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PoliGAF 2016 |OT| Ask us about our performance with Latinos in Nevada

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No capital to spend? Fairly easy? Getting 38 states to pass anything is never like that.

Not on this issue, no, I don't believe it would have been that insanely difficult. There were only 4 states that had their entire Senate delegation vote against it (Hawaii, California, Mass, and Illinois.) Considering we were passing these state constitutional amendments by huge margins until the late 2000s, yes, I think it would have been fairly open and shut.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...al_amendments_banning_same-sex_unions_by_type

31 states had bans on same sex marriage passed by voters. Most of these were in the 2000s. Each of these states would be more likely than not to have supported a constitutional amendment in 1996 banning gay marriage.
 

pigeon

Banned
Why in the world did Nixon do Watergate when his opponent was almost certain to be George McGovern?

Nixon had a 60/30 approval rating at the time of the Watergate break-in and was probably going to go against one of the worst presidential candidates in the country's history. What was he thinking?

Nixon didn't do the stuff he did because of a rational reaction to polls or whatever.

Nixon believed fundamentally that everybody was like him and that the Watergate stuff was right in line with stuff that Democrats were doing. He thought that's just what politics was like. And of course he would think that since he was a politician and that's what he liked to do.

One of the characteristics of people like Nixon is that generally they think everybody thinks the way they do and they're just pretending to be normal and innocent.
 
It's not really the same thing, there's a difference between rationing and restricting. We have enough supply of housing/food for everyone but we restrict access. We don't have enough doctors for everyone to get care on demand though. There's only so many MRIs that can be done in a day.
Yeah, and people who die of cancer because they can't get access sure do care about those distinctions!

https://mobile.twitter.com/citizencohn/status/700514873264836608
 
Going to disagree. His response wasn't I "Don't agree with gay marriage, thus civil unions..." which was Hillary's position. It's a cop-out answer, first being "Vermont can't do that right now" and second being "it's a state issue" is a black-mark, but he still voted against DOMA, and advocated for LBGT rights when there was no political upside to do so.

I was going to say this.

It's important to remember that the reasoning behind a vote in congress is just as important as the vote itself. Also, not supporting a good thing isn't the same as supporting a bad thing.

If we're gonna compare where politicians stand on certain issues, we have to look at WHY they did or didn't support something, as it's the reasoning that reveals where they actually stand.

A congressman can vote against a bill that they actually would otherwise like to see get passed it it weren't for certain issues that they have with the bill. This is why you can't just look at votes in a vacuum.
 

A Human Becoming

More than a Member
They would have been able to do it after the ruling out of Hawaii. Public opinion was 68% against marriage in 1996. It would have been fairly easy to get 2/3s of the states on board.
The argument DOMA prevented a constitutional amendment defining marriage as between a man and a woman is flimsy:

Our review of congressional record and news coverage from 1996 found little public evidence that Democratic lawmakers decided to vote for DOMA because of a threat of a constitutional amendment. Among Democrats who defended their “yes” votes on the floor, many said they supported gay rights but they supported the bill to preserve states’ rights.

During a House Judiciary Committee hearing on DOMA, Rep. John Conyers (D-Mich.), who opposed the bill, criticized his colleagues for being quick to consider constitutional amendments. But there was no actual amendment proposed, or any other clear indication that if DOMA failed, opponents of same-sex marriage would push for an amendment to the U.S. Constitution.
Elizabeth Birch, former head of the Human Rights Campaign who fought against DOMA, said the actual threat of a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage came after President George W. Bush took office and vowed to reserve marriage for heterosexual unions. (Birch challenged Bill Clinton’s argument in 2013, and also wrote about Hillary Clinton’s comment on “The Rachel Maddow Show.”) This proposal, the Federal Marriage Amendment, was first introduced in Congress in 2002, then for several years after that.
Dick Morris, one-time adviser to President Clinton who helped devise Clinton’s triangulation plan for the 1996 reelection, rejected Hillary Clinton’s explanation: “There was never a discussion of a constitutional amendment about gay marriage. I was there for the meetings, spoke to both Hillary and the president about it and that idea never came up. In fact, I hadn’t thought of it until you raised it with me just now.” Morris is now an outspoken opponent of Hillary Clinton.

Barney Frank says there was a potential threat, but I don't take what Barney Frank says as face value anymore.
 

Jenov

Member
https://twitter.com/HillaryClinton/status/700528718066819072

7c13e48afc598c67fa03a82e8d976bd4.gif

Reverse bern, ow
 
The argument DOMA prevented a constitutional amendment defining marriage as between a man and a woman is flimsy:





Barney Frank says there was a potential threat, but I don't take what Barney Frank says as face value anymore.

I have issues with some of what Barney Frank says too. I've also read that article as well. I still stand behind the idea that a veto'd DOMA would have led to far worse repercussions. President Clinton said that in an interview once, I think. I could be making it up, don't quote me on that.

However, my point still stands. Bernie championing voting against DOMA for state's rights reasons is about as impressive as him championing marching with Dr. King. He may have done the right thing, but it wasn't because he was a huge champion for LGBT issues. Because he simply hasn't been. He's been on the right side of the issues when the votes come up, but I don't see him as proactive, but more reactive. And that's fine. It's just not in his storehouse of issues. We all know where he's good, and we all know where he's not so good. This is more of a middle of the road issue for me with him.

He's good enough, but Hillary is, to me at least, better.
 
So did Bernie get trashed this debate? I just started watching the replay and he's coming out of the gate angry when Todd asks him if he would still primary Obama lol
 

Jay-Hova

Banned
Here's Bernie's LGBT policy positions on LGBT issues.

https://berniesanders.com/issues/fighting-for-lgbt-equality/

Seven points. His 2nd point is basically telling gay people we'll get universal healthcare like everyone else. Item 3 is continuing part of the plan that Hillary Clinton started at State! His mention of trans issues is in passing and shows a lack of understanding on the complexity of the issues transgender individuals actually face.

And here's Hillary's:

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/briefing/factsheets/2015/12/17/fighting-for-full-equality/

To call these comparable is laughable. Bernie is free to go into more details, but Hillary's is a well presented argument over the issues that my community face. She acknowledges how we have an aging gay population that is being left behind due to institutional homophobia. She discusses trans issues at depth. She talks about ending trans bans in the military, about reclassifying LGBT service members who were dishonorably discharged. She focuses on HIV/AIDS issues. It is more comprehensive, and shows a better understanding of the complexity of being queer in this country.

Also, for the record, I didn't say he'd be worse. However, I see Hillary as an advocate and Bernie as an ally. I don't trust Bernie to not throw queer issues under the bus if it furthers his economic ones. I'm sorry, I just don't. He's shown an unwillingness to engage with racial issues outside economic ones, and I have seen nothing to suggest that he would do more (or as much) as Hillary would.

When Bernie has an incredibly solid voting record lgbt issues, started a gay pride parade in his town (which they loved him for, I think I read a letter from an lgbt member of the community that talked about how great it was for progress), and has voiced support for LGBT people over the last few decades even when it wasn't popular which by proxy will open more people up to accepting lgbt people, it seems absurd in my mind to say he isn't an advocate just because of how much focus he put's on economics, especially when Hilary (someone who I've always believed has a strong record on lgbt rights besides marriage equality which is why I don't harp on it like other Bernie supporters do) has a history of doing what's politically expedient and "practical" even if it throws things under the bus.
Isn't that supposed to be one of her appeals?

Of course i'm not LGBT so I don't have a full picture of what being an "advocate" entails, but from the outside looking in it seems that both of these imperfect candidates has a strong record on it and that it would be insulting to say he isn't an advocate for lgbt rights, i'd at least imagine someone would say not as good of an advocate rather than not an advocate at all.
And on racial issues Bernie is stronger than Clinton from my perspective as a black man (something I don't believe gives me much credibility, just clarifying because of the perspective some people take towards Bernie supporters).

He didn't call us predators to be brought to a heel, take money from the private prison industry, or in my opinion support general bad policies that hurt all Americans which means minorities got the worst of it while Bernie has been on the right side of 99% of it since he was in college, he also supports Marijuana decriminalization which she keeps tip toeing around and I believe she doesn't stress the role of economics/campaign finance reform in race nearly enough.
One comment on reparations being divisive (which I believe is true), won't change that for me, especially when it would be literally suicide to support it and would probably cause more problems in the long run.

I'm sure you could find a better issue that he backed down on to attack his credibility as an advocate rather than that.
Of course this is just my opinion.
 
I was just told on Twitter that the only reason I don't find Obama inspiring is because "Every president before him looked exactly like you." (I'm white, male, and straight).

So...all white straight guys look the same.

I'm really debating voting for Trump now. I mean, if it's going to be assumed that all my motivations for voting are due to my white-male-straightness, then fuck it. I get blowback for voting for everyone's interests, identity-wise, because I'm not a minority identity.

I'm a white, straight, male! Donald Trump might make my situation a lot better! I mean...brown people, black people, and gay people might have it rough, but what the fuck do I care? Shit, they're all making their choices in the South based on their black identity. Why don't I make mine based on mine?

"How I Learned To Stop Worrying and Love Identity Politics"
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
I was just told on Twitter that the only reason I don't find Obama inspiring is because "Every president before him looked exactly like you." (I'm white, male, and straight).

So...all white straight guys look the same.

I'm really debating voting for Trump now. I mean, if it's going to be assumed that all my motivations for voting are due to my white-male-straightness, then fuck it. I get blowback for voting for everyone's interests, identity-wise, because I'm not a minority identity.

I'm a white, straight, male! Donald Trump might make my situation a lot better! I mean...brown people, black people, and gay people might have it rough, but what the fuck do I care? Shit, they're all making their choices in the South based on their black identity. Why don't I make mine based on mine?

"How I Learned To Stop Worrying and Love Identity Politics"
I expect better than this sort of pettiness from you honestly
 
Nixon didn't do the stuff he did because of a rational reaction to polls or whatever.

Nixon believed fundamentally that everybody was like him and that the Watergate stuff was right in line with stuff that Democrats were doing. He thought that's just what politics was like. And of course he would think that since he was a politician and that's what he liked to do.

One of the characteristics of people like Nixon is that generally they think everybody thinks the way they do and they're just pretending to be normal and innocent.

"You see, when the chips are down, these civilized people-They'll eat each other."

So Nixon=Joker from The Dark Knight?
 
Glad to have you back

"look like you" means that they are white and male. It doesn't meant that white people look the same.

The fact that you are white might be a real reason that Obama wasn't inspiring to you. Don't discount that.
She said 'exactly like you'. I'm assuming that she knows what words mean. Are you saying I should patronize her by assuming she meant something other than what she said? Because I've heard that women don't like being patronized by people who look 'exactly like me'.
 
I was just told on Twitter that the only reason I don't find Obama inspiring is because "Every president before him looked exactly like you." (I'm white, male, and straight).

So...all white straight guys look the same.

I'm really debating voting for Trump now. I mean, if it's going to be assumed that all my motivations for voting are due to my white-male-straightness, then fuck it. I get blowback for voting for everyone's interests, identity-wise, because I'm not a minority identity.

I'm a white, straight, male! Donald Trump might make my situation a lot better! I mean...brown people, black people, and gay people might have it rough, but what the fuck do I care? Shit, they're all making their choices in the South based on their black identity. Why don't I make mine based on mine?

"How I Learned To Stop Worrying and Love Identity Politics"
Smh
I'm a straight white male. Everything I've read about us is that we're not capable of rising above pettiness. I've gotta fit in, yo!
If you actually gave a shit you wouldn't make posts like these.
 
She said 'exactly like you'. I'm assuming that she knows what words mean. Are you saying I should patronize her by assuming she meant something other than what she said? Because I've heard that women don't like being patronized by people who look 'exactly like me'.
There's a difference between the phrase "all of the past presidents look exactly like you" in the context of identity politics and the phrase "all you white men look the same to me." If you can't distinguish the two, then you are oblivious and it is no wonder that you have resorted to hyperbole and faux exasperation.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
I'm a straight white male. Everything I've read about us is that we're not capable of rising above pettiness. I've gotta fit in, yo!

I'm also a straight white dude. I've never had to face systemic....anything, basically, in my life, any real unfair barriers keeping me from pursuing my desires or living my life the way I want to. So when a member of a marginalized group tells me that maybe I don't get it I have to step back and maybe realize that I don't get it
 

Cybit

FGC Waterboy
Not on this issue, no, I don't believe it would have been that insanely difficult. There were only 4 states that had their entire Senate delegation vote against it (Hawaii, California, Mass, and Illinois.) Considering we were passing these state constitutional amendments by huge margins until the late 2000s, yes, I think it would have been fairly open and shut.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_...al_amendments_banning_same-sex_unions_by_type

31 states had bans on same sex marriage passed by voters. Most of these were in the 2000s. Each of these states would be more likely than not to have supported a constitutional amendment in 1996 banning gay marriage.

The....inexperience and youth of a lot of the folks here fighting is making me feel old, and I'm not that old damnit. That amendment would have passed in a heartbeat. People keep thinking the 90s are the late 2000s in terms of partisanship and polarity. They weren't.

I really don't now much about Dick Morris.

Don't. Just try not to learn unless you're super interested in history and self-flagellation.

I was just told on Twitter that the only reason I don't find Obama inspiring is because "Every president before him looked exactly like you." (I'm white, male, and straight).

So...all white straight guys look the same.

I'm really debating voting for Trump now. I mean, if it's going to be assumed that all my motivations for voting are due to my white-male-straightness, then fuck it. I get blowback for voting for everyone's interests, identity-wise, because I'm not a minority identity.

I'm a white, straight, male! Donald Trump might make my situation a lot better! I mean...brown people, black people, and gay people might have it rough, but what the fuck do I care? Shit, they're all making their choices in the South based on their black identity. Why don't I make mine based on mine?

"How I Learned To Stop Worrying and Love Identity Politics"

You mean identity politics trying to guilt people might actually backfire horrifically on the democrats at some point? YOU DON'T SAY.

(Every Catholic Guilt kid or Asian kid is nodding along)

She said 'exactly like you'. I'm assuming that she knows what words mean. Are you saying I should patronize her by assuming she meant something other than what she said? Because I've heard that women don't like being patronized by people who look 'exactly like me'.

BTW, even though disaster is being sarcastic (i hope), non-sarcastic versions of this are how Trump beats Clinton, by the way. The Dems are spouting off their demographic advantages about one presidential election too early, and they're one Trump / Rubio nomination from having their asses handed to them if they don't tone it the hell down and start remembering that groups aren't freaking monoliths, and that Americans are Americans.
 
Smh

If you actually gave a shit you wouldn't make posts like these.
I tried giving a shit. I've been treated like that doesn't matter, see...because of my straight-white-maleness.

I can't change the whiteness. I'm not interested in changing the maleness. My sexual orientation seems pretty fixed too.

All I can really change is not giving a flying fuck about the rest of you! Or continue to get spit on. Maybe 41 years is long enough of that.

Hell, I might buy a gun!
 
I tried giving a shit. I've been treated like that doesn't matter, see...because of my straight-white-maleness.

I can't change the whiteness. I'm not interested in changing the maleness. My sexual orientation seems pretty fixed too.

All I can really change is not giving a flying fuck about the rest of you! Or continue to get spit on. Maybe 41 years is long enough of that.

Hell, I might buy a gun!

I'm sorry you feel so oppressed that non-straight white males disagree with your political opinions.
 
Its completely rational to have a political meltdown because some person gave you shit on twitter.
No, no...it's not one person reducing me to my race/gender/sexual orientation - it's countless people reducing me to my race/gender/sexuality. This isn't even close to being the first time this has happened.

Also, again, I'm a straight white male. We're already considered irrational...so no huge damage there.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
I mean...are you really serious right now? What set you off was someone commenting about how maybe you didn't find Obama inspiring because you couldn't personally identify with and take pride in the idea of a black man achieving the highest office in the nation, the way that many black people did because for centuries such positions have been denied to them and every minor victory for representation has been hard fought?
 

kirblar

Member
No, no...it's not one person reducing me to my race/gender/sexual orientation - it's countless people reducing me to my race/gender/sexuality. This isn't even close to being the first time this has happened.

Also, again, I'm a straight white male. We're already considered irrational...so no huge damage there.
At some point, you have to realize that the world is full of morons.

The Carlin line '"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.' holds true.

Many people are completely incapable of understanding context. It literally does not exist for them, because their brain can't separate things out of the world of black and white.
 
That's okay! You're supposed to dislike me now! But I'll be voting against you!

Thanks for helping me find the right team!

Hey, if you want to vote with the assholes simply because women and people of color can talk about politics and issues of race and gender without being filtered by the straight white male dominated media, have at it.
 
When Bernie has an incredibly solid voting record lgbt issues, started a gay pride parade in his town (which they loved him for, I think I read a letter from an lgbt member of the community that talked about how great it was for progress), and has voiced support for LGBT people over the last few decades even when it wasn't popular which by proxy will open more people up to accepting lgbt people, it seems absurd in my mind to say he isn't an advocate just because of how much focus he put's on economics, especially when Hilary (someone who I've always believed has a strong record on lgbt rights besides marriage equality which is why I don't harp on it like other Bernie supporters do) has a history of doing what's politically expedient and "practical" even if it throws things under the bus.
Isn't that supposed to be one of her appeals?

Of course i'm not LGBT so I don't have a full picture of what being an "advocate" entails, but from the outside looking in it seems that both of these imperfect candidates has a strong record on it and that it would be insulting to say he isn't an advocate for lgbt rights, i'd at least imagine someone would say not as good of an advocate rather than not an advocate at all.
And on racial issues Bernie is stronger than Clinton from my perspective as a black man (something I don't believe gives me much credibility, just clarifying because of the perspective some people take towards Bernie supporters).

He didn't call us predators to be brought to a heel, take money from the private prison industry, or in my opinion support general bad policies that hurt all Americans which means minorities got the worst of it while Bernie has been on the right side of 99% of it since he was in college, he also supports Marijuana decriminalization which she keeps tip toeing around and I believe she doesn't stress the role of economics/campaign finance reform in race nearly enough.
One comment on reparations being divisive (which I believe is true), won't change that for me, especially when it would be literally suicide to support it and would probably cause more problems in the long run.

I'm sure you could find a better issue that he backed down on to attack his credibility as an advocate rather than that.
Of course this is just my opinion.

I'm more than happy to engage on this with you, and to see if I can clarify my opinions on the situation as I feel it pertains to me.

I have never knocked Bernie's record on LGBT issues. His votes have been "right." Where I, and others, have issue is mischaracterizing his votes. He voted against DOMA because he said it was a state's right issue, not because he was in favor of marriage equality. There is a difference there, and to pretend that one position equates the other is just not accurate. Bernie was for civil unions until 2006. His voting record is absolutely fine. Therefore, there is no need to make it out to be something that it wasn't. FYI, Hillary was the first First Lady to ever march in a pride parade, and she's said she wants to be the first President to do so as well.

However, I have not seen specific policies that have been put forward by Bernie in his 30 year career that would indicate he is willing to proactively take up issues that are important to my community. I can look at Hillary's time at State, for example, and point out several ways she advocated for LGBT issues. There is a reason groups like HRC support her over Bernie, and it's not because we're all corporate shrills.

Several of the other issues you bring up are important to me as well, and I respect that we approach them from a different angle. As a CIS-white male, I simply do not have the same references a person of color has on specific issues. To that same end, it may be more difficult for a hetero-normative person to understand the way in which I perceive certain issues that affect my community. To me, Hillary has shown a better understanding of the ways in which sexism and homophobia are intertwined. (I actually believe that most homophobia is, in fact, sexism, but that's another argument all together.) She has shown, through policy positions and even simple remarks on things like trans violence, that she truly gets it. I do not get that same vibe from Bernie. He has not proven to me that he actually understands intersectionality at all, let alone how it would impact a trans woman of color, for instance.

And, again, feeling that Bernie Sanders is not the best choice is not attacking his credibility. He would be fine on LGBT issues, I'm sure. I think Hillary would be better. Of course, I'm not a single issue voter, and LGBT issues is just a part of my overall rationale for who I elect to support.
 

noshten

Member
Trump continues to evolve, right now he is at dung beetle larva stage, when he eats enough crap in the Republican field - he gonna turn into a beautiful butterfly that promises unicorns rainbows. Since this is what Sanders supporters are susceptible to - well at least the large majority of his supporters which scientific polling have found to be a bunch of entitled, young, sexist, white males or BernieBros as they are otherwise known. As this very sizable chunk of bros cast their votes Trump, his final evolution form will be revealed. He will spread his wings and fly into the sunset giving free stuff to all and building walls across America - making America great again.

Amen
 
I mean...are you really serious right now? What set you off was someone commenting about how maybe you didn't find Obama inspiring was because you couldn't personally identify with and take pride in the idea of a black man achieving the highest office in the nation?
That's not what she said, though. She said, and I quote, "Maybe that's because every president before him looked exactly like you."

Exactly. Like. Me.

To the left, I will always just be a straight white male and my opinion can be completely disregarded due to that trifold fact!

Well shit, I have no voice in that group! Any deviation from dogma is reduced to my straight white maleness, and frankly, due to the terms of engagement, and the persistence of my straightness, my whiteness, and my maleness, my voice is unlikely to ever really be heard on the left.

On the right, though, I can join a chorus of millions.
 
Trump continues to evolve, right now he is at dung beetle larva stage, when he eats enough crap in the Republican field - he gonna turn into a beautiful butterfly that promises unicorns rainbows. Since this is what Sanders supporters are susceptible to - well at least the large majority of his supporters which scientific polling have found to be a bunch of entitled, young, sexist, white males or BernieBros as they are otherwise known. As this very sizable chunk of bros cast their votes Trump, his final evolution form will be revealed. He will spread his wings and fly into the sunset giving free stuff to all and building walls across America - making America great again.

Amen

What would you call a woman for Bernie that has a BernieBro personality? I had one come after me who had basically no clue how government works. She said if Bernie doesn't win she would vote for Trump and she isn't even a democrat. She just wants Bernie to win. She wouldn't listen to reason on why a Trump win would be so bad. This was a Colombian woman too.
 
That's not what she said, though. She said, and I quote, "Maybe that's because every president before him looked exactly like you."

Exactly. Like. Me.

To the left, I will always just be a straight white male and my opinion can be completely disregarded due to that trifold fact!

Well shit, I have no voice in that group! Any deviation from dogma is reduced to my straight white maleness, and frankly, due to the terms of engagement, and the persistence of my straightness, my whiteness, and my maleness, my voice is unlikely to ever really be heard on the left.

On the right, though, I can join a chorus of millions.

Yes, maybe instead of getting pissed off, you can understand why black people get upset when they're asked about rioters half a continent away from them or 5th generation Latino citizens are asked about criminals who happen to share the same skin tone of them.

But, nah, instead of feeling empathy, you'll get upset somebody made the obvious connection. Because, yes, I'm a white guy, so when Obama was elected, I was happy, but now, I probably didn't have the same connection to it as a middle class black family in South Carolina whose grandparents church was possibly firebombed.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
That's not what she said, though. She said, and I quote, "Maybe that's because every president before him looked exactly like you."

Exactly. Like. Me.

To the left, I will always just be a straight white male and my opinion can be completely disregarded due to that trifold fact!

Well shit, I have no voice in that group! Any deviation from dogma is reduced to my straight white maleness, and frankly, due to the terms of engagement, and the persistence of my straightness, my whiteness, and my maleness, my voice is unlikely to ever really be heard on the left.


On the right, though, I can join a chorus of millions.

I'm a straight white guy and I don't feel my voice is unheard. But I also don't think that other people calling me on ignorance or on perspectives that might come from my background are an attempt to "silence me".

I'm actually genuinely surprised you specifically are complaining about being called out for "deviating from dogma" considering some of the political arguments I've seen you make in the past.
 
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