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PoliGAF 2016 |OT| Ask us about our performance with Latinos in Nevada

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M

Makai

Member
90
 
R

Retromelon

Member
Did yall know in the early nineties nixon described hillary as a tower of fortitude and intellect? Now thats an endorsement i can get behind ;)
 
R

Retromelon

Member
dramatis said:
It's notable that you only think about the source of the words rather than the reality of them.
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I would never doubt the veracity of anything dick would say ;)) hillary's as clean as a hounds tooth.

Teggy said:
So is that Bernie logo going back or to the left?

Or...back and to the left. Back and to the left. Whoa.
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It isnt kennedy fam


I thought u were riding the bernie bus with us aaron, what happened
 
A

Aaron Strife

Banned
Teggy said:
So is that Bernie logo going back or to the left?

Or...back and to the left. Back and to the left. Whoa.
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We'll go to the left so that we can go back to not winning elections!

Run Sanders clones in all every race! Because that's totally what the 50 state strategy was!
 
E

Ecotic

Member
I'm really happy to see Trump back in the driver's seat (I appreciate that assist Christie, I'll remember you for this).

Trump's "I'd bring back waterboarding and a hell of a lot worse" comment reminded me of just how near impossible it will be for him to reposition himself for the general. And his "Oh, I needed a ground game to win an election, who knew?" reaction is very encouraging.
 
U

ugaboga232

Member
Fair enough at establishment attacks. I think the speaker fees are important and annoying to the clintons but wouldnt be an issue if they didnt take the speeches. It seems more like frustration. In the end they will almost certainly win so I don't know why they are getting so flustered.
 
I

ivysaur12

Banned
shinra-bansho said:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/08/u...eashes-stinging-attack-on-bernie-sanders.html

Also, Rand Paul said something somewhere today, but nobody cared.
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I actually think he has an interesting point here:

“ ‘Anybody that doesn’t agree with me is a tool of the establishment,’ ” Mr. Clinton said, mocking what he described as the central critique of Mrs. Clinton by Mr. Sanders.
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Which I've sort of been annoyed with (and have stated here before) that the term "establishment" now just means "Not Bernie", as evidenced by the handwringing over the HRC and PP endorsement versus other labor unions.

Is it a good idea to attack Bernie? Meh, it's Bubba, and I think that he's more charismatic than anyone else in this race at the moment and can probably get away with it. I also think he's right that the harassment that supporters of Clinton have faced on social media has been striking (don't tell Glenn Greenwald that, because people are mean and something about how all campaigns do it and idk idk)
 
K

kirblar

Member
ugaboga232 said:
Which are?
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The data breach. The past week on twitter w/ the whole "not a progressive thing. Sanders's obvious disinterest in actual policy. The general sense that the Sanders campaign is something more akin to a Kamikaze plane than an organized fleet.

They've been treating him with kid gloves until now.
Fair enough at establishment attacks. I think the speaker fees are important and annoying to the clintons but wouldnt be an issue if they didnt take the speeches. It seems more like frustration. In the end they will almost certainly win so I don't know why they are getting so flustered.
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Because none of the GOP candidates can attack on these axes in the general election.

It's not that Sanders is running, it's that he's running in such a way that he does nothing but inflict damage in the general when it's pretty obvious he's not actually serious about the whole thing.
 
A

Armaros

Member
kirblar said:
The data breach. The past week on twitter w/ the whole "not a progressive thing. Sanders' obvious disinterest in actual policy. The general sense that the Sanders campaign is something more akin to a Kamikaze plane than an organized fleet.

They've been treating him with kid gloves until now.

Because none of the GOP candidates can attack on these axes in the general election.
Click to expand...

Imagine if Obama spouted the same things Bernie said in debates on Foreign policy vs Mcain.

Iran and Saudi Arabia working together? Someone who has spend a day learning about politics in the middle east would tell you that's laughable.
 
D

disastermouse

Banned
ivysaur12 said:
I actually think he has an interesting point here:



Which I've sort of been annoyed with (and have stated here before) that the term "establishment" now just means "Not Bernie", as evidenced by the handwringing over the HRC and PP endorsement versus other labor unions.

Is it a good idea to attack Bernie? Meh, it's Bubba, and I think that he's more charismatic than anyone else in this race at the moment and can probably get away with it. I also think he's right that the harassment that supporters of Clinton have faced on social media has been striking (don't tell Glenn Greenwald that, because people are mean and something about how all campaigns do it and idk idk)
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The establishment is more than 'not Bernie', it's also 'not Kshama', it's also 'not BLM (yet)', it's also 'not young people', and it's certainly also 'not Marxists'.
 
T

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
kirblar said:
The data breach. The past week on twitter w/ the whole "not a progressive thing. Sanders's obvious disinterest in actual policy. The general sense that the Sanders campaign is something more akin to a Kamikaze plane than an organized fleet.
Click to expand...
Yeah Sanders is sort of starting to piss me off. Back in September when things were kicking off the sloppiness of his campaign was acceptable as it found its feet, but they need to get their shit together
 
R

Republic of Ezo

Member
disastermouse said:
His critique of Capitalism is stellar, regardless of what you think about his proposed solutions.

Also, you kinda made a cut re:Hillary there, since they actually sell a Clinton cutout.
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Agreed. I think the difference is that his observations were based on known facts and things that were actually happening whereas the proposed solutions were entirely theoretical and untestable.
 
A

Aaron Strife

Banned
Retromelon said:
I thought u were riding the bernie bus with us aaron, what happened
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I'm a pretty jaded Bernie supporter, if only because I'm tired of seeing people with no sense of political reality talk about like "Oh yeah well if we'd just run a real liberal in Idaho we'd totally win" "We can just call the Supreme Court!" "What's the difference between a Congressman and a Senator?"

Like I admire the enthusiasm but we saw this same song and dance with Obama supporters in 2008 pinning their hopes and dreams on one candidate, except he could actually win primaries.
 
R

Republic of Ezo

Member
kirblar said:
It's not that Sanders is running, it's that he's running in such a way that he does nothing but inflict damage in the general when it's pretty obvious he's not actually serious about the whole thing.
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Even as a Hillary supporter I don't think that's fair. I do think Sanders is serious and I trust that he will get behind Hillary if (when) he loses. You're allowed to take shots in a primary and he could have done much worse things than he has.

I think the lack serious policy and focus is indicative of his personality though. And like many have said, I don't think he really cares about foreign policy. He's a dove, which is pretty consistent with his Social Democratic positions.
 
D

disastermouse

Banned
The Technomancer said:
Yeah Sanders is sort of starting to piss me off. Back in September when things were kicking off the sloppiness of his campaign was acceptable as it found its feet, but they need to get their shit together
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I think that it's taken everyone by surprise just how much Sanders has surged. Add that to the fact that he's not dealing with the political 'A-Team' because Hillary vacuumed then all up ahead of time, and I think that maybe we need more than a handful of debates and 'not-even-the-first-Primary' to start coming down too hard on Bernie.

And then consider that a presidential campaign veteran like Hillary, who does have the 'A-Team' (and a helluva lot of high dollar donors), is tripping all over herself over responses to obvious lines of attack. How does she still not have a response to the Wall Street stuff besides 'it's sexist to attack me for it'?

And she's losing women and then Boomersplaining to them why they're naive or stupid to not vote for her. Awesome politics!
 
K

kirblar

Member
Aaron Strife said:
I'm a pretty jaded Bernie supporter, if only because I'm tired of seeing people with no sense of political reality talk about like "Oh yeah well if we'd just run a real liberal in Idaho we'd totally win" "We can just call the Supreme Court!" "What's the difference between a Congressman and a Senator?"

Like I admire the enthusiasm but we saw this same song and dance with Obama supporters in 2008 pinning their hopes and dreams on one candidate, except he could actually win primaries.
Click to expand...
He also provided a lift to downballot races, IIRC - they didn't go into it with a supermajority for no reason.

That will not happen with Sanders. He's Ron Paul, no Obama II, New Testament.
 
K

kirblar

Member
Republic of Ezo said:
Even as a Hillary supporter I don't think that's fair. I do think Sanders is serious and I trust that he will get behind Hillary if (when) he loses. You're allowed to take shots in a primary and he could have done much worse things than he has.

I think the lack serious policy and focus is indicative of his personality though. And like many have said, I don't think he really cares about foreign policy. He's a dove, which is pretty consistent with his Social Democratic positions.
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George W. Bush was notoriously disinterested in policy and details as president.

It's a very bad personality trait for an executive office-holder.

(oops, double post, sorry about that.)
 
D

disastermouse

Banned
Republic of Ezo said:
Agreed. I think the difference is that his observations were based on known facts and things that were actually happening whereas the proposed solutions were entirely theoretical and untestable.
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It's like predicting evolution, and I really don't think he grasped just how much the working class would have to elevate itself to managing itself together. It isn't a long jump to go from being a banking cartel leader or a successful trader or businessman to becoming a political leader. That jump is so much greater for the working class, as evidenced by how few Marxist revolutionary leaders actually came from the working class. I think Marx figured that you could capture state power and figure the rest out later, but that's a disastrous non-plan.
 
R

Retromelon

Member
Aaron Strife said:
I'm a pretty jaded Bernie supporter, if only because I'm tired of seeing people with no sense of political reality talk about like "Oh yeah well if we'd just run a real liberal in Idaho we'd totally win" "We can just call the Supreme Court!" "What's the difference between a Congressman and a Senator?"

Like I admire the enthusiasm but we saw this same song and dance with Obama supporters in 2008 pinning their hopes and dreams on one candidate, except he could actually win primaries.
Click to expand...
Hah, I dont go into ot political threads so often so i dont see those people. I mostly hear about how naive they are from disgruntled people posting here.

The two things that trouble me about supporting bernie is how he will be able to fight a republican party with their socialism tar bucket in hand, and how a lot of his proposals sound like pie in the sky best case scenario promises that will never pass a congress opposed to him while hillary is hardened and muttering about executive actions and going it alone...
Sometimes i wake up sweatily at night and wonder if neoxchaos is right

"Whats the difference between a congressman and a senator" is making me lol for real
 
K

kirblar

Member
disastermouse said:
It's like predicting evolution, and I really don't think he grasped just how much the working class would have to elevate itself to managing itself together. It isn't a long jump to go from being a banking cartel leader or a successful trader or businessman to becoming a political leader. That jump is so much greater for the working class, as evidenced by how few Marxist revolutionary leaders actually came from the working class. I think Marx figured that you could capture state power and figure the rest out later, but that's a disastrous non-plan.
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Revolution is led by people with lots of time and money on their hands.
 
A

Aaron Strife

Banned
kirblar said:
He also provided a lift to downballot races, IIRC - they didn't go into it with a supermajority for no reason.

That will not happen with Sanders. He's Ron Paul, no Obama II, New Testament.
Click to expand...
But you see, if Sanders is the nominee, turnout will rise to 70-75%.

Step 1:
 
A

Armaros

Member
kirblar said:
Revolution is led by people with lots of time and money on their hands.
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Revolution also requires people to pay attention to the entire machine they want to take down, and not just pine for the top of the hill (the presidency)

The Presidency is not some dictatorship that can get everything done on a whim, so you have to get people elected in other parts of the government, and the entire Bernie Campaign seems disinterested in that fact even while calling for a political Revolution.

If there was evidence that there is a widespread hard left popular-ism movement in local and congressional elections being supported by possible top of the ticket, that would make it more believable.
 
K

kirblar

Member
Armaros said:
Revolution also requires people to pay attention to the entire machine they want to take down, and not just pine for the top of the hill (the presidency)

The Presidency is not some dictatorship that can get everything done on a whim, so you have to get people elected in other parts of the government, and the entire Bernie Campaign seems disinterested in that fact even while calling for a political Revolution.
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Oh, that wasn't a shot at Bernie, that was just saying how it gets led by upper class people (see: Bin Laden) because the working classes don't have time for that shit.

It's also a big social reason why you don't want high unemployment (and you really don't want high male youth unemployment.)
 
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