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PoliGAF 2016 |OT| Ask us about our performance with Latinos in Nevada

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The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Their campaign is actively promoting the numbers in fundraising material. Let's dispel with this fiction that he's some no-name guy. The fundraising team knew exactly what it was doing.

Cbhufz8W8AAYVY1.png

...does that really say "Paid for by Bernie (not the billionaires)"?
 
I'm arguing it because it doesn't seem out of the question that it's a bad poll. If there is evidence that pollers are throwing out polls like this left and right, I guess that's something else.

BTW, just for giggles, I calculated Cruz's mean on this poll including all polls during this month. His score on this poll is 2.45 standard deviations above the mean for polls since 2/1. Assuming a normal distribution (although granted, I don't know enough about voting science to say you can), that would be a .7% chance of getting this result (or greater).

But remember there's a LV and RV poll, too.

And even a 1% number isn't proof against. Look, if I run 10,000 polls, I'm going to get some super funky polls in there, right? If I ran 10k polls and got this WSJ result, you wouldn't even think to question it. You would say it's a normal outlier. But because we only have like 15 polls in the last month, it looks super out of place, which is why you assume it's bad. Considering the reputation of the pollster, it's likely it's just an outlier. Outliers don't mean just on the edge of 2 standard deviations. They can be more than that and often will be.

To declare something not an outlier, I think you have to demonstrate within the crosstabs that something funky is going on. Too many old people assumed or too many white people or not enough catholics. Whatever it is. Like in 2012 when I said Gallup was oversampling the South which was skewing their results GOP.

The number itself isn't enough of an argument. We don't know how much herding other pollsters do. Or how many perceived outliers they never release.

Obviously, the WSJ poll looks to be at least an outlier. But to argue it's bad methodology can't be made based on the numbers alone. If I ran 10k perfectly fine polls, 1 of them will get Trump at 20 or so. It's the nature of the beast.

edit: FWIW, the PPP poll looks waaaay more suspect than this one.

And I really don't see the point of arguing this. If you want to argue it's a stupid poll, make the case in the cross-tabs and fine. If not, then it's just likely to be an outlier and move on. Who cares? Outliers are are not uncommon.
 
Why does this thread seem to have a very obvious favorite... Can't we wait for the inevitable Bernie response before calling him out on his total war of the political system :p
 

Yoda

Member
Finance reform doesn't really stop a bakery from refusing to sell a wedding cake to two lesbians.

Because Bernie isn't in favor of pro LBGT legislation right? Hillary only came around to the idea of LBGT equality a few years ago, she campaigned on civil unions in 08, as it wasn't very popular.
 

CCS

Banned
Why does this thread seem to have a very obvious favorite... Can't we wait for the inevitable Bernie response before calling him out on his total war of the political system :p

Socialists don't get a chance to defend themselves. It's in the constitution somewhere :p
 
It does in the sense that most people dont want that but the issue is used as a wedge by the republicans. If congress better represented us (theres a good article on how it doesnt really represent anyone but the wealthy), this wouldn't be as much of a problem. I'll give you straight raw bigotry isn't really accounted for by finance reform, but it does indirectly via congress simply not representing the american people well.
In an abstract tenuous sense I can probably tie anything to anything. But it's really not particularly instructive. Gerrymandering and voting rights restrictions impact the nature of Federal representation, and well-funded state level campaigns have enabled the capture of local positions, and these have enabled policies designed to retain and expand the incumbent influence, coupled with ineptitude and apathy at the local level by the other party. These were things that were happening before Citizens United. They'll happen even if it's overturned. They'll happen with reduced contribution limits.

And further the baseline sentiment will remain there to capture. It would still be a problem. And it's really the mentality that it wouldn't be much of a problem that is probably off-putting. People who face these issues in addition to the problems that everyone else does, don't really want to hear that their issues are really just the same as everyone else's. They don't want to hear that the solution is really the same. Because it fundamentally isn't.

Also, I'm hoping you're not talking about the fantastical liberal silent majority that don't vote.
 

Teggy

Member
But remember there's a LV and RV poll, too.

The number itself isn't enough of an argument. We don't know how much herding other pollsters do. Or how many perceived outliers they never release.

Obviously, the WSJ poll looks to be at least an outlier. But to argue it's bad methodology can't be made based on the numbers alone. If I ran 10k perfectly fine polls, 1 of them will get Trump at 20 or so. It's the nature of the beast.

edit: FWIW, the PPP poll looks waaaay more suspect than this one.

And I really don't see the point of arguing this. If you want to argue it's a stupid poll, make the case in the cross-tabs and fine. If not, then it's just likely to be an outlier and move on. Who cares? Outliers are are not uncommon.

Well, but that cuts both ways. All that's been said is "this is an outlier" and the only evidence given were some debatable probabilities. No one mentioned that the cross tabs look great or something similar. Really all I was reacting to was this immediate dismissal of the poll as an outlier with what seemed like outright resistance to view it any other way. I don't mean to come off as combative, I just was trying to push back at this idea that there is no chance that it's a bad poll.
 
One thing I will say, is that Bernie is caught between a rock and a hard place when it comes to South Carolina. He has to run the ads and put in the lip service. It's not wasting money, although it will net him bullshit in a Prada bag, but it's absolutely necessary for optics reasoning. At the very least, he'll be able to say "I tried."

Hillary's probably not running many ads in the state because that would be a waste of money. So, out spending her 3-1 is not a huge issue, although it makes for a good fund raising email that gets my blood pressure up every time I get it.

Because Bernie isn't in favor of pro LBGT legislation right? Hillary only came around to the idea of LBGT equality a few years ago, she campaigned on civil unions in 08, as it wasn't very popular.

Because gay marriage is the only thing that affects my community. Come on now. Hillary's been in the LGBT corner for quite a while, even before her evolution on SSM. Obama campaigned on Civil unions as well. Bernie was in favor of them before he evolved, albeit earlier than Hillary and Obama.

And the bus necessary to fit everyone not feeling the Bern is huge. It's a millionaire or billionaire size bus. But, I've managed to organize a rave under the back wheel. All you have to do is say Yaaassss queen and you'll be comp'd two drinks by the cute bartender. (Sorry straights, I have nothing for you.)
 

CCS

Banned
One thing I will say, is that Bernie is caught between a rock and a hard place when it comes to South Carolina. He has to run the ads and put in the lip service. It's not wasting money, although it will net him bullshit in a Prada bag, but it's absolutely necessary for optics reasoning. At the very least, he'll be able to say "I tried."

Hillary's probably not running many ads in the state because that would be a waste of money. So, out spending her 3-1 is not a huge issue, although it makes for a good fund raising email that gets my blood pressure up every time I get it.



Because gay marriage is the only thing that affects my community. Come on now. Hillary's been in the LGBT corner for quite a while, even before her evolution on SSM. Obama campaigned on Civil unions as well. Bernie was in favor of them before he evolved, albeit earlier than Hillary and Obama.

And the bus necessary to fit everyone not feeling the Bern is huge. It's a millionaire or billionaire size bus. But, I've managed to organize a rave under the back wheel. All you have to do is say Yaaassss queen and you'll be comp'd two drinks by the cute bartender. (Sorry straights, I have nothing for you.)

I like the sound of this rave. Is this the new spiritual home of the Secret Gay Agenda To Destroy America?
 
Well, but that cuts both ways. All that's been said is "this is an outlier" and the only evidence given were some debatable probabilities. No one mentioned that the cross tabs look great or something similar. Really all I was reacting to was this immediate dismissal of the poll as an outlier with what seemed like outright resistance to view it any other way. I don't mean to come off as combative, I just was trying to push back at this idea that there is no chance that it's a bad poll.

I think the default should be to assume a poll is an outlier rather than discredit it completely. People, generally, are working really hard to get this right and it's a very difficult thing to pull off.

And in this forum, people often dismiss any poll that doesn't conform to their beliefs as a poor poll and that's annoying because it generally means they don't understand that the best pollsters have to have outliers.
 

Teggy

Member
I always thought that Hillary tying herself to the president was to appeal to people who like the president. Which is, you know, more than just black people.
 
In an abstract tenuous sense I can probably tie anything to anything. But it's really not particularly instructive. Gerrymandering and voting rights restrictions impact the nature of Federal representation, and well-funded state level campaigns have enabled the capture of local positions, and these have enabled policies designed to retain and expand the incumbent influence, coupled with ineptitude and apathy at the local level by the other party. These were things that were happening before Citizens United. They'll happen even if it's overturned. They'll happen with reduced contribution limits.

And further the baseline sentiment will remain there to capture. It would still be a problem. And it's really the mentality that it wouldn't be much of a problem that is probably off-putting. People who face these issues in addition to the problems that everyone else does, don't really want to hear that their issues are really just the same as everyone else's. They don't want to hear that the solution is really the same. Because it fundamentally isn't.

Also, I'm hoping you're not talking about the fantastical liberal silent majority that don't vote.

I guess I see it as more broad changes to fix campaign finances as well as shitty electoral quirks. I do not think there is a fantastic liberal silent majority (maybe the millenials :p). I agree with your second paragraph but then why is there no outreach to Appalachia by Hillary (i may have missed it so please correct me). There are unique problems with unique solutions. I guess its a bit chicken and the egg, how do you enact change through congress as it exists today without some change in the election process.

Here is the article I was talking about http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/15/government-wealthy-study_n_5154879.html
 

Teggy

Member
I think the default should be to assume a poll is an outlier rather than discredit it completely. People, generally, are working really hard to get this right and it's a very difficult thing to pull off.

And in this forum, people often dismiss any poll that doesn't conform to their beliefs as a poor poll and that's annoying because it generally means they don't understand that the best pollsters have to have outliers.

Understood, but just to clarify, my interest in the poll was purely in understanding if it was a good/bad poll. As a democrat, I'd actually rather Cruz won because I think he'll be easier to beat, so the results of the poll were encouraging to me, but honestly seemed way too good to be true.
 

HylianTom

Banned
Clyburn timing:
Save it for Monday. In the event that Nevada goes for Bernie, she's going to need to pull a Trump and dampen momentum. An event together would eat-up media coverage.
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
It is all sorts of amazing that hillary can't properly trounce a guy running a campaign this badly.

Part of it is because it's a two-person race, part of it is the mood of part of the electorate. All that said, if the numbers we have now hold steady the trouncing will begin soon.
 
They're being bombarded on the air by his ads and they're still rejecting him. @Melkr come get your boy

You put me in an awkward position. To discredit this SC poll I would have to dicredit Sanders new FRONT RUNNER status too. Mmmh, let me do some more mental gymnastics to come up with a solution.
 

Holmes

Member
You put me in an awkward position. To discredit this SC poll I would have to dicredit Sanders new FRONT RUNNER status too. Mmmh, let me do some more mental gymnastics to come up with a solution.
Don't think too hard, it'll all be over soon anyway.
 

User 406

Banned
John Kasich gives long hug to crying supporter. "We don't have enough people that sit down and cry with that young man."

http://cs.pn/1Ks6sdK

Most compassionate candidate award. This is also the guy who is the only one on the right that talks about incarceration rates and drug rehab.

kashich is a good man



How big is this bus? Lotta folks under it right now.

And the bus necessary to fit everyone not feeling the Bern is huge. It's a millionaire or billionaire size bus. But, I've managed to organize a rave under the back wheel. All you have to do is say Yaaassss queen and you'll be comp'd two drinks by the cute bartender. (Sorry straights, I have nothing for you.)

Cyclops.jpg


If you haven't seen The Big Bus, you totally have to.
 
Some people on my Facebook are reposting a story about how Hillary said "we could break up the banks but would that end racism/sexism?" The other day, Making jokes about it etc. saying "I could do my laundry but then I thought, it won't end racism so forget it lolololol"

And I just said "actually you know what's really funny? Bernie's polling numbers amongst Black people. Can't help but think posts like this are some of the reasons as to why"

It didn't go over well
 

Cybit

FGC Waterboy
It is all sorts of amazing that hillary can't properly trounce a guy running a campaign this badly.

Falls under the "I really think HRC supporters significantly overrate her ability to win elections" column.

Siren.gif

Senator Bernie Sanders, Democratic Primary Front Runner
Siren.gif


Fox News Poll
Sanders 47 (+10)
Clinton 44 (-5)


http://www.foxnews.com/politics/int...-national-presidential-race-february-18-2016/

<facepalm>

HOW THE HELL IS THIS EVEN A CLOSE RACE? How is she not beating the holy hell out of him?
 
Prepare the happening bunker.
I agree with your second paragraph but then why is there no outreach to Appalachia by Hillary (i may have missed it so please correct me). There are unique problems with unique solutions.
Something something coal country Jim Clyburn proposal during the PBS debate white people question. Google says she has some sort of probably non-starter $30B plan.
But then I don't know how well these states and their voters align with the modern Democratic party. I don't really think people tend to think of unique geographical problems when they speak of minority issues, which may be a problem in itself I guess. The latter tend to be more to do with basic civil inequalities.
 
Intersting note on the fox news poll, 75% of respondents believe either Hillary, Trump, or Sanders will be Pres.

Just 4% believe Rubio. Jeb! at 2%.

Also, on the SCOTUS:

The president shouldn’t get to nominate someone for a life-time appointment to the high court this late in his term. - 34%

It’s still the responsibility of current leaders, President Obama and the Senate, to take action to fill the vacancy now. - 62%

Yeah, that's not good for the GOP.
 
Prepare the happening bunker.

Something something coal country Jim Clyburn proposal during the PBS debate white people question. Google says she has some sort of probably non-starter $30B plan.
But then I don't know how well these states and their voters align with the modern Democratic party.

Yea its a pretty easy problem for both parties to dodge because they generally vote republican and so democrats dont get much benefit from advertising any specific outreaches. Didn't even realize there was a democratic townhall on tonight.

Its just one famous area with some big systemic problems that generally white people don't face. I am sure there are other similar groups but that was just the one I could think of. Trump probably appeals greatly to these people.
 
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