relation to her identity as a woman is because of her sexual reproductive organs.

She rather frequently talks about the battles she's fought for equal pay and opportunities for women, for women's health care, for abortion, for infant and parental care home and abroad, etc.

I don't think Jane Elliot comes off all that well for being so reductive in her assessment of Clinton's argument, nor does Killer Mike come off particularly well there choosing to repeat it.

Gosh I'll be glad when this primary is over though.

Clinton is hardly special in her advocacy, though, is the main point. There are many people that have fought for the things she's fought for, but those things, either in isolation or in relation to gender, are not presidential qualifications in and of themselves. She had a pretty average 7-year tenure as a Senator and an unremarkable to bad tenure as Secretary of State in which her main accomplishment was implementing progressive departmental policies for LGBT people. That's not nothing, but she would not have remotely the national political profile and notoriety she has had she not been First Lady. She, herself, has foregrounded her sex in her campaign, advertising it as a prominent feature of why she should be voted for, so pointing out that her sex is not a qualification if she is lacking in other areas (which Killer Mike took the time to list, if you actually look at the full context of the speech) is totally fair game.

Edit: Note that Bernie is pretty lacking, too, so I'm not saying this because I'm a Bernie stan. Nevertheless, it's not unfair nor out of bounds for primary candidates to try and undercut each others' advertised advantages.
 

danm999

Member
Someone could beat Trump if they coalesced all the other votes, imo.

But the fractured field full of awful candidates has made that impossible.

If Jeb had a fraction of his brother's charisma it wouldn't be an issue yeah. Or if Marco had anything rattling around in his head.

Then again it took Romney a long time to defeat a field that was itself pretty anemic.
 
You're talking about old news. Sanders won't even have time to bring it up for the general election electorate. Who won't be listening to him ever anyway except for when Trump abuses him for three straight debates.


Which is perfect, Sanders is boooorrrrrinnng and so fucking negative about everything. Trump is fun, the American people want fun. You guys are all just convincing me more that'd it be Trump in a landslide.

Trump is pretty negative too though.
 

benjipwns

Banned
I'm not sure "look at this Jew over here" is really going to be viewed positively by the media though.

The optics of a white supremacist using Jew slurs in a debate are kind of poor.
You're going to have an infinitely harder time convincing voters that Trump is a white supremacist who hates Jews than you are convincing them that Bernie Sanders is an old socialist.

Trump is pretty negative too though.
About losers like Jeb Bush. Not about winners like banks. MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN!
 
"America has gone to shit and we're the New Yorker to save it."-Trump/Bernie 2016.

Co-starring Michael Bloomberg.

I think that will end up splitting the racist vote Trump has right now though.
 
You're going to have an infinitely harder time convincing voters that Trump is a white supremacist who hates Jews than you are convincing them that Bernie Sanders is an old socialist.


About losers like Jeb Bush. Not about winners like banks. MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN!

I have seen the light thank you benji
 

danm999

Member
Clinton is hardly special in her advocacy, though, is the main point. There are many people that have fought for the things she's fought for, but those things, either in isolation or in relation to gender, are not presidential qualifications in and of themselves. She had a pretty average 7-year tenure as a Senator and an unremarkable to bad tenure as Secretary of State in which her main accomplishment was implementing progressive departmental policies for LGBT people. That's not nothing, but she would not have remotely the national political profile and notoriety she has had she not been First Lady. She, herself, has foregrounded her sex in her campaign, advertising it as a prominent feature of why she should be voted for, so pointing out that her sex is not a qualification if she is lacking in other areas (which Killer Mike took the time to list, if you actually look at the full context of the speech) is totally fair game.

To use a popular phrase, it's fair to say Clinton isn't the gatekeeper on women's rights, or that it's the sole requirement of a President to represent something like race or gender.

But an argument like that is the difference between creating context and being reductive with that fucking awful line about a uterus.

It's a terrible line and I don't know what Killer Mike was thinking.
 
Trump is bringing new voters to the table and also bringing in moderates and independents. The revolution that Bernie loves to talk about is happening. It's just happening for Trump.

How do you figure that when Trump and Cruz's vote totals combined are about 20,000 short of Bernie's in New Hampshire?

Mind you, I don't think either candidate is actually inspiring a "revolution", but your argument is hard to swallow when Trump got 51,000 fewer votes than Bernie in the only state for which we have vote totals in both parties.
 
Anyone running against Trump is probably getting 55-60% of the vote. It could be the Ghost of Ted Kennedy on the ticket or "Computer Simulation of George McGovern" and probably still edge out a win in a GE. Trump is doing well in primaries because he's an egotistical loudmouth from the private sector. Among the general population he's that rich asshole from The Apprentice who hates Mexicans. That is not a candidate that wins elections. His favorables are hilariously bad for a front runner. You could literally list Bernie opposite him on a ticket as part of the Socialist Party and I'm pretty sure people would vote for him just to avoid Trump in office.

People expecting Trump to result in another 1964 are way too optimistic. The state of the country aside, the Demcrats have two low ceiling candidates that won't be able to produce such results.
 

Ecotic

Member
What do you expect Trump to use to turn around his image among independents and Democrats? Like how he used "They're rapists" to turn around his image among Republicans.

I could see Trump completely changing characters and becoming a populist economic warrior for all Americans who have been left behind by globalization. He just switches emphasis to talking 90% of the time about China, Mexico, and Japan and how we're getting taken by these countries.

I'm not saying it's probable or that he would be successful if he tried, but when I envision general election scenarios that could be one of them. Maybe that's been his plan all along, play one character to hijack the Republican nomination and then play another character for the general. He has to know his current act is a sure loser in the general election.
 
I could see Trump completely changing characters and becoming a populist economic warrior for all Americans who have been left behind by globalization. He just switches emphasis to talking 90% of the time about China, Mexico, and Japan and how we're getting taken by these countries.

I'm not saying it's probable or that he would be successful if he tried, but when I envision general election scenarios that could be one of them. Maybe that's been his plan all along, play one character to hijack the Republican nomination and then play another character for the general. He has to know his current act is a sure loser in the general election.

Really gonna be hard to do that unless he massively changes his horrible tax plan.
 
How do you figure that when Trump and Cruz's vote totals combined are about 20,000 short of Bernie's in New Hampshire?

Mind you, I don't think either candidate is actually inspiring a "revolution", but your argument is hard to swallow when Trump got 51,000 fewer votes than Bernie in the only state for which we have vote totals in both parties.

Republican party had like 8 people in the race though vs 2 on Democratic side. Republican turnout was higher than Democratic turnout and many were new voters or independents coming out to support Trump.
 

benjipwns

Banned
I could see Trump completely changing characters and becoming a populist economic warrior for all Americans who have been left behind by globalization. He just switches emphasis to talking 90% of the time about China, Mexico, and Japan and how we're getting taken by these countries.

I'm not saying it's probable or that he would be successful if he tried, but when I envision general election scenarios that could be one of them. Maybe that's been his plan all along, play one character to hijack the Republican nomination and then play another character for the general. He has to know his current act is a sure loser in the general election.
Trump has five issue sections on his webpage and they're all vague as fuck. He turns every answer back towards the same stuff or attacks his opponents, even on things he agrees with. He dismisses anything he can't weasel out of it and lets the reporters call him on it later after nobody is paying attention.

Sanders can't compete with an opponent like that with the campaign he's shown, Hillary's an entire different beast than Trump. Rigid, too afraid, Washington-speak, etc.

Really gonna be hard to do that unless he massively changes his horrible tax plan.
Already done.

Because nobody knows what his current tax plan even is or that it exists except super tuned in politicos.
 
Trump has five issue sections on his webpage and they're all vague as fuck. He turns every answer back towards the same stuff or attacks his opponents, even on things he agrees with. He dismisses anything he can't weasel out of it and lets the reporters call him on it later after nobody is paying attention.

Sanders can't compete with an opponent like that with the campaign he's shown, Hillary's an entire different beast than Trump. Rigid, too afraid, Washington-speak, etc.

Hillary Clinton is too strong in her beliefs to change like Donald Trump; Hillary 2016.

lol
 
Republican party had like 8 people in the race though vs 2 on Democratic side. Republican turnout was higher than Democratic turnout and many were new voters or independents coming out to support Trump.

The entirety of the "outsider" vote (Trump/Cruz/Carson) on the republican side is less than Sanders' total. I just don't see any evidence that either candidate is inspiring a revolution.
 
To use a popular phrase, it's fair to say Clinton isn't the gatekeeper on women's rights, or that it's the sole requirement of a President to represent something like race or gender.

But an argument like that is the difference between creating context and being reductive with that fucking awful line about a uterus.

It's a terrible line and I don't know what Killer Mike was thinking.

Being reductive is in the very nature of popular politics. I'd argue Clinton is being just as reductive, not to mention incredibly cynical, in the way she's using her sex as a selling point for her campaign, and that that's probably why she is not catching on with young women. Heck, my mother is only seven years younger than Clinton and finds her use of her gender incredibly distasteful.
 

Yoda

Member
Trump's negatives make Hillary's look good.

People overrate Trump's negatives, any of the favorites to win the nomination fights (Clinton, Bush, etc...) who have lots of name recognition won't be able to sway voters away from solidified opinions one may hold about them (this is currently sinking Jeb's campaign). Trump is still relatively new to the political scene. His favorables are still upside down, but the margin has shrunk drastically since he entered the race. The less candidates he has to combat from the right, the sooner his "positions" will start reflecting whoever he needs to sell himself too. (Mexican rapists won't be getting mentioned during the general outside of TV ads).

I think most voters aren't oblivious to the fact he's a bit of a snake oil-salesman. The anti-establishment sentiment is so potent this cycle that there is very little his opposition can do to lower his support, because ANYTHING they say by default comes across as shilling for the elites, and to an extent that's true more often that most care to admit.

Really gonna be hard to do that unless he massively changes his horrible tax plan.

Tax plan? The crap that was tossed together in an evening that's on his website? He'll change it whenever he pleases to whatever he pleases and no one will be able to use it against him.

Yeah, but Bernie is raising your taxes to give free college and medicare for immigrants.

See? Not that hard.

Hiliary has said she's raising taxes on the rich... so that attack, minus the free college part, is 100% fair game against her.
 

benjipwns

Banned
Kaus' greatest influence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feiler_Faster_Thesis

http://www.kausfiles.com/archive/index.02.24.00.html
'Momentum' ain't what it used to be.


Posted Thursday, February 24, 2000

My friend Bruce Feiler had a thought that he said I could steal. It's this:

Everybody says competition, plus the Internet, has speeded up the news cycle. You used to watch the evening news once a day, or watch Meet the Press once a week. Now you look at Salon and complain that they've had the same article up for an hour and a half. In this environment, charges and countercharges fly faster. The conventional wisdom forms, and contrarian pundits react against it, and counter-contrarians weigh in, etc., all in a day, instead of over the course of a fortnight. Call this speeding up of the news cycle Trend 1.

People have also noted that the primary schedule is front-loaded and very compressed this year, with more than a dozen important primaries crammed into the month and a half between the Iowa caucuses and the big delegate payday on March 7. Call this campaign compression Trend 2. Generally, it has been a cause for lament--by underdog, low-budget candidates worrying they won't have time to get their messages out, or (lately) by establishment candidates worried they might be victims of an impetuous crush briefly entertained by the electorate but later regretted. Once a candidate gets momentum, the argument goes, he or she can't be stopped until it's too late.

Feiler's point is that we should put these two trends together--and that when we do, Trend 1 considerably softens the impact of Trend 2. We have a speeded up primary calendar, but we have a speeded up news cycle to match it--a news cycle that lets voters get the information they need to make their decisions in time to avoid the superficial rush to judgment that critics of the compressed primary schedule fear.

In particular, the concept underlying the rush-to-judgment fear--the old idea of "momentum"--obviously needs to be reassessed. After New Hampshire, commentators wondered how McCain's momentum could be stopped. (After all, he was on the cover of all the newsweeklies. Remember what that did for Gary Hart!) Well, McCain got a New Hampshire bounce, but it didn't last nearly long enough. He was beaten, rather decisively, two weeks later in South Carolina.

Then Bush had the momentum, which would surely sweep him to victory in Michigan's primary just three days later! Wrong again. Bush's Big Mo (and the impact of McCain's bitter, Nixonian concession) lasted about 24 hours, which was about 36 short of what Bush needed. In part that's because the speeded-up news cycle let McCain counter Bush's momentum (by using Bush's Bob Jones University appearance to rile Catholics) with record speed.

In short, political trends that used to last for weeks now last for hours. It's like watching the 1984 campaign on fast forward, except that the calendar still drags on into early June, meaning there's room for plot twists we could only dream of in 1984. To be commensurate with the speeded-up news cycle, the calendar would probably have to be compressed even more. Maybe we could have had the whole thing wrapped up by St. Patrick's Day!

Of course, voters may not entirely be keeping pace with Trends 1 and 2. Are they really as well-informed and conscientious as before--swooning, having second thoughts, rebelling, coming "back home," and so forth, just as they used to, only more rapidly? Can you keep dividing time into smaller and smaller bits without bumping up against the limitations of the human brain?

I would read James Gleick's book Faster and come up with some conclusions on that question. But I've got to get this up on the Web quickly before somebody beats me.
To this I'd add that Trend 3, narratives aren't what they used to be. Witness "Trump is finally over" and "Rubio is finally here" along with the rise and fall pattern shown in the last two primaries.
 
Trump has five issue sections on his webpage and they're all vague as fuck. He turns every answer back towards the same stuff or attacks his opponents, even on things he agrees with. He dismisses anything he can't weasel out of it and lets the reporters call him on it later after nobody is paying attention.

Sanders can't compete with an opponent like that with the campaign he's shown, Hillary's an entire different beast than Trump. Rigid, too afraid, Washington-speak, etc.

I think the race will be markedly different depending on if it's Hillary vs. Trump or Bernie vs. Trump.

In a Hillary v Trump race, there are a lot of parallels to Jeb and Trump re: establishment vs outsider, big money vs populism, etc. Of course, Hillary isn't a fuckboi like Jeb so she'll fare a lot better than he has.

In a Bernie v Trump race, the obvious dichotomy is socialism vs capitalism, but there are a lot of directions I think the story of the race could be framed around.
 

benjipwns

Banned
In a Bernie v Trump race, the obvious dichotomy is socialism vs capitalism, but there are a lot of directions I think the story of the race could be framed around.
The obvious one is that Sanders is a loser who hates America because he never got his communist revolution while TRUMP, EMBODIED SON OF AMERICA, WANTS TO MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN!
 

Wall

Member
Sanders does much better against Trump in the head to head polls than Clinton does. I know people don't think those have value now - and I'm about 50/50 on whether I agree that they don't - but there still are reasons to think Sanders might make a better general election candidate against Trump especially given the current economic and political climate. I am not the only person who thinks this, either.
 

danm999

Member
Being reductive is in the very nature of popular politics. I'd argue Clinton is being just as reductive, not to mention incredibly cynical, in the way she's using her sex, as a selling point for her campaign, and that that's probably why she is not catching on with young women.

If being reductive is the nature of politics the President who got elected because he was black is likely to be succeeded by the President who will ban Muslims and build a big wall, having beaten either the woman or the dishelved man who wants to raise your taxes.

But I don't think it is and I don't think it's a very honest place to argue from.
 
If being reductive is the nature of politics the President who got elected because he was black is likely to be succeeded by the President who will ban Muslims and build a big wall, having beaten either the woman or the dishelved man who wants to raise your taxes.

But I don't think it is and I don't think it's a very honest place to argue from.

What are you even talking about? Obama got elected because he was a great campaigner and because he managed to couch an essentially centrist political platform in progressive-sounding phrases like "Hope", "Change", and "Yes We Can". Obama's campaign was reduction employed with surgical precision toward a good cause. There's nothing to be ashamed of in that.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom