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PoliGAF 2016 |OT| Ask us about our performance with Latinos in Nevada

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Correlation is not causation as they say. Bush had started sliding down in the polls before the first debate even happened, he even jumped up a bit in the weeks after the second debate. I mean, surely we're not convinced it was Carson's "stellar" debate performances that caused him to soar into the polls?

I do think people are right that the media is going to frame this as the losing moment for Rubio in NH, but the existing context was already an assumption that he was going to lose there to Cruz/Trump.
 
The answers Ted Cruz gives on drug addiction are so impossibly bad and something I can't at all see playing well moving forward. He seems to still not know it's white people that are taking heroin now. The "Mexican wall" shit...
 
Watching Bernie's SNL sketch. He's a surprisingly good actor by politician standards. Especially considering how low he set the bar with his singing.
 
My memory may be broken, but I'm sure Bush was shit before he ever stood on a debate stage with Trump.

It's a little bit of everything. Jeb was always shit. Everyone feared that he was shit, but being disciplined by Trump like a schoolchild and called a weakling dogged him throughout the trail and people's fears were proven true. Everyone feared that Marco was just a facade and there is nothing under the hood. Today Christie revealed that to be the case as well. Everyone's worst fears about establishment candidates are coming true.
 
Presented without comment.

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T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
My memory may be broken, but I'm sure Bush was shit before he ever stood on a debate stage with Trump.

I remember him constantly saying dumb stuff that brought back memories of 47%, but none of that stuff was going to hurt him for the primary.
 

East Lake

Member
Presented without comment.
I think it's possible it could hurt him. Maybe with how close it is to the primary as more people make up their minds. At this point it's impossible to know though. It wouldn't surprise me to see him get second anyway, and even if his polls started dropping it would probably be hard to say this did it. Maybe voters might end up liking Kasich or Christie more or something.
 
The debate tonight should soothe some worries that Trump would go middle in the general. He completely refuses to go away from his core beliefs as the eminent domain thing shows. He's going to keep calling Mexican rapists and keep calling for a wall and a ban on Muslim immigration, he'll just mix that in with a lot of sexism against Hillary.
 
But opposition to eminent domain is generally a Republican / conservative thing.

By allowing eminent domain, Trump's taking the more centrist stance.

But that's bad for winning votes right now and therefore bad for his chances for nomination, showing that there are stances that he won't throw away for votes.
 

SmokeMaxX

Member
This could hurt Rubio but where would his voters go? Kasich and Jeb are doa. I guess christie? He doesn't really inspire confidence either.
 

Holmes

Member
This could hurt Rubio but where would his voters go? Kasich and Jeb are doa. I guess christie? He doesn't really inspire confidence either.
Kasich/Christie/Bush voters have been going to Rubio in New Hampshire after his third place showing in Iowa. They can easily go back.
 

pigeon

Banned
Vox has an interesting take on how this really is bad for Rubio -- it's something that the media and the elites will notice but the average voter probably won't, but Rubio's campaign is actually entirely dependent on the media and the elites. So a lingering gaffe like this might not actually hurt him in the election, but it hurts his ability to use the establishment to gather support because this is the kind of thing the establishment pays attention to, and might cost him the nomination that way.
 
Rubio and Christie really exposed the duality of Obama Derangement Symptom. I remember the first GOP talking point about Obama's presidency was that he hadn't accomplished anything. People forget but this was the standard spin throughout his first hundred days in office and for awhile afterward. Obama as Carter - not in terms of foreign policy weakness, but in terms of allegedly not getting anything done, going on dates with his wife instead of fufilling campaign promises, not fixing the oil spill fast enough, etc.

Seven years later and Obama has turned out to be arguably the most consequential president since LBJ, domestically. The country had seen some changes that weren't considered possible as early as 2004, for instance. Republicans have responded by arguing Obama has been a disaster and the worst president ever while also maintaining he is a feckless ineffective fool. Yet if that were the case how did he "fundamentally change America?"

Obama has been very effective. I've seen Cruz make this argument, this was the first time I've seen Rubio make it. But it's the truth. The fact is that every GOP debate revolves around republicans promising to change things that Obama has accomplished. That alone tells the tale.
 

SmokeMaxX

Member
Kasich/Christie/Bush voters have been going to Rubio in New Hampshire after his third place showing in Iowa. They can easily go back.
Can they, though? There comes a point where you have to decide on a viable candidate and making jeb go from 5% to 10% still doesn't make him viable.
 

Muzy72

Banned
Wow, I was looking at the sample Democrat primary ballot for Texas, and there's a lot more things to vote for in the primaries than I thought. o_O

Looks like I have a lot of research to do! What's the best way to research local candidates?
 
Rubio and Christie really exposed the duality of Obama Derangement Symptom. I remember the first GOP talking point about Obama's presidency was that he hadn't accomplished anything. People forget but this was the standard spin throughout his first hundred days in office and for awhile afterward. Obama as Carter - not in terms of foreign policy weakness, but in terms of allegedly not getting anything done, going on dates with his wife instead of fufilling campaign promises, not fixing the oil spill fast enough, etc.

Seven years later and Obama has turned out to be arguably the most consequential president since LBJ, domestically. The country had seen some changes that weren't considered possible as early as 2004, for instance. Republicans have responded by arguing Obama has been a disaster and the worst president ever while also maintaining he is a feckless ineffective fool. Yet if that were the case how did he "fundamentally change America?"

Obama has been very effective. I've seen Cruz make this argument, this was the first time I've seen Rubio make it. But it's the truth. The fact is that every GOP debate revolves around republicans promising to change things that Obama has accomplished. That alone tells the tale.

It really feels like American politicians and Americans are finally coming to grips with Obama's legacy and how he's changed America. Hillary has rushed to embrace Obama and the GOP has melted down trying to explain how this feckless weakling always wins against them. Meanwhile, Obama's approval ratings are going up a good bit.
 

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
Wow, I was looking at the sample Democrat primary ballot for Texas, and there's a lot more things to vote for in the primaries than I thought. o_O

Looks like I have a lot of research to do! What's the best way to research local candidates?

In NYC it's usually the weekly neighborhood papers, but they don't get everyone, so it could be the same for you.
 
I had actually never heard of them tbh, until they started being posted about every second day during these primaries... I've no idea why they're treated as some sort of authority...
 
Jeb is envy, cruz is wrath, Kaisich is ????



Also why can't we get some econ 101 rebuttal, lowering taxes should not make you hire more people unless you weren't running your business well.

Definitely not true.

1) Econ 101 is not labor economics and wouldn't really tell you anything about that situation.

2) Lowering either the payroll tax on employers or the payroll tax on employees would lead to increased hiring and higher wages.

3) Look up tax incidence.
 

tmarg

Member
Definitely not true.


2) Lowering either the payroll tax on employers or the payroll tax on employees would lead to increased hiring and higher wages.

No it won't. A profitable company will try to hire exactly however many employees it needs to meet the demand of it's customers. Hiring more is wasteful, regardless of what taxes are imposed, and hiring fewer means that they can't meet their obligations.
 
God, I went from -200 to +400 entirely off the strength of that Rubio glitch. This is amazing. If Trump just holds on in NH, we're talking refurbished MacBook Pro money.

Also, campfire weekend is correct. The trade off is that the payroll tax funds some useful stuff.
 

tmarg

Member
Here's a citation.

https://www.cbo.gov/publication/25028

Are you gonna offer one, or keep trying to lecture someone that's taken two courses on labor economics?

Your article specifically refers to a program in which companies are specifically required to increase employment in order to receive the tax benefit. Such programs could work in theory, except companies have a long history of not following through on their end of such bargains.
 
Your article specifically refers to a program in which companies are specifically required to increase employment in order to receive the tax benefit. Such programs could work in theory, except companies have a long history of not following through on their end of such bargains.

So that's a no on both the counter citation and reading what I linked.

Here, I'll read it for you:


Now look at the row that straight up just says reduce employer payroll tax.

Then look at the row that straight up just says reduce employee payroll tax.

Reducing Employers’ Payroll Taxes. Social Security,
which consists of Old-Age, Survivors, and Disability
Insurance, is financed by payroll taxes. Under current law,
both employers and employees pay 6.2 percent of an
employee’s annual earnings up to a ceiling that is adjusted
for wage growth and equals $106,800 in 2010. CBO
analyzed an option that would reduce employers’ payroll
taxes for 2010.
Firms would probably respond to this temporary reduction in their portion of the payroll tax through a combination of four channels. First, some firms would respond
to lower employment costs by reducing the prices they
charge in order to sell more goods or services. Those
higher sales would in turn spur production, which would
then increase hours worked and hiring. Second, some
firms would pass the tax savings on to employees in the
form of higher wages or other forms of compensation,
which in turn encourage more spending by those employees. However, wages tend to be inflexible in the short run
because of negotiation and administrative costs, so that
response is not likely to be very large. Third, some firms
would retain the tax savings as profits. Higher profits
would raise companies’ stock prices, and the resulting
higher household wealth would encourage more consumption, although shareholders are likely to spend only
a small portion of their gains. Higher profits would also
improve cash flow, enabling firms facing borrowing constraints to buy new equipment. Fourth, some firms
would use slightly more labor during a period when it
was temporarily less expensive. However, most of the
money forgone by the government would go to reduce
taxes for existing workers, so—per dollar of forgone revenue—the added incentive to increase employment and
hours worked would be small. (For discussion of CBO’s
modeling approach for the effects of reduced labor costs,
see Box 4 on page 14.)

Draw conclusions.
 

tmarg

Member
So that's a no on both the counter citation and reading what I linked.

Here, I'll read it for you:



Now look at the row that straight up just says reduce employer payroll tax.

Then look at the row that straight up just says reduce employee payroll tax.



Draw conclusions.

First of all, I did read what you linked. I didn't read a pdf within a link within your link.
Second of all, even what you just posted still shows that cutting payroll taxes is far less efficient than other methods. It's just bad policy.
 
Definitely not true.

1) Econ 101 is not labor economics and wouldn't really tell you anything about that situation.

2) Lowering either the payroll tax on employers or the payroll tax on employees would lead to increased hiring and higher wages.

3) Look up tax incidence.

2: That's not exactly true. You must have an increased NEED for labor, outside of efficiency increases, before taxes even affect the situation at all. Labor supply/demand would appear to have a much greater effect on hiring and especially wages, also taking into account the relative scarcity and skills needed. Thats outside the case of taxes so onerous that all profit generated by increased hiring is erased, which is generally not the current condition. That's a pretty specific situation to be reduced to 'decreased taxes would increase hiring and wages'.

It's facile to say that wages would increase with tax increases when that increased revenue would more likely be used to increase margins outside of labor supply demand issues.
 
First of all, I did read what you linked. I didn't read a pdf within a link within your link.
Second of all, even what you just posted still shows that cutting payroll taxes is far less efficient than other methods. It's just bad policy.

Okay, move goalposts.

We weren't at all discussing the efficiency of such a plan, only the effect.

Reducing taxes on firms can influence hiring decisions in way that increases employment. If you'll admit that, cool. Because that's the only ignorance I was trying to correct.

Defending Republican ideas as not entirely horrible economics is not an endorsement of said ideas. The payroll tax funds social security. I don't want to cut it.

I at least hope you've learned something about labor, because what you were saying before about how hiring decisions are made was wrong.

2: That's not exactly true. You must have an increased NEED for labor, outside of efficiency increases, before taxes even affect the situation at all. Labor supply/demand would appear to have a much greater effect on hiring and especially wages, also taking into account the relative scarcity and skills needed. Thats outside the case of taxes so onerous that all profit generated by increased hiring is erased, which is generally not the current condition. That's a pretty specific situation to be reduced to 'decreased taxes would increase hiring and wages'.

It's facile to say that wages would increase with tax increases when that increased revenue would more likely be used to increase margins outside of labor supply demand issues.
I'll also point you to the post I just made. What you're saying doesn't have a foundation in economics.
 
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