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PoliGAF 2016 |OT15| Orange is the New Black
- Thread starter Y2Kev
- Start date
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Oh, she's going to be the evil villain for the rest of her life now. Republicans still hate her, and now the liberals will hate her too. Regardless of any mistakes of this campaign, she would have been a great president and really proven herself. Aside from all the obvious nightmares the Trump presidency is going to unleash, I feel so so so so bad for her and her place in history being cemented like this.
I thought I was on the last page when I responded, but ok. Keep acting like a victim if it helps you feel better
Sexism and white innocence are powerful.
Sorry, I confused you for someone else then.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Well, yeah, obviously! It was her job to persuade them! That's the whole point of being a politician, to persuade people of your values and why they're the right ones. When you start blaming voters for not finding politicians sufficiently appealing, you have your democracy back to front. What's the point getting angry at them? We need them on our side, like they were in 2012, again in 2016! That's just a truth.
They will drive themselves off a cliff again.
Bush '02/'04 was an aberration due to 9/11.
Fine, get weed legalization on more ballots.
Shao Kahn on the Lawn
Member
Keep demonizing the WWC and reducing all of their distress to racism/sexism and you can be sure the Democrats will never win an election again, Presidential or otherwise.
Because Trump didn't get very many votes! Depressed Democratic turnout, especially in battleground states, made him president.
thehypocrite
Member
I agree that those people hold those positions regardless of merit, but you need some of them to vote for you, this is what separates a viable candidate from the also ran. I'm just trying to tell you that facts and values aren't the same for everybody, The way they perform this cognitive process is different, that's why we need to listen to them regardless in all the ways they inform us of their values and worldview.
I believe that. That's why politics requires building compromise for effective progress. I, like you dislike the fact that minorities must always compromise cause the others are invested with privilege that will allow them to be somewhat fine no matter what. The DNC needs to be better for us minorities as well. But this compromise requires a mixture of policy and identity. Hillary gave Bernie supporters policy but no figure or message. Trump gave his voters figure, message and no clear policy.
I think this depends on context a lot. The right candidate can communicate with the potential voters effectively and they'll believe her/him. They did for Obama, they did for Trump, they believe in Bernie enough to allow a socialist be competitive in a major party primary. So I think your conclusion is not accurate.
Obama more or less ran on the platform that racism was over.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_More_Perfect_Union_(speech)
Here's the speech he gave where he came out against his own pastor for being too angry as a black man.
Obama never talked about race. He never linked race to other injustices. Whenever he talked to black communities he told them to fix their culture. The very few times he made any suggestion that racism might be an issue, he faced huge backlash. Remember the time he had to invite a police officer to the White House because the cop arrested a black man on his own porch and Obama said he could see that happening to him?
If you ask any black person, they will tell you all of this.
Many of them will also tell you that they understood why Obama did it -- because a black man, talking openly and honestly about the institutionalized racism in America, would lose every election he contested.
Hillary got up on her hind legs and actually talked about that institutionalized racism, because Obama wasn't able to fix it during his tenure, because it would have required talking about race. That's why Obama deported so many people of color in the last eight years, why it took him seven years to start writing pardons, why he never moved an inch on marijuana or criminal justice reform.
That's the difference between them. Hillary wanted to actually do something about racism.
I really mean whoever supports the inevitable primary loser. Having rules on what kinds of attacks can be used will only reinforce some idea of stacking the deck in the favor of the ultimate winner.
So, I need to post about this, even if it's just to set the storm of thoughts in my head aside and move on with my day. Most of this is not fully formed, but that's how things are with regards to any loss of this magnitude. There is a meaningful grieving process, and a lot of frustration which needs to be let out.
My main thought is that it's way, way, way too easy to believe in the need for an over-correction right now. It's important not to lose track of how close this was. And the fact that in being close, that enables a lot of "just one thing" comments to be true. So, political espionage, misogyny, campaign incompetence, the failure of messaging, the failure of the press, the lack of a primary, the voting rights act, the activation of racism in the panhandle, cyclical, third term complacency, "Trump can't win" complacency, and certainly more. One should not lose sight of the fact Trump lacks even a plurality.
My second thought is, this is familiar, if unexpected and horrifying, ground to be on. The modern left in a big way came about in opposition to Bush. Activists used to fighting on this ground will be game to step up. Anecdotal, obviously, but my facebook feed is full of liberals feeling ready to stand up. The party needs to find it's way forward, but in a meaningful sense it already knows its mission.
Third thought is, it's too easy to believe in White Knights. Like, I want to say that a Biden-Warren ticket would have been amazing. And maybe that's true! But, I also think pinning all of the problems on the ticket is dismissive to more of the fundamental failures of democracy we faced in 2016, including the press but particular noting the many aspects of political espionage. I also think that Sanders fans, while making a lot of important points that Hillary fans need to listen to, need to do a better job of owning the weaknesses of their own candidate and movement. Sanders ignored international policy while running for president, and ignored intersectionality while trying to be a democrat. His campaign was fucking amateur hour. This isn't a story about some amazing hero who was failed by the establishment. Bernie lost for a reason.
Fourth thought. The biggest problem of all? The lack of a competitive primary. It's not a coincidence that 2016 ended with the same disappointment of 2000. Neither election meaningfully vetted the candidate because they were the heirs, and both candidates lost with enthusiasm gaps against clowns who had no business being let anywhere near the white house. One thing the primary does is identify enthusiam, and vet communication skills in an applied way. But this point is the democrats had a credibility and communication problem because that part wasn't Hillary's wheelhouse. And it's an important part of the job.
Fifth thought. I am deeply torn between my overt hatred for everyone who chose to stand in support of racism, and my desire to win overwhelmingly in four years. I don't want to in any way empower or encourage what just happened. There is no whitewashing the fact the 47.5% of Americans chose to support overt racism. Nothing excuses this. Absolutely nothing. It should never be called anything else than what it is. A minority of the country that happens to be conveniently distributed does not deserve nor should they get special treatment for choosing to treat the rest of the country like garbage. And yet, we need more rust belt vote in 2016.
The way forward actually seems obvious. Democrats need to marry the Obama coalition, which still represents a majority of the country, to a more credible messenger for economic progressivism. Ellison would be great, Dean would be great. I think people are overselling Dean right now a bit because his success was a product of having a favorable late-Bush window. But I think both are great
Ultimately I do not believe this was platform problem, but Hillary wasn't the right messenger for her platform. It is deeply sad that the apoplectic insanity of the GOP is rewarded and that the espionage was effective but it is where we are.
TBH I am still trying to put my life back together because yesterday was so shattering. I am encouraged by people I've seen on facebook ready to stand up and fight, and from the call to arms we've seen from the ACLU, SPLC, Propublica, others. It was encouraging to see people taking to the streets yesterday, even if just as a sign of solidarity and passion. The next four years will be a pitched, ugly batter against an incredible amount of cruelty that is already showing its face, before Trump even takes office.
Keep venting, GAF. Seriously. Everything that is being said in this thread is important. But also make a point not to lose focus on your day to day lives. Tell your loved ones what they mean to you. Think about what steps you can take to stand up to hate. Talk to your friends. Commit to voting in 2018 and 2020. Keep fighting for social and economic justice. Organize and volunteer. Support the ACLU and Southern Poverty Law Center. I mean, maybe that's a little after school special-y, but whatever. I think the party (and the thread) needs a little bit of that. Right now it is so important that we remember who our allies are, because out enemies are are feeling quite happy and bold at the moment.
My main thought is that it's way, way, way too easy to believe in the need for an over-correction right now. It's important not to lose track of how close this was. And the fact that in being close, that enables a lot of "just one thing" comments to be true. So, political espionage, misogyny, campaign incompetence, the failure of messaging, the failure of the press, the lack of a primary, the voting rights act, the activation of racism in the panhandle, cyclical, third term complacency, "Trump can't win" complacency, and certainly more. One should not lose sight of the fact Trump lacks even a plurality.
My second thought is, this is familiar, if unexpected and horrifying, ground to be on. The modern left in a big way came about in opposition to Bush. Activists used to fighting on this ground will be game to step up. Anecdotal, obviously, but my facebook feed is full of liberals feeling ready to stand up. The party needs to find it's way forward, but in a meaningful sense it already knows its mission.
Third thought is, it's too easy to believe in White Knights. Like, I want to say that a Biden-Warren ticket would have been amazing. And maybe that's true! But, I also think pinning all of the problems on the ticket is dismissive to more of the fundamental failures of democracy we faced in 2016, including the press but particular noting the many aspects of political espionage. I also think that Sanders fans, while making a lot of important points that Hillary fans need to listen to, need to do a better job of owning the weaknesses of their own candidate and movement. Sanders ignored international policy while running for president, and ignored intersectionality while trying to be a democrat. His campaign was fucking amateur hour. This isn't a story about some amazing hero who was failed by the establishment. Bernie lost for a reason.
Fourth thought. The biggest problem of all? The lack of a competitive primary. It's not a coincidence that 2016 ended with the same disappointment of 2000. Neither election meaningfully vetted the candidate because they were the heirs, and both candidates lost with enthusiasm gaps against clowns who had no business being let anywhere near the white house. One thing the primary does is identify enthusiam, and vet communication skills in an applied way. But this point is the democrats had a credibility and communication problem because that part wasn't Hillary's wheelhouse. And it's an important part of the job.
Fifth thought. I am deeply torn between my overt hatred for everyone who chose to stand in support of racism, and my desire to win overwhelmingly in four years. I don't want to in any way empower or encourage what just happened. There is no whitewashing the fact the 47.5% of Americans chose to support overt racism. Nothing excuses this. Absolutely nothing. It should never be called anything else than what it is. A minority of the country that happens to be conveniently distributed does not deserve nor should they get special treatment for choosing to treat the rest of the country like garbage. And yet, we need more rust belt vote in 2016.
The way forward actually seems obvious. Democrats need to marry the Obama coalition, which still represents a majority of the country, to a more credible messenger for economic progressivism. Ellison would be great, Dean would be great. I think people are overselling Dean right now a bit because his success was a product of having a favorable late-Bush window. But I think both are great
Ultimately I do not believe this was platform problem, but Hillary wasn't the right messenger for her platform. It is deeply sad that the apoplectic insanity of the GOP is rewarded and that the espionage was effective but it is where we are.
TBH I am still trying to put my life back together because yesterday was so shattering. I am encouraged by people I've seen on facebook ready to stand up and fight, and from the call to arms we've seen from the ACLU, SPLC, Propublica, others. It was encouraging to see people taking to the streets yesterday, even if just as a sign of solidarity and passion. The next four years will be a pitched, ugly batter against an incredible amount of cruelty that is already showing its face, before Trump even takes office.
Keep venting, GAF. Seriously. Everything that is being said in this thread is important. But also make a point not to lose focus on your day to day lives. Tell your loved ones what they mean to you. Think about what steps you can take to stand up to hate. Talk to your friends. Commit to voting in 2018 and 2020. Keep fighting for social and economic justice. Organize and volunteer. Support the ACLU and Southern Poverty Law Center. I mean, maybe that's a little after school special-y, but whatever. I think the party (and the thread) needs a little bit of that. Right now it is so important that we remember who our allies are, because out enemies are are feeling quite happy and bold at the moment.
I'm curious to see if the republicans get really unlucky and are only able to hold the presidency for four years right now.
metalslimer
Member
Its not really that they didn't find her appealing. I'm perfectly fine with her approval ratings being shit. Its that they cared so little about minorities they either stayed home or voted for him. Im happy you can forgive them but as someone whose probably going to be on the awful end of some his policies I have a hard time doing so.
they're all gonna try their best to just smile and bear with it. Jesus...
Another way to put this is that the Republican voters saw no difference between Mitt Romney, John McCain, and the worst candidate ever to run for office in America.
They deserve the blame.
I believed that many Republican voters would recoil in disgust rather than vote for an explicit, outspoken white nationalist, because I believed that the majority of white Americans wanted to not be racist.
Lesson learned.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Yeah it's..
...it'd be nice if Dems could just appeal to minorities and win elections. But the majority of this country is still majorly made up of white people. Around 63%? Hispanics make up the 2nd biggest size group(16%?). But you can't appeal to just minorities and expect to win.
That's what it felt like. HRC was appealing to just minorities. And it hurt turnout. Some Obama voters from 08/12 turned to Trump instead in areas where he was strong previously.
And when you focus on mainly the minority, the truth is sooner or later the majority is going to lash back. In this case, we get Trump.
HRC ran a noble campaign in the sense that it focused on minorities, focused on Trumps comments against said minorities, but that didn't win it for her. And to some peoples chagrin, the truth is she needed to appeal to white voters a bit more in some of those states she lost.
Actually, Crab, the superdelegates don't vote until the convention.
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
Obama was also running after a total disaster of a President.
Because Trump didn't get very many votes! Depressed Democratic turnout, especially in battleground states, made him president.
Missing millions of votes and 3rd parties.
Also missing Gore and Kerry.
Because there is no difference between their message except for pitch. The dog whistle conveyed the same message to the GOP base, they just like Trump only saying it better.
shinra-bansho
Member
So you're saying Obama would have lost too then. I don't follow. Obama is a pragmatic liberal. He isn't a populist. He's the last bastion of the TPP for crying out loud.
What should one do instead? Praise them for voting in a bigot? I acknowledge the issues facing the Rust Belt and rural America. For which there are no easy answers. No pithy lines that can stand up to Build The Wall.
And the people who think that there are. That you can rely on having the perfect candidate for a given moment. And get these people back. Are completely deluding themselves.
Trump addressed specific economic problems that in ways any other Republican would not. This canceled-out his inexperience and instability. Because white Americans are broadly not as empathetic as they should be, his racism wasn't enough to sink him.
Obama certainly might have lost to Trump. McCain and Romney were very different Republicans, who lots of voters saw as more similar to Hillary than to Trump.
This isn't true. Trump outpaced Romney in literally every swing state he won in. This isn't a story about turnout, Trump actually did something here.
It's like I said on the last page, it seems they largely decided that racism was a better bet for their survival than non-racism. Don't know how you undo that.
Officerrob
Banned
Easy, just lie and say all those factory jobs will come back
I think there's an argument that nominating a PoC is a net positive for the Dems precisely because of this, and that they should be doing it when possible going forward.
False narrative.
The missing Dem vote didn't go to Trump. We couldn't motivate our own base.
I think it's way too early to make any use of the data in this election. All we know was we were killed by voter apathy.
The next four years decide the plan of attack. We will have to offer a clear and --easy-- response to Trump. We can't select another Kerry or Clinton.
The next four years decide the plan of attack. We will have to offer a clear and --easy-- response to Trump. We can't select another Kerry or Clinton.
metalslimer
Member
I feel bad even feeling like we need to stoop to their level but yeah just lie and blame the Republicans and lie some more about why the factory jobs aren't coming back. If it's about how we speak to people and not about actual policy there is no way to win these people without lying our ass off.
Please stop using that image pre California vote
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Right, I agree. I don't dispute, well, any of this at all. I just have two questions: 1) did Obama win? and 2) did Obama improve, even at a very low level, the plight of the black American community? I think the answer to both of those is Yes. And so it seems obvious to me that this means Obama was more of a triumph for minorities than Clinton, because she failed 1 and that means she *definitely* failed 2 because if she doesn't win, she can't possibly do anything for anyone.
False narrative.
The missing Dem vote didn't go to Trump. We couldn't motivate our own base.
This chart is incomplete and misleading. Turnout wasn't the problem, the missing dem vote DID go to Trump.
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
Seriously, much is based on what would likely be useless exit polling, or incomplete vote counts.
excelsiorlef
Member
The minority democratic base does
shinra-bansho
Member
Not sure I follow. I've already said how crap liberals are for needing magical Obamas every time to actually vote.False narrative.
The missing Dem vote didn't go to Trump. We couldn't motivate our own base.
Also Trump outperformed in places it mattered again not shown in vote totals with his Make America White Again new electorate.
neurosisxeno
Member
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Km4R377s4M
We can blame President Obama and Seth Meyers for this past week.
We can blame President Obama and Seth Meyers for this past week.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
False narrative.
The missing Dem vote didn't go to Trump. We couldn't motivate our own base.
That's the worst part. Both candidates got less votes than Obama and Romney in 2012. Less people voted for Trump than they did Romney. Hillary got massively less votes than Obama. Both candidates fucking sucked. And I bet alot of people decided to not vote because of these two bad candidates.
Edit-And Nate Cohn says HIllary lost voters to Trump.
Who are these voters? Not the minority. Therefore we can say white people. But which white people? Probably from the 'firewall' states she lost. PA, WI, MI. You know, the rust belt white people who felt ignored by her? Maybe.
TheAbsolution
Member
I just had a large conversation with some far left people and they talked about revolutions. Could that happen? Like seriously? 
Short answer: noI just had a large conversation with some far left people and they talked about revolutions. Could that happen? Like seriously?
Long answer: hahahahhahahahhahahahahahahhahahahahhaha
Trump outpaced Romney where it mattered: The swing states. Turnout was actually higher in Florida/Pen than it was in 2012. Trump didn't win because of apathy, he won because people wanted him.
EDIT: Yes, it was the white voters. Trump got them to turn out for him like minorities usually do in the states that mattered.
Officerrob
Banned
I just had a large conversation with some far left people and they talked about revolutions. Could that happen? Like seriously?
The only "revolution" that will be tried is that of the Democratic party
I just had a large conversation with some far left people and they talked about revolutions. Could that happen? Like seriously?
They have a right to be outraged. Hopefully in manifests in a tea party like back lash for the dems (minus the crazy).
They've been talking like that for a century.I just had a large conversation with some far left people and they talked about revolutions. Could that happen? Like seriously?
This is MR. ROBOT S1. People are not going to like S2. I now understand the season's backlash more.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
I just had a large conversation with some far left people and they talked about revolutions. Could that happen? Like seriously?
I mean
I don't condone it. But we are in a position where we're staring into the Lions mouth. Are we going to let ourselves be swallowed so easily? Because if people don't fight back, there will be deaths. There will be suffering.
Shao Kahn on the Lawn
Member
The Democratic party can simultaneously decry the scourge of civil rights abuses and inequality while acknowledging that rural areas, white or otherwise, have basically been left to rot by both parties after having borne the fruits of the industrial economy for most of their lives.
Globalization needed to happen for our economy to advance into what it is, but globalization has victims. Low-skill workers with minimal education have seen their communities shrivel up to nothing. They elected a man who promised to burn the establishment to the ground after asking "What about us?" for decades and never getting a serious answer.
GoldenEye 007
Member
Well after 20 years of neglect, what would you expect? That being said, they believed Obama in 2008 and 2012 even if that support fell off a bit.
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