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PoliGAF 2016 |OT| Ask us about our performance with Latinos in Nevada

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I

Ignatz Mouse

Banned
Not sad to see that other mouse go…

The term “Identity Politics” needs to be called out as the bigotry that it is. If you think that voting to remove the injustices affecting large numbers of people in the country is an “identity” issue, then it shows that you are “identifying” as *not* that group, as if they are “other” and those injustices don’t matter to you. This is similar to that “own best interests” post I made a while back—it you aren’t concerned about the incarceration rates or police misconduct of minorities because they’re abstract to you, that’s one thing. To dismiss them as “identity politics” is straight up bigotry though. Are they not people?

Apply analogies as appropriate for LGBT or women’s issues. They’re all PEOPLE issues. I’m a person. My “identity politics” is favoring policies that benefit people. The fact that some of the issues facing people happen to affect people a different gender or orientation or skin color than me doesn’t really matter.

(FWIW, certain feminist issues *are* my issues as I've suffered all my life as a not-that-masculine man, but that's kinda small potatoes.)
 
U

User 463088

Banned
My supervisor is off site because of reasons that don't make any sense, but he's from Canada. During our Friday meeting, he spent about 10 minutes telling me why I should vote for Bernie. Bless. He got pretty into it...for a Canadian. He kept dropping a bunch of "You want the best, eh?" "You need healthcare for everyone, eh?" Bless.
 
C

Cybit

FGC Waterboy
adam387 said:
I see you coming for me girl. I see you.

There are very few things that can actually get me legitimately riled up. There are a few, but most of the time...naw.
Click to expand...

<3

"Riled up" huh...kinda like the BernieBro? ;) ;) :D

VendettaRed07 said:
OT is becoming Reddit. My College friends on Facebook are becoming more annoying than my conservative family members.

Poligaf is my only sanctuary
Click to expand...

OT Community is my refuge, to be honest. Asian-GAF, Sports-GAFs, Poli-GAF, Wrassle-GAF and occasional BCT (lots of FG players there)
 
K

kirblar

Member
Ignatz Mouse said:
Not sad to see that other mouse go…

The term “Identity Politics” needs to be called out as the bigotry that it is. If you think that voting to remove the injustices affecting large numbers of people in the country is an “identity” issue, then it shows that you are “identifying” as *not* that group, as if they are “other” and those injustices don’t matter to you. This is similar to that “own best interests” post I made a while back—it you aren’t concerned about the incarceration rates or police misconduct of minorities because they’re abstract to you, that’s one thing. To dismiss them as “identity politics” is straight up bigotry though. Are they not people?

Apply analogies as appropriate for LGBT or women’s issues. They’re all PEOPLE issues. I’m a person. My “identity politics” is favoring policies that benefit people. The fact that some of the issues facing people happen to affect people a different gender or orientation or skin color than me doesn’t really matter.

(FWIW, certain feminist issues *are* my issues as I've suffered all my life as a not-that-masculine man, but that's kinda small potatoes.)
Click to expand...
Identity Politics is a thing though. It's when you try to leverage identity to get people to react in a certain way. The raw pay gap statistic is an example of this- the adjusted number is much closer (still lower, but a far smaller degree) but the bigger raw number is used in order to deliberately rile people up. This type of thing isn't restricted to the left either- the "war on Christmas" stuff is a clear example of identity politics in action as well.

The term is not bigoted just because people misuse it- people will misuse everything because people are dumb.
 
C

Cybit

FGC Waterboy
adam387 said:
Ironically, his middle name is Riley.

Make of that what you will.
Click to expand...

<bites tongue>

kirblar said:
Identity Politics is a thing though. It's when you try to leverage identity to get people to react in a certain way. The raw pay gap statistic is an example of this- the adjusted number is much closer (still lower, but a far smaller degree) but the bigger raw number is used in order to deliberately rile people up. This type of thing isn't restricted to the left either- the "war on Christmas" stuff is a clear example of identity politics in action as well.

The term is not bigoted just because people misuse it- people will misuse everything because people are dumb.
Click to expand...

Seconded. There's nuance involved, but there's a difference.

Truth on that last line as well.
 
Y

Y2Kev

TLG Fan Caretaker Est. 2009
The donors were told that the Right to Rise super PAC has $15 million left in the bank.
Click to expand...

a) How?
b) How could the Bush campaign even know how much money RtR has in the bank? This whole superpac shit is nasty.
 
I

Ignatz Mouse

Banned
kirblar said:
Identity Politics is a thing though. It's when you try to leverage identity to get people to react in a certain way. The raw pay gap statistic is an example of this- the adjusted number is much closer (still lower, but a far smaller degree) but the bigger raw number is used in order to deliberately rile people up. This type of thing isn't restricted to the left either- the "war on Christmas" stuff is a clear example of identity politics in action as well.

The term is not bigoted just because people misuse it- people will misuse everything because people are dumb.
Click to expand...

Can you give me an example of its use where it isn't being used to dismiss the concerns of a group of people?
 
R

RastaMentality

Banned
cartoon_soldier said:
Where's this proof that people are getting turned of?
Click to expand...
Black Twitter certainly is. The statement made it seem like black voters can't think for themselves just because he's not polling well with us. Especially when there's tons of non black voters that love Obama and would prefer a third therm over the current choices.
 
N

NYCmetsfan

Banned
Dean Baker praises Alan Greenspan for helping minorities get jobs

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/the-four-economists-big-l_b_9275562.html
Fortunately, then Federal Reserve Board Chair Alan Greenspan did not accept this view. He allowed the unemployment rate to fall to 4.0 percent as a year-round average in 2000. This allowed millions of people to get jobs who would not otherwise have the opportunity. We saw the only period of sustained wage growth since the early 1970s. And the beneficiaries were disproportionately among the least advantaged: the less educated, African Americans, and Hispanics.
Click to expand...
 
K

kirblar

Member
Ignatz Mouse said:
Can you give me an example of its use where it isn't being used to dismiss the concerns of a group of people?
Click to expand...
The two examples I gave weren't enough?

It's come up for me when I refer to VOX- which does Identity Politics clickbait a LOT in addition to their good technocrat/wonky articles.
 
I

Ignatz Mouse

Banned
kirblar said:
The two examples I gave weren't enough?

It's come up for me when I refer to VOX- which does Identity Politics clickbait a LOT in addition to their good technocrat/wonky articles.
Click to expand...

I mean an actual quote or discussion. I've never seen it used except as a tactic to either dismiss an issue or to cast aspersions on people's motives.

While I agree that the "war on Christmas" is an issue worth dismissing (because it's nonsense) I don't think it should be dismissed because of the constituency of those concerned about it.
 
C

Cybit

FGC Waterboy
Ignatz Mouse said:
I mean an actual quote or discussion. I've never seen it used except as a tactic to either dismiss an issue or to cast aspersions on people's motives.

While I agree that the "war on Christmas" is an issue worth dismissing (because it's nonsense) I don't think it should be dismissed because of the constituency of those concerned about it.
Click to expand...

There was the time that in this very thread, that both kirblar and I were accused of being racist & sexist for saying that Vox's identity politics articles were terrible.
 
J

JesseEwiak

Member
kirblar said:
Identity Politics is a thing though. It's when you try to leverage identity to get people to react in a certain way. The raw pay gap statistic is an example of this- the adjusted number is much closer (still lower, but a far smaller degree) but the bigger raw number is used in order to deliberately rile people up. This type of thing isn't restricted to the left either- the "war on Christmas" stuff is a clear example of identity politics in action as well.

The term is not bigoted just because people misuse it- people will misuse everything because people are dumb.
Click to expand...

The difference is, your typical Bernie fan (ie. white, male, under 30, college educated, liberal in an urban area) doesn't see their concerns as "identity" politics - only those silly "extreme" feminists or BLM activists are evil identity politics and their just simply standing up for what's best for everybody that just so happens to be best for them as well.

All politics is identity politics of one form or another. But, in 2016 America, "identity politics" is a codeword even on the left for "things normal people shouldn't worry about because it's just the colored people or womens are getting uppity about what they think."

EDIT : I mean, you want some real identity politics? How about dudes on the Internet acting like your emails getting read is the largest civil rights issue of our time?
 
V

Valhelm

contribute something
neurosisxeno said:
Sanders' apparently picked up the backing of Nevada's Clark County Black Caucus? Not sure how much of an effect that well have.
Click to expand...

Clark County is the largest county in Nevada, containing the majority of the African American population. The Caucus' decision to support Bernie tomorrow could have some pretty big implications, especially given the conversational nature of a caucus.
 
I

Ignatz Mouse

Banned
JesseEwiak said:
All politics is identity politics of one form or another. But, in 2016 America, "identity politics" is a codeword even on the left for "things normal people shouldn't worry about because it's just the colored people or womens are getting uppity about what they think."
Click to expand...

That's the only way I ever hear it used.
 
C

Cybit

FGC Waterboy
Ignatz Mouse said:
That's the only way I ever hear it used.
Click to expand...

I think that's because a) we're on the internet a lot and b) we're going to places that are heavily predisposed to that specific aspect (extremely left-leaning sites) of it.

I am a big free speech proponent (because, well, tiny minority and grew up in an area where there were very few others of my culture) - and there I see completely different usages of identity politics. Sports is another giant place where is a lot of identity involved.

My hunch has always been that the internet and the ability to communicate with so many people so quickly did a number on folks' ideas of self-identity. It's hard to be unique when you are connected to such a large world, and so our typical "unique" qualities started being seen as not unique, and we're still trying to figure out our identities in the face of that.
 
M

Macho Madness

Member
Apparently Bernie's people have sent out some wrong information about how the NV caucus works. Could cause problems tomorrow. I'm on my phone so can't go in detail but Jon Ralston has everything about it on Twitter. There's also concern of Republicans participating and intentionally throwing the caucus their preferred way.

More: http://Twitter.com/ralstonreports
 
B

BoboBrazil

Member
&#8207;@HillaryClinton 21 minutes ago
.@POTUS' achievements speak for themselves. The idea that supporting him is a ploy to win black votes is baffling.
 
K

kirblar

Member
Ignatz Mouse said:
I mean an actual quote or discussion. I've never seen it used except as a tactic to either dismiss an issue or to cast aspersions on people's motives.

While I agree that the "war on Christmas" is an issue worth dismissing (because it's nonsense) I don't think it should be dismissed because of the constituency of those concerned about it.
Click to expand...
It's not, it's dismissed because it's exaggerated nonsense, which is where the identity politics label is appropriate.

The reason the raw wage gap is an example of this is because that raw wage gap will always be there. It's a boogeyman that will be there forever because of men/women having very different incentives in their 20s/30s regarding parenthood. It's not used as an accurate data point for discussion, it's used as a cudgel to try and drive activism.

The label is normally appropriate when things are being framed in a hyperbolic, adversarial way that's intended to mobilize people rather than to have an accurate discussion on the issue at hand.
 
C

cartoon_soldier

Member
Macho Madness said:
Apparently Bernie's people have sent out some wrong information about how the NV caucus works. Could cause problems tomorrow. I'm on my phone so can't go in detail but Jon Ralston has everything about it on Twitter. There's also concern of Republicans participating and intentionally throwing the caucus their preferred way.

More: http://Twitter.com/ralstonreports
Click to expand...

Already setting it up for Clinton stole Nevada narrative from Bernie Bros I see.
 
J

JesseEwiak

Member
Cybit said:
I think that's because a) we're on the internet a lot and b) we're going to places that are heavily predisposed to that specific aspect (extreme left-wing sites) of it.

I am a big free speech proponent (because, well, tiny minority and grew up in an area where there were very few others of my culture) - and there I see completely different usages of identity politics. Sports is another giant place where is a lot of identity involved.

My hunch has always been that the internet and the ability to communicate with so many people so quickly did a number on folks' ideas of self-identity. It's hard to be unique when you are connected to such a large world, and so our typical "unique" qualities started being seen as not unique, and we're still trying to figure out our identities in the face of that.
Click to expand...

But my point is stuff such as that is never called out as identity politics within the mainstream. It's only when black activists go a little too far or a feminist says something that upsets dudes on the Internet that The Atlantic or Jonathan Chait has a 10,000 word article on the horribleness of political correctness.

It's taken Donald Trump all but saying "I'm appealing to the people who call Obama a nigger" for columnists to even talk about white identity politics despite it's overwhelming effect on American politics in the last 40 years.
 
B

BoboBrazil

Member
neurosisxeno said:
....are people saying that?
Click to expand...

CbhyQSSUcAAAzQH.jpg
 
N

neurosisxeno

Member
BoboBrazil said:
CbhyQSSUcAAAzQH.jpg
Click to expand...

Still doesn't cite a source, but I get what Senator Sanders was saying. I think saying it was to court black voters is a bit of a mistake but I think he's just trying to (continually) dispel the narrative that Barrack Obama is immune to criticism. In the 2-3 debates I watched Clinton was always painting Sanders as someone who was bad for the Democratic Party because he had the audacity to criticize Obama.

cartoon_soldier said:
He said it in an interview with BET.

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/...ry-clinton-obama-black-voters-219455?lo=ap_b2
Click to expand...

Ah.
 
B

benicillin

Banned
neurosisxeno said:
Still doesn't cite a source, but I get what Senator Sanders was saying. I think saying it was to court black voters is a bit of a mistake but I think he's just trying to (continually) dispel the narrative that Barrack Obama is immune to criticism. In the 2-3 debates I watched Clinton was always painting Sanders as someone who was bad for the Democratic Party because he had the audacity to criticize Obama.
Click to expand...

I more or less agree. I don't think anyone could say that Clinton isn't playing politics by playing up her alliance with Obama in the last few debates / town halls and trying to paint Bernie as some anti-Obama person, but on the other side the idea that a nominee would want to ally themselves with a very popular incumbent President is kind of obvious.

As is usual with Bernie he could have found a way to frame it better, even if I don't necessarily disagree with him.
 
C

Cybit

FGC Waterboy
JesseEwiak said:
But my point is stuff such as that is never called out as identity politics within the mainstream. It's only when black activists go a little too far or a feminist says something that upsets dudes on the Internet that The Atlantic or Jonathan Chait has a 10,000 word article on the horribleness of political correctness.

It's taken Donald Trump all but saying "I'm appealing to the people who call Obama a nigger" for columnists to even talk about white identity politics despite it's overwhelming effect on American politics in the last 40 years.
Click to expand...

I think the issue in Missouri and Columbia were taken as such, and those were free speech issues. I think the bigger reasoning is that the mainstream is only going to report what gets it clicks and views, and those are the issues that gets it clicks and views - creating a self-reinforcing cycle. Hell, even TNC admitted that the Bernie article was absolutely clickbait.

The calcifying of sides in the media has been happening since the early 2000s - but now we're just seeing it happen everywhere because most of those large media conglomerates have started picking up the sites that used to be independent. Theoretically independent and impartial news sites now openly lean one way or the other, and court consumers that are ideologically aligned to them, while publishing articles that those ideologically different from them will use to mock and get angry about, but still give them clicks and views.

If you haven't ever gotten a chance to read it; read "Trust Me, I'm Lying". Pretty interesting peek into how much of this works (on a more general level than just identity politics).
 
C

Chezzymann

Member
So are moderate republicans a dying breed? Only one i can think of is Kasich but his poll numbers are low enough that its safe to assume he isn't gonna get the nom. When comparing Trump, Cruz, and even Rubio; guys like McCain look like moderates.

Its kind of becoming true on the left as well with Sanders being super far left, its kind of worrying how both parties are increasingly splitting further and further apart.
 
C

cartoon_soldier

Member
Chezzymann said:
So are moderate republicans a dying breed? Only one i can think of is Kasich but his poll numbers are low enough that its safe to assume he isn't gonna get the nom. When comparing Trump, Cruz, and even Rubio; guys like McCain look like moderates.

Its kind of becoming true on the left as well with Sanders being super far left, its kind of worrying how both parties are increasingly splitting further and further apart.
Click to expand...

No, moderates just don't get involved in primaries that much.
 
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