I mean for the most part those feelings aren't based on reality. For all her real faults, being a conniving, evil she-bitch is not one of them and she is still just as truthful/more truthful than your average politician. So I don't see what's you point. I wonder what Sanders "private" positions would have been if we ever saw every e-mail him and his staff ever sent (I'm going to guess that just like Clinton there would be mostly nothingburgers in there).
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PoliGAF 2016 |OT15| Orange is the New Black
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I mean for the most part those feelings aren't based on reality. For all her real faults, being a conniving, evil she-bitch is not one of them and she is still just as truthful/more truthful than your average politician. So I don't see what's you point. I wonder what Sanders "private" positions would have been if we ever saw every e-mail him and his staff ever sent (I'm going to guess that just like Clinton there would be mostly nothingburgers in there).
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
This is why 2018 is so critical. You run different reps on different platforms depending on area, and then you use those reps popularity in 2020
You know who else backed Hillary? Bernie Sanders. Maybe we should get rid of him first.
How do you kill that which has no life?
We also know they respond to charisma....and not much else, apparently.
this warms my fucking heart. Maybe she was a flawed candidate but she's a fucking good person.
Ideological purity is such a BS and "white" cause. It will take us nowhere. Those of us that live in majority Republican states and counties know what I'm talking about. Think about it guys, the democratic party drove enough, white, black and Hispanic moderates to either vote for Trump or to stay at home. While I think Bernie might've won, it's not him or someone exactly like him we need vs an incumbent Trump. We basically need a Bill Clinton-Bernie hybrid without the hard on crime stuff. Where the hell do we find that?
Seeing Trump's rumored cabinet picks has humbled me a lot. Those guys will do irreversible damage on multiple fronts. Going to get drunk tonight.
Seeing Trump's rumored cabinet picks has humbled me a lot. Those guys will do irreversible damage on multiple fronts. Going to get drunk tonight.
Don't blame the voters, blame the candidate. In 2008, Obama's plan of hope and change resonated with many white Democrats in the upper Midwest. John McCain, running on a more fiscally conservative platform, lost this demographic.
Hillary's campaign naively and arrogantly assumed these voters would remain with her. Instead of trying to match or even refute Trump's vague promises of bringing back our jobs, she took a moralistic approach. This lack of direct attention caused many white Obama voters to stay home or even vote Trump. Because these voters are white, Trump's racism did not scare them enough to vote Hillary. Had Hillary made any sincere attempt to engage with these people, she would have kept the Rust Belt and won the election.
There's no doubt that Republican fuckery played a massive role in demonizing Hillary, but her disregard for blue collar Democrats can't be defended. Try to justify why Hillary spent more time in fucking Texas after the primary than in Wisconsin.
There will be no youth in 2018. Keep thinking about 2020 when we need 2018 first.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
I literally already responded to this. After a massive thread in OT about dogpiling and a lot of people pointing out PoliGAF's tendency to do this and create a bubble chamber for themselves, you could at least go back one page and read my posts more carefully, rather than just repeating something someone else has already said AND that I've already responded to. The fact you didn't give enough of a shit to do that means I have absolutely no interest in responding to you in the future. It's just rude.
We are reading these conversations differently.
Like I said, this argument doesn't grapple with the reality of the election, where we barely lost a squeaker in three heavily white, heavily undereducated states after a very lopsided campaign.
Should we have local pitches? Sure, obviously. I'm not dumb. Should we talk about class issues? Absolutely. But we need to defend the rights of people of color. When we start omitting it from the leaflets, next election it's missing from the platform unless we stay vigilant.
(Also, we're at full employment.)
I haven't argued that. This is actually crazy! I'm still a socialist! I'm just not willing to stop talking about the right of people of color not to be shot in order to pass single-payer.
I'll say this as someone who supported sanders in the primary, you are an idiot. Dean is not a Clinton loyalist, never has been in the long history he has in politics and frequently fought with Clinton loyalists as DNC chair.
Dean endorsing Clinton for 2012 doesn't change that.
thehypocrite
Member
Then state that in your posts. We can talk about things like this instead of labeling people we have valid disagreements with. We need to learn to communicate like this, labeling people even though is easy and maybe feels good doesn't win us elections.
I also agree with you btw.
Brawly Likes to Brawl
Member
I said this hours ago and I'll say it again (albeit truncated)
Bernie himself had a problem with underestimating the importance of the minority vote and it cost him. You don't get to ignore that and then turn around and tell people with certainty that he would've reversed the results and we were stupid for not seeing that. If the far-left decides that the best course of action going forward is to do people like me dirty out of a panic from one loss, there is going to be a problem.
I'm sorry that Bernie didn't make it, I understand why he was an attractive candidate and I would've voted for him if he was the nominee, but not even Bernie himself was in any mood for the type of ride or die shit I've been seeing from some of his supporters. You can't act like this over just your first time of seeing a dream candidate fail.
excelsiorlef
Member
Indeed I wonder if I need to out my list I made of his campaign fuck ups because there were a lot.
shinra-bansho
Member
What is the Democratic candidate supposed to say to rural white people? Or other white working class.
I do care about you too.
I have policies that will help improve your lives.
They. Do. Not. Believe. You.
They don't want to believe you.
Because you are still on the side of the browns taking their jobs. And the blacks taking their societal power.
I do care about you too.
I have policies that will help improve your lives.
They. Do. Not. Believe. You.
They don't want to believe you.
Because you are still on the side of the browns taking their jobs. And the blacks taking their societal power.
metalslimer
Member
Obama really is the best of us by the way. Not missing a beat in his graciousness.
The man who delegitimized him to half the nation and will erase a lot of his legacy and he acts like it's generic republican 1
The man who delegitimized him to half the nation and will erase a lot of his legacy and he acts like it's generic republican 1
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Bill Clinton did it. Obama did it. Ask them.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
I don't understand how we're disagreeing then. The Democratic party does need to defend the rights of people of colour. It will *always* be in the platform. If it isn't, as I said, I will be at the violent protests personally - I will literally renew my visa and fly over. I'm just saying that you need to be aware who you're speaking to. The disaffected white voters in Wisconsin who voted Obama twice and then voted Trump might care about civil rights if the people who give him the auto industry talk to him about it, because he knows they're allies. It's the second message; it's the message you give to people who are already inclined to listen to you. The first message needs to be the one that gets him to listen to you in the first place. I just don't buy this slippery slope argument that if the main thing we talk about in Wisconsin is industrialization, the next day the Democrats stop caring about minority rights altogether. None of us here want that!
I don't really care who runs the DNC as long as they're effective. I agree with Borgia that Dean's success may or may not have been entirely his doing considering the climate and being the opposition party, but I wouldn't really oppose him if he can effectively do it again. As long as we correctly determine the strategy going forward and execute it competently, we'll be alright.
I strongly think that we need to be competitive locally across the country to be relevant again. One size fits all should not be our plan going into the midterms.
I strongly think that we need to be competitive locally across the country to be relevant again. One size fits all should not be our plan going into the midterms.
Joe Shlabotnik
Banned
Nope. There was of course tons of frustration over the election, and a general concern that he was a doofus who was going to screw up a perfectly good economy, but it wasn't post-9/11 (obviously). He was a former governor who didn't seem particularly sharp and was probably going to make for a lazy shitty President. Not an unstable, existential threat.
And I say that as someone who is pissed that the awfulness of his Presidency has gotten kind of papered over in the ensuing years.
Elaugaufein
Member
Short of Trump and the GOP epically imploding you're setting yourself up for disappointment if you're trying to win 2018 rather than minimise losses. The House gerrymander isn't going away and the Senate seats up favour the GOP.
You might be able to do recapture some State level stuff if you got really good turnout but that likely requires Millennial turnout.
Shao Kahn on the Lawn
Member
This might be a believable theory if Obama hadn't won twice.
Can anyone do it in a post-Trump world is the question.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Exactly! Like, this is intersectionality 101!
EDIT; and it obviously can be done. Obama did it, twice!
VendettaRed07
Member
The attacks Bernie used on her would have been used by Trump anyway. He went scorched earth and left no stone unturned. Most of Trump's mentioning of Bernie was from the DNC leaks were evidence that they rigged the election against him. Which never came from him. Lets not blame the loss on him because she was vulnerable candidate and a tough primary fight exposed too many of her weaknesses.
Hillary also provoked him to go farther than he likely would have otherwise by dumping elementary school children's blood on his hands suggesting he was responsible for mass shootings like Sandy Hook because she was desperate to find something she was to the "left" of him on.
In the future, whoever runs the DNC though should definitely outline beforehand what sort of attacks are permissable before allowing them to run so things don't get so personal again. Both 08 and 16 were too nasty, honestly.
Fragamemnon
Member
I haven't posted in this thread much but I did want to drop in and say your entire post history over the last two days is worth reading and that it's really nice to have someone drawing the line. Everyone else doesn't seem to want to internalize what it is they are actually trying to reach out to and how that comes at an impossibly high price.
(not sarcasm. Thanks!)
Hillary didn't made a successful appeal against unemployment and automation. Trump's ideas might have been too simple, but they made sense to a lot of voters in economically depressed communities.
You won't vote status quo if you think you've hit rock bottom.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
That is a good question. I imagine Trump won't give a shit about them, and they will lose more jobs because of it. Then, and only then can Dems make their way back in. If Trump somehow, beyond all belief, brings back jobs to them...
I think it may turn out that ultimately, rural whites didn't feel like they could trust Hillary or the Democrats to actually look out for their interests. I think they felt that 8 years of a Democratic (and black, no less) President didn't do anything for them, and then here comes somebody promising more of the same, AND this somebody was a woman (bad) who has been demonized in the public sphere for decades on her supposed duplicity and lack of morals. Her policies may have been better for rural whites, but they didn't feel like they had a reason to believe she'd actually do anything to help them. This was exacerbated by the attention she paid to urban centers and people outside of the rural working class white community.
Meanwhile, the other candidate was promising not only to bring change to the system, but that he would specifically work for disenfranchised rural whites above anyone else. He's an old white man (so naturally more trustworthy in their eyes), who they see as the ideal of what they want for themselves. And beyond himself, he was offering white supremacy, which I'm sure was appealing to rural whites as a political economy and a governing ideology that they could actually trust and depend on. This is why they could look past his personal failings, because they wanted his worldview more than him.
If this is right, then Dems need to focus on rebuilding that trust and getting rural white support for a worldview that can coexist with the existence and equality of minorities.
Meanwhile, the other candidate was promising not only to bring change to the system, but that he would specifically work for disenfranchised rural whites above anyone else. He's an old white man (so naturally more trustworthy in their eyes), who they see as the ideal of what they want for themselves. And beyond himself, he was offering white supremacy, which I'm sure was appealing to rural whites as a political economy and a governing ideology that they could actually trust and depend on. This is why they could look past his personal failings, because they wanted his worldview more than him.
If this is right, then Dems need to focus on rebuilding that trust and getting rural white support for a worldview that can coexist with the existence and equality of minorities.
metalslimer
Member
I think the scary thought is that what if the voters may have voted for Obama to try something different but what they really wanted was minorities to be scapegoated and Trump finally spoke to that.
If that's the case there is no winning them back.
Thats the worst argument against Dean. We are literally going back to minority opposition. But this time the majority hates the prez. If we are going back to the position we were 2000, lets go with the guy that succeeded during that time.
So, the first Black president and the first ACTUAL black president?
shinra-bansho
Member
The left reviles the triangulation of the Clinton presidency.
Obama turned out unprecedented levels of fairweather voters. And people who would probably recoil at 90s triangulation.
Maybe the Democrats can run the first black President again. Oh wait.
Exactly.
I can already hear the Bernie folks yelling "rigged."
I would rather try and be disappointed that give up. You have no idea what the mood of the country will be after 2 years of Trump. We should be ready instead of getting caught with our pants down.
Yep. It's pointless to try going after those voters if what you are saying is true.
shinra-bansho
Member
Obama could drive minority turnout without talking about minorities too much and putting off fragile white people.
Androidsleeps
Member
I keep thinking about Trump meeting foreign leaders...
Merkel..Trudeau...Queen of England...
FUCK.
Merkel..Trudeau...Queen of England...
FUCK.
metalslimer
Member
You know Clinton deserves a lot of blame here, but it's amazing how (anecdotally) I've seen more rage directed at her than the people who actually voted him in.
balladofwindfishes
Member
This attitude is why we keep losing elections.
Charisma. Because people "want to believe".
I live in a very rural, white, working class district. In 2012 (so also a pres. year), the republican House candidate won by ~1% of the vote.
This year, there was a much stronger Dem challenger, who had more money, more ads, more presence, a stronger argument than the 2012 Dem. He lost by 15%. 4 years later.
This is madness. I don't know any way to possibly fight this.
edit: clarified I'm talking about a house of reps race here
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
I've never argued, even once, Dean was a Clinton loyalist. I even just had a post a few pages back saying I thought he was a promising choice. Why is it people don't seem to actually read my posts properly? I'm at a loss as to what I can actually do at this point. I'm simultaneously painted as someone obsessed with purity tests and someone who is too willing to compromise on Democratic principles. I can't possibly be both, pick your poison!
eBay Huckster
Member
I might be setting myself up for disappointment
but at least I'll be able to say I tried
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
That's sadly how I see it too.
Obama wasn't running up against an economic populist.
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