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PoliGAF 2016 |OT15| Orange is the New Black

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Lose an election in part because the campaign didn't appeal to necessary demographics?

Sure sounds like the perfect reason to rely on purity tests when determining who should lead the efforts to fight back! It's not like this loss should signal the dangers of having too narrow a message or appeal.
 
So, Americans, the 46.9% who didn't vote in this election... who are they? Income-wise, racially, geographically. Who is it that election after election decide to doesn't show up?

Republicans in Cali and Dems in Texas because it's futile? Young people?
"All politicians are the same" people
 

george_us

Member
Just Trump voters? Nah, the whole damn country. Shiny and chrome is what gets you elected. Look at the last 40 years worth of elections. Outside of GW everyone is shiny and chrome.
Oh my God.

Mad Max really is going to be an accurate look at our future, isn't it?
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
I, personally, do not think Dean is the right choice.

We need to go for someone fresher and younger.

We need to go with someone who uniquely suited to the Democratic coalition of 2016 (again, he's a white guy).

We need to go with someone who, like Obama (though less important), can bridge the gap between Technocrat and Social Democrats. We need both parts of the party moving forward.

yeah, this argument leans me towards Ellison, I have to admit - if only because his history is an absolute testament to the fact that you can be both an economic progressive and a proud firebrand for social progressivism. I think he's the bridge that the party needs right now. I just wish that he'd consider leaving his seat for it.
 
Here's a claim: the Democratic Party should stand for and advocate equal rights for people of color.

It should be one of the largest points in their platform.

Who agrees with this, and who doesn't?

Probably a higher percentage of Bernie people support this, in fact as the data shown more Hillary voters during the primary held more racist views than Bernie supporters did. Why it seems like ya'll think Bernie supporters don't believe in your statement above speaks more the stalwarts here than it does about the 'Berniebots'.
 

WMBT27

Member
Overheard in southwest Ohio

"I tell you, a lot of this media needs to be in jail. All those lies they told. They should go to jail for telling false information"
 

Debirudog

Member
Jesus fucking Christ.

Look, it's one thing to be vindicative and say "I told you so" but then pushing out all the people who endorsed Clinton is stupid as fuck. Biden is a better candidate than Bernie. Enough with this gloating bs.
 

Totakeke

Member
Here's another reason to reconsider the numbers we've seen.

hvN7iK0.png
 
The Democratic party will become irrelevant if we really go down this purity test bullshit

Clinton was a bad candidate. We aren't tea partying ourselves because of that.
 

Prompto

Banned
For people old enough, were things this bleak when Bush won? And during his presidency?

I was just a blissfully unaware kid for most of his presidency.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
The Democratic party will become irrelevant if we really go down this purity test bullshit

It's not a purity test. People are concerned about those who backed Clinton because Clinton was responsible for the worst Democratic defeat in a generation, that handed the GOP power on a scale not seen in almost a century. That screams of bad judgement. Like, if you backed such a bad candidate now, why should we trust you to pick good candidates in the future?
 

CoolOff

Member
Wait till the counting and actual analysis is done.

Give me 2008 and 2012 based data then, because I assume it doesn't shift too much. I'm not talking minor shifts and nuances for this specific election, rather a profile of the half of the nation which stays home. I come from a country where the number of non-voters is about 3 times lower, so having almost half the nation not vote fascinates/horrifies me.
 
Is anyone actually saying that HRC lost because she was too focused on race?

They are saying she needed to focus more on rural white racist voters and their concerns.

Venture outside of PoliGAF to regular OT and you will see. Posters there don't venture here, and vice versa.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
It's not a purity test. People are concerned about those who backed Clinton because Clinton was responsible for the worst Democratic defeat in a generation, that handed the GOP power on a scale not seen in almost a century. That screams of bad judgement. Like, if you backed such a bad candidate now, why should we trust you to pick good candidates in the future?

I mean, Bernie also backed Clinton. For that matter, Ellison almost certainly did. No-one actually thought she was going to lose.

The question isn't if Dean backed Clinton, and entirely "if Dean was the DNC chair, would he have pursued the same strategy?" Almost certainly not
 

Cybit

FGC Waterboy
Here's another reason to reconsider the numbers we've seen.

hvN7iK0.png

Yeah; Cohn's analyzing the voter rolls and he's adamant that it wasn't turnout that beat the Dems (as the exit polls indicated); it is two time Obama voters voting for Trump in droves.
 
It's not a purity test. People are concerned about those who backed Clinton because Clinton was responsible for the worst Democratic defeat in a generation, that handed the GOP power on a scale not seen in almost a century. That screams of bad judgement. Like, if you backed such a bad candidate now, why should we trust you to pick good candidates in the future?

For those who were trying to part the waters for her coronation I would agree. I don't see how Dean fits that mold. We should never try and pick someone because we think they deserve it again, but supporting Clinton once it was down to Berne and her does not make you stupid. Most of the party did. If you want to clean out the DNC that is fine but some people are acting like Sanders is now the kingame of the Democratic party.
 

Totakeke

Member
It's not a purity test. People are concerned about those who backed Clinton because Clinton was responsible for the worst Democratic defeat in a generation, that handed the GOP power on a scale not seen in almost a century. That screams of bad judgement. Like, if you backed such a bad candidate now, why should we trust you to pick good candidates in the future?

The whole political polling and data industry failed as well. It was a catastrophic failure. Saying that people who have failed this election will not get a second chance means you're left with a small segment of people... which includes people who didn't vote out of misguided aims of protest.
 
For people old enough, were things this bleak when Bush won? And during his presidency?

I was just a blissfully unaware kid for most of his presidency.

i remember 2004 vividly, and it was similarly bleak. i was in a stupor for a few months and it wasn't until Bush rolled out his disastrous lets privatize Social Security plan that me, and i think a lot of dems, got back into things.
 

Plinko

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
Looking at everything coming out, it appears the GOP is just going to turn the country into Kansas with their economic policies. Good luck with that.
 
yeah, this argument leans me towards Ellison, I have to admit - if only because his history is an absolute testament to the fact that you can be both an economic progressive and a proud firebrand for social progressivism. I think he's the bridge that the party needs right now. I just wish that he'd consider leaving his seat for it.

The fact that he won't leave his seat makes me really hesitate wanting him to have the job.
 

Debirudog

Member
It's not a purity test. People are concerned about those who backed Clinton because Clinton was responsible for the worst Democratic defeat in a generation, that handed the GOP power on a scale not seen in almost a century. That screams of bad judgement. Like, if you backed such a bad candidate now, why should we trust you to pick good candidates in the future?

You forgive and let them learn. I agree we need to replace the heads but pushing out everyone is just extreme and unforgiving for me, especially when I was for her.
 
It's not a purity test. People are concerned about those who backed Clinton because Clinton was responsible for the worst Democratic defeat in a generation, that handed the GOP power on a scale not seen in almost a century.

Did you mean a decade? Because the GOP had larger majorities after 2004.
 
Just join the green party will you. Let adults form a coalition.

Party purity will be the death of democrats.

"Clinton / Kaine 2020! It was just a fluke that we've lost all levels of government, federal, state and local including both branches of congress and a supermajority of governorships and legislatures. Let's just keep doing exactly what we did last time! That'll work! Can you believe those unrealistic, hateful sexist, racist homophobic Berniebros?!"

Ellison is the clear choice for DNC if Bernie doesn't want it.
 
Could someone explain to me what this was about?

The greatest moments of the Jerry Brown vs. the Clintons feud

Clinton people dominated the DNC for quite awhile (DWS), and the California democrat party lost influence due to the Clintons and Brown feuding for over a decade. Brown ultimately endorsed Hillary for president but tensions remained. Now that currying favor with Hillary Clinton will presumably no longer be a dominant factor at the DNC, I'd imagine Brown can have some influence.
 

kirblar

Member
It's not a purity test. People are concerned about those who backed Clinton because Clinton was responsible for the worst Democratic defeat in a generation, that handed the GOP power on a scale not seen in almost a century. That screams of bad judgement. Like, if you backed such a bad candidate now, why should we trust you to pick good candidates in the future?
I backed Obama in '08.

If given a non-Sanders alternative to Clinton I might have backed them.

Clinton losing the EC doesn't mean Sanders was a good option.
 
They are saying she needed to focus more on rural white racist voters and their concerns.

Venture outside of PoliGAF to regular OT and you will see.

If someone is struggling putting food on the table, they're not going to give a shit about people not like them. Social issues are thrown out the window. It'll be someone who speaks to them economically. The Democrats forgot this and paid a heavy price. Sure maybe a solid percentage of them is racist, but I'd bet they want to be able to work near their homes and not struggle first.
 

Trouble

Banned
I mentioned in another thread, but I think Ben Jealous would be a great pick to head up the DNC. He's young (43) and did a really good job revitalizing the NAACP when he took over at 35. He was also a Bernie endorser/supporter so he carries some cred with that coalition. Basically he's got the resume and proven track record to get the DNC whipped back into shape.
 

BanGy.nz

Banned
Ellison is fine.
Dean is fine.
They'd both be fine.

This primaries fight needs to end. Guess what? We're all losers. Bernie's coalition wasn't big enough in the primary and Hillary couldn't drive turn out in the general.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
we forgive and learn. I agree we need to replace the heads but pushing out everyone is just extreme and unforgiving for me, especially when I was for her.

I agree. I'm not arguing we literally decapitate everyone who backed Clinton - there's a post last page where I do point out Dean's qualifications. I'm just pointing out this isn't a "purity test". It is perfectly reasonable to have legitimate concerns about the reselection of anyone from the Democratic establishment when the party is at its weakest point since 1928; anyone that does get given forgiveness needs good reason. Dean probably has that reason, but it needs to be proved and not granted freely.
 
The discourse in this thread and the OT just has me hope that Bernie is extremely careful about whatever he does in 2020. Not just in not running, but in whomever he endorses.
 
we forgive and learn. I agree we need to replace the heads but pushing out everyone is just extreme and unforgiving for me, especially when I was for her.

I feel like you but if we need to burn the proverbial effigy to get a solid message for 2018, then so be it. Hillary is done, we need to move on.
 

jmood88

Member
I want the Clinton people out not because of purity reasons but because they're losers who continually fuck things up at the exact wrong times. The DNC needs new leadership asap.
 

kirblar

Member
I agree. I'm not arguing we literally decapitate everyone who backed Clinton - there's a post last page where I do point out Dean's qualifications. I'm just pointing out this isn't a "purity test". It is perfectly reasonable to have legitimate concerns about the reselection of anyone from the Democratic establishment when the party is at its weakest point since 1928; anyone that does get given forgiveness needs good reason. Dean probably has that reason, but it needs to be proved and not granted freely.
I'd argue Dean's not part of the establishment- he got railroaded out in '08.

Endorsing Clinton does not mean he was part of her inner circle, holy shit.
 
It's not a purity test. People are concerned about those who backed Clinton because Clinton was responsible for the worst Democratic defeat in a generation, that handed the GOP power on a scale not seen in almost a century. That screams of bad judgement. Like, if you backed such a bad candidate now, why should we trust you to pick good candidates in the future?
So your admitting that Sanders judgment is in question considering he made the decision to back her as well and thus we shouldn't listen to him or does he get a special escape card? He could have chosen to just take his ball and go he and remain pure, but he didn't and even campaigned and pushed for her much harder than people like Dean did.

And in the case that Sanders nonetheless gets an escape card and his judgement remains pure, why can't we give other people escape cards as well where this clearly doesn't seem to amount to anything meaningful in their cases, such as Dean? Either apply this consistently or not. Don't try to have it both ways where it only applies to the people you don't like and not the ones you do.
 
It's not a purity test. People are concerned about those who backed Clinton because Clinton was responsible for the worst Democratic defeat in a generation, that handed the GOP power on a scale not seen in almost a century. That screams of bad judgement. Like, if you backed such a bad candidate now, why should we trust you to pick good candidates in the future?
Please. Hindsight is 20/20. Democrats wanted to win. Hillary was remarkably well positioned to win in 2016 until Bernie did his stupid personal attacks on her which served as Trump ads and talking points in the general. Hillary had the necessary coalition backing her. She gave an exceptional fight to friggin Barack Obama in 2008 so of course she was considered a heavy favorite.

She was well liked. She actually had 60% approval rating before the fucking republicans made the media chase nonsense with their hearings.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
pigeon, stop being dumb. Politicians do the things they promise to do, yes, but they can also do other things they didn't promise if it doesn't contradict those promises. That's, like, politics in a nutshell.

Saying that messages need to be targeted is, like, common sense. The Democrats need to be a party of minority issues and minority rights, yes. When they campaign in minority areas, where minorities provide the crucial votes, they need to emphasize what they do for minority issues. But when they campaign in areas where minority votes are not the crucial votes, then they don't need to. That doesn't mean they're anti-minority. It doesn't even mean that, when in office, they don't implement racial justice reforms. It just means that the emphasis of the message is elsewhere. Racial justice is still in the manifesto, it's still in the party platform, but it isn't the focus of the campaign leaflets and rallies, etc.

If you think the way to winning back Wisconsin is to turn up at the rusted out remains of the old factories and start telling cranky old white men about why they need to vote Democrat because otherwise there won't be police reform, you're going to lose. We literally just tried that, that's why Clinton lost.

And if you think you're going to get racial justice without winning over Wisconsin, you're nuts. To be President, you have to win 270 votes in the electoral college. I will always vote for racial justice unconditionally. Always have, always will. But I have the basic common sense to work out that there's not enough people like you and I to win office. That requires building a coalition - you scratch my back, I scratch yours. Cranky old white guys in Wisconsin will vote for people who assist with racial justice. We know because at least some of them voted Obama. But in return, they want people who assist with the auto industry, and so on.

That's the thing about allies, and alliances. They're not unconditional. They're mutual.

Also pigeon, I'm actually genuinely interested in your response to this - sorry to come across as brusque. I think we both genuinely care about the same things, and I respect your intellect, so find it frustrating and bewildering that we don't reach the same conclusions.
 
I agree. I'm not arguing we literally decapitate everyone who backed Clinton - there's a post last page where I do point out Dean's qualifications. I'm just pointing out this isn't a "purity test". It is perfectly reasonable to have legitimate concerns about the reselection of anyone from the Democratic establishment when the party is at its weakest point since 1928; anyone that does get given forgiveness needs good reason. Dean probably has that reason, but it needs to be proved and not granted freely.

Dean had no relationship with this version of the DNC other than being a Super Delegate and backing Clinton
 

HylianTom

Banned
For people old enough, were things this bleak when Bush won? And during his presidency?

I was just a blissfully unaware kid for most of his presidency.

This is much more bleak.

We've been staring at an actual, real-life, empty SCOTUS seat for months. In 2004, the idea of an empty seat was just that - an idea.

In 2004, the liberals on the court were much younger, in much less chance of, err.., departing. Now? I don't need to provide the specific actuarial stats on an 83-year-old or an 80-year-old or a 78-year-old. The odds of all three making it four years aren't nearly as comforting.

This is bleak. If things go right, we merely lose the chance to replace a conservative or two. If things go wrong, they go very wrong, and progressivism is judicially crippled for decades.
 

Zukkoyaki

Member
Trump is a way stronger candidate than any of us imagined, my God.

I think this is moreso that Clinton was weaker than any of us imagined.

Edit: No knock against Clinton because she SHOULD be an amazing candidate but all of the bullshit just ended up being too much to overcome.
 
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