Also, I'm on the road, but later I will see if I can still find Hillary's plan for helping white communities and paying for it with a tax on rich people.
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PoliGAF 2016 |OT15| Orange is the New Black
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Also, I'm on the road, but later I will see if I can still find Hillary's plan for helping white communities and paying for it with a tax on rich people.
Didn't work.
Dubbedinenglish
Banned
#I'mWithStooge
Ground. Game.
My local D challenger for Rep just lost by less than a 100 votes.
I was getting far more mailers from her opponent, saw more ads from her opponent, and outside the polling place, there were only Comstock/Trump signs. I had a bad feeling about the local race and it got proven right.
GoldenEye 007
Member
Trump ran on the corrupt elites. He called out Washington and Wall St as a central message. And they believed him. Even though he's a corrupt elite himself who started with a silver spoon. But either way, they were willing to send a message to rich elites. Remember, Wall St wrecked their retirement accounts.
Browns? Make the scapegoats robotics/technology. Companies won't hire humans as much anyway in manufacturing except in advanced manufacturing, which requires a fraction of the workforce. Car automation will be able to give credibility because in the near future there will be hundreds of thousands unemployed truck drivers.
Offer more infrastructure/vocation. That's going to be last industry that will require a mass amount of human labor outside of service. And even service is starting to crack a bit under automation.
thehypocrite
Member
I like this attitude.
You're a mod. Just delete your old posts before anybody calls you on it. That's fine, right? Nobody ever got in trouble doing that, right?
shinra-bansho
Member
Because he was Obama. A "safe" "clean" black person who didn't talk about black people and lied to them about bringing jobs back even though he was a centrist pragmatist on trade.
So I guess replicate that. Problem solved.
neurosisxeno
Member
I agree with most of this but I'll speak to the bolded:
- The DNC system could have prevented a Trump. We all assumed Trump was a bad thing since he so thoroughly disgusted us and had no policy. We were working under the assumption that decent and policy mattered
- Like I agree that you don't need to mention stuff like BLM in the middle of Wisconson but you can't backburner social issues when talking on the national stage. You will turn off minorities and millennials. A minority that connects to the WWC may be a good route to go because as others have said, being a minority at least gives them some credibility with that group that may make pushing more on the WWC more palatable to others
I'm not saying ignore the issues, but what you talk about in WI should be different than what you talk about in Baltimore.
Not saying I'd win or come close, but we have to contest these districts.
Can't agree with this. Automation is the key to our future. But we need to start getting people to understand that the reason it's bad is because capitalists privately control it.
At least, that's what I'd prefer, but I know they won't go with that.
balladofwindfishes
Member
I've often considered getting into politics, but I'm much too shy and sometimes I'm bad at talking and I have a slight stutter. I also think I remember facts and historical things and proclaim them, but they're not really true because I didn't remember them right.
I also have almost no ability to remember names. At all. I can barely remember my co-workers names who I've worked with for years and if I take a week off, I often need to refresh myself on what their names are.
I also have almost no ability to remember names. At all. I can barely remember my co-workers names who I've worked with for years and if I take a week off, I often need to refresh myself on what their names are.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
A plan ain't mean shit if you don't tell people about. If I were the average American who barely follows politics 'cause I got to work my 9 to 5 and I'm so tired when I get back I don't have time for that shit, all I know about Clinton is that she had tonnes of email problems and that she really thought Trump was a bad man.
If you go back to PoliGAF during the first debate, I remarked several times how worried I was that Clinton was *never* putting forward her own plans, she was only telling people how bad Trump was. This was the same debate everyone else was putting as a straightforward knockout.
ShironRedshift
Member
Because he's black. To use him as a shield, so people can't call them racist and because he's "one of the good ones" according to them. Essentially, the "I have a black friend" argument. Based on your posts and those of others who posit this idea and defense, mission accomplished.
GoldenEye 007
Member
Well scapegoats in that companies are moving towards that and that is the reason jobs aren't coming back and offering a way to work within that reality. Mention that capitalism/free market is the reason for it - no way to compete with the costs of robots versus a salary. I agree that automation is the future and there is no way to avoid it.
That's why I figure you throw in Obama deporting the most by far to show that Obama actually was tough on the border. At least tougher than the notion that he just opened the flood gates.
old manatee
Banned
I'm sure she has some great talking points on her website that you can refer us to, but it doesn't really mean much since she didn't actually bother to physically go to the places that needed to hear it.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
I don't even know how to explain things to you if you think that people who are racist first and foremost nevertheless voted for Obama over McCain just so they could have an excuse for their racism. Like, reread what you just posted, stop, and have a really good hard think about it, seriously. I know emotions are running high and this is pretty soon after the event, but even so.
Only 18% of the country wanted someone more liberal than Obama.
Code:
[IMG]https://s21.postimg.org/ti963e7tz/OBAMAPLCY.png[/IMG]From exit polls
balladofwindfishes
Member
We need to make sure Trump doesn't control the narrative in 2020. He's really good at it. The media doesn't help, either
But we can do it. We just need strategies and the right people.
But we can do it. We just need strategies and the right people.
Shao Kahn on the Lawn
Member
Interesting. I didn't know the X-Men were real but I'm happy to meet you, Professor X.
Elaugaufein
Member
This by the way is a reason I like having people in my left around even if I don't agree with them on everything.
The American perception of Far Right vs Far Left is seriously messed up in part because the Far Right happily carry on on the national stage with at least implicit establishment support because it makes Ryan and Kasich look like moderates whereas the left was iffy about the most right wing universal health care in the western world.
So it goes back to Hillary should have discussed policy more.
If all of these Lefties cared enough to revolt they'd have cared enough to VOTE.I just had a large conversation with some far left people and they talked about revolutions. Could that happen? Like seriously?
Crabbu, literally 60% of people thought it was a knockout. I really think comey actually sank her!
shinra-bansho
Member
So... umm. What will your worker owned company or economy as a whole really do with automation and productivity improvement differently? Limit it's use and development and improvement to retain old economy jobs elevating costs for everyone else?
Officerrob
Banned
Go get 'em
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Not policy, per se, like not policy wonkishness. Most people don't have the time or energy for that, they have to fit in politics between the rest of their life. Something like: the values that inform policy. Broad outlines. What Sanders did - pick a very simple, easily relatable value and hammer it home so that absolutely everyone knows what you stand for. Trump did it too - Make America Great Again was at core about bringing the jobs back. Obama did it too - Hope and Yes We Can were at core about managing to break free of the old system. Clinton couldn't do it. I'm reminded of that NYT article that said Clinton paid political consultants to come up with 84 different political slogans before she settled on ImWithHer, an appallingly bad choice, and then she spent most of the rest of the campaign focused on negative definition of her opponent rather than positive definition of herself. She'd needed a messaging that said: I'm bringing jobs/I'm bringing a future.
Posting here cause I don't think it's thread worthy:
Just wanted to kinda pitch my experience and discussions I've had that seem to be reinforced by a lot of what people are saying in here. I live in Texas pretty damn close to the Dallas/Ft.Worth metroplex (Plano) and go to college at UTD for reference. I voted Hillary but that's not what this is about.
I didn't ask but my dad either voted or just supported Trump (I think he just hates the 'system' enough to not care about voting). He lived through the rise and fall of communist Russia and left to raise a family in the US pretty much right around the fall (~1993). And thus he's pretty jaded about "helping others". My parents have kinda racist attitudes, not overtly so, but it's something my sister and I bicker at them about. And I'm just kinda posting this cause it's not a perspective I really associate or interact with a lot. Family is super apolitical and a-religious(?). The former is not brought up a lot and the latter is never brought up. But we talked a good bit yesterday and I found it intriguing how disinterested he is with actual progressive movements. In part it's apathy and not wanting to create conflict (thinks it's not right to rebel against police practices and that in general they have the power and you have to respect it). Another part is simply very rand-ian "fuck yours, got mine" sorta mentality where they think for themselves and supporting themselves more than the general good of the community.
But what really got me was when I was talking about voting for Hillary/democrats because they actually represent progressive movements and better of people in general and my parents just brushed it off. "They're pretending for votes" basically. I guess that's just a really weird, jaded, but understandable perspective they have. It's very deeply negative feelings towards 'the establishment' and a lot of it comes from living through Soviet Russia. They don't care for anything that represents to them our status quo and think it's all corrupt.
I'm not a person to go scorched earth on them but we sort of agree to disagree on that. Dad says it's a "I'll never change your mind, you'll never change mine" sort of thing and I tend to agree.
Dunno, just felt like I wanted to type that out. I think that a huge portion (the main portion) to Trump's success is simply voters were looking towards themselves and the economics that would affect them more forwardly than potentially nebulous progressive rights.
Just wanted to kinda pitch my experience and discussions I've had that seem to be reinforced by a lot of what people are saying in here. I live in Texas pretty damn close to the Dallas/Ft.Worth metroplex (Plano) and go to college at UTD for reference. I voted Hillary but that's not what this is about.
I didn't ask but my dad either voted or just supported Trump (I think he just hates the 'system' enough to not care about voting). He lived through the rise and fall of communist Russia and left to raise a family in the US pretty much right around the fall (~1993). And thus he's pretty jaded about "helping others". My parents have kinda racist attitudes, not overtly so, but it's something my sister and I bicker at them about. And I'm just kinda posting this cause it's not a perspective I really associate or interact with a lot. Family is super apolitical and a-religious(?). The former is not brought up a lot and the latter is never brought up. But we talked a good bit yesterday and I found it intriguing how disinterested he is with actual progressive movements. In part it's apathy and not wanting to create conflict (thinks it's not right to rebel against police practices and that in general they have the power and you have to respect it). Another part is simply very rand-ian "fuck yours, got mine" sorta mentality where they think for themselves and supporting themselves more than the general good of the community.
But what really got me was when I was talking about voting for Hillary/democrats because they actually represent progressive movements and better of people in general and my parents just brushed it off. "They're pretending for votes" basically. I guess that's just a really weird, jaded, but understandable perspective they have. It's very deeply negative feelings towards 'the establishment' and a lot of it comes from living through Soviet Russia. They don't care for anything that represents to them our status quo and think it's all corrupt.
I'm not a person to go scorched earth on them but we sort of agree to disagree on that. Dad says it's a "I'll never change your mind, you'll never change mine" sort of thing and I tend to agree.
Dunno, just felt like I wanted to type that out. I think that a huge portion (the main portion) to Trump's success is simply voters were looking towards themselves and the economics that would affect them more forwardly than potentially nebulous progressive rights.
GoldenEye 007
Member
Yes, she definitely should have at least visited Wisconsin once or twice during the general election campaign. And rural places in other rust belt states and just sat down first and listen, then understand, ask what they needed, then offered something to help. The fact she basically didn't even go at all is a problem.
Messaging, sure.
shinra-bansho
Member
This is actually kind of bizarre. This isn't on Crab. But the array of messages. Be more charismatic. Policy doesn't matter. But discuss it more. But only for white people. And still get black people out there.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Don't get me wrong, I think a slightly differently run Clinton campaign still wins. Like, it wasn't irredeemable. But even that slightly differently run Clinton campaign would have been a 3 point win over Trump at best. I don't want a 3 point win over Trump; if that's all we can do we're in a sorry, sorry state regardless.
Officerrob
Banned
Baltimore protest just got ugly, I saw a cop tackle someone against the front of a car
ItWasMeantToBe19
Banned
The best case scenario is that Ryan passes his horrible budget and Trump robs the government of billions of dollars and that manages to convince the WWC people that went from Obama to Trump to realize that they were conned and that the cost of white supremacy is too high.
The worst case is that Trump turns the U.S. into China or Russia, but we'll see!
The worst case is that Trump turns the U.S. into China or Russia, but we'll see!
"It's not about what you say about the issues, it's what the issues say about you"
Clinton needed a elevator pitch for why she was running for president and did not have one. #StrongerTogether doesn't cut it
She's a nerd and cares about everything and I love her for it but this is an important part of the job.
I say this as someone who doesn't believe dogpiling Clinton is either healthy or a useful summary of the election. But this is an important piece. It's why a competitive primary is healthy
Officerrob
Banned
Hillary didn't need to talk about policy more, she needed more catchy slogans said with charisma (among many other things)
This is a strawman, and it really seems like this is because we're still in the Hillary did no wrong, white people are at fault mode. So any justification is brought up to support this view.
Bill Clinton can talk policy with charisma. If a candidate can't they don't belong at the top of the ticket.
Elaugaufein
Member
You can use automation to decrease work hours per worker rather than worker count. Essentially raise $/hr work and reduce work hours instead of lowering price.
This ain't going to work in a world like we have though and spaghum is aware of that.
If Donald Trump can win the presidency anything is possible. Like I kind of believe in magic and the Browns winning the Super Bowl in my lifetime now
Do it!
I'm not sure what's hard to understand.
Hillary Clinton believed the Rust Belt would stay blue because Obama won that region pretty soundly. She undeniably neglected Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania and didn't run on a platform that appealed to white Democrats in those states.
Obama ran on a similar economic platform, but in 2008 and 2012 his solutions were perceived as better than the austerity of the alternative. Hillary offered a neoliberal status quo that was less attractive than Trump's populist protectionism.
hipsterpants
Member
I think nothing enrages me more post-election than the "we need to come together under trump" or "we need to respect trump supporters' votes and not attack them" or whatever the fuck. I wonder what these worthless enables would say if confronted by one of the numerous people that has been abused by an enabled Trump supporter or some poor child that is now terrified for his or her well-being because that man is elected into power. Fuck me it makes me so angry, almost angrier than the actual reports of abuse I see on Twitter. These people are literally worthless.
Officerrob
Banned
I'm in the Hillary did plenty wrong, yet white people still hold fault for being OK with voting for a bigot camp
balladofwindfishes
Member
What does Trump do with his assets and how does he avoid conflict of interest charges?
If his kids take over the business, how does he not talk to them about it and not be influenced by them? It's basically impossible for him to not have a conflict of interest.
If his kids take over the business, how does he not talk to them about it and not be influenced by them? It's basically impossible for him to not have a conflict of interest.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
I don't actually agree with the charisma people. I think charisma is often something people come up with after the fact to explain the result. It's too often confused with good messaging. Someone who messages well seems like someone who understands people well and that gets labelled charisma. Trump is an absolute monster. He has absolutely no charisma whatsoever - almost everyone who has ever actually met him hates him or is disgusted by him. But we say he has charisma because he connected with people because his message had resonance, and because we didn't understand that, we had no choice but to call it charisma, because what else could it have been?
It's why I think people suggesting Clooney runs are fucking nuts and have literally no understanding of what happened.
i honestly think people like personality over policy.
The important thing in the shorter term would be workplace democracy, and since the workers would control the means of production they can use automation to reduce their labor time while reaping the benefits. I'd be A-OK with a fully automated, super AI dominated economy where a democratic state directs production in the long term but that's a ways off and more hypothetical, not to mention fraught with risks.
I know Crab has been talking about people needing to feel the dignity of work, but a switch to socialism anyway would require a cultural change in our perception of labor so that people don't feel like they need to have work to be a valuable human. And that's more down the line.
- If Rudy becomes AG might have to throw myself out the nearest window. A LOT of people like me are going to get shot
- Also I'm not feeling this Oregon Senator talking about "let's not be obstructionist". It does hurt America but also its.......Trump........
- As an aside, can we ban the word "neo-liberal"? It is meaningless.
I'm not convinced the results of this election bore this out. Lots of super-left liberals lost. People who vote for Trump were totally ok with White Nationalism and right-wing economic policy (we are getting the Ryan budget whether we like it or not). "Anti-Establishment" seems to have won the day over everything else (even though Trump cabinet will be filled with the establishment).
I'm fine with Sanders and Warren playing a bigger role but that's with the understanding he understands that "purity" will be a bad thing. Gabbard just seems like a person super-lefties like because she backed Sanders and not because she'd be actually good. Similar to Nina Turner :/
Oh I agree the topic of discussion should change depending on if you're in Wisconsin or Maryland but there are times when you are going to have to talk on the national stage. Things have changed. If, on the national stage, you never bring up BLM, Black people are going to be understandably upset.
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