Support NeoGAF

[Man w/ Glasses]

A random aside, but it looks like Glenn Beck's becoming self-aware regarding his hand in the Trump phenom:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkm0Imu6w6Q


Awh, Glenn.

 

[Makai]

A random aside, but it looks like Glenn Beck's becoming self-aware regarding his hand in the Trump phenom:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkm0Imu6w6Q


Awh, Glenn.

"People who stopped watching my show are Trump supporters"

 

[Trouble]

Seattle "Stranger" endorses both Hillary and Bernie

Haha, that's pretty good.

You guys might be surprised how many Seattlites rely on The Stranger's endorsements every election. They actually do a surprisingly thorough evaluation of every candidate.

 

[Makai]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVCA7O9NR8w

Glenn Back - Superman and Batman wouldn't fight

 

[Iolo]

I had a dream that Hillary gave me a Seattle Stranger.

Just wait until Bill gives you an October Surprise

 

[blackaroni]

That tax calculator kinda makes me want to join Cruz Caravan. I'd pay $140 more under Killary and fucking $8,090 under Bern. Cruz would give me all of the money that Bernie is trying to take. Thankfully none of these plans are going to likely get passed so fuck Ted.

 

[shinra-bansho]

I'd pay several thousands of dollars more in the Sanders America; but it probably isn't much different from what I currently pay. It's probably why your services all suck.

I don't think the changes in taxation would really be reflected in current wages, but in how wages change going forward?

That seems to be the typical approach to assessing the impact of payroll taxes; longitudinal studies on the degree to which wage growth is depressed.

In replacing private health plans, much of the cost of which the worker may not even see, would the actual costs be translated into wage growth? Is Sanders also proposing increased corporate tax rates?

 

[Makai]

That tax calculator kinda makes me want to join Cruz Caravan. I'd pay $140 more under Killary and fucking $8,090 under Bern. Cruz would give me all of the money that Bernie is trying to take. Thankfully none of these plans are going to likely get passed so fuck Ted.

Is anyone still a Democrat after using the calculator? :U

 

[User 463088]

I'd pay several thousands of dollars more in the Sanders America; but it probably isn't much different from what I currently pay. It's probably why your services all suck.

I don't think the changes in taxation would really be reflected in current wages, but in how wages change going forward?

That seems to be the typical approach to assessing the impact of payroll taxes; longitudinal studies on the degree to which wage growth is depressed.

In replacing private health plans, much of the cost of which the worker may not even see, would the actual costs be translated into wage growth? Is Sanders also proposing increased corporate tax rates?

It's a 2.2% tax paid by the employee and 7 something percent tax on employers, I believe.

 

[BoboBrazil]

I'd pay several thousands of dollars more in the Sanders America; but it probably isn't much different from what I currently pay.

I don't think the changes in taxation would really be reflected in current wages, but in how wages change going forward?

That seems to be the typical approach to assessing the impact of payroll taxes; longitudinal studies on the degree to which wage growth is depressed.

In replacing private health plans, much of the cost of which the worker may not even see, would the actual costs be translated into wage growth? Is Sanders also proposing increased corporate tax rates?

We live in the land of corporate greed. Do you think the CEO's, owners, and board of directors would pass on savings to the average peon working at their company or keep it as profit to boost their bottom line and give themselves a bonus?

 

[Macho Madness]

Is anyone still a Democrat after using the calculator? :U

Clinton's plan is fine.

 

[Makai]

Clinton's plan is fine.

Opportunity cost of taking a slight tax increase over a massive tax cut.

 

[teiresias]

I'd pay several thousands of dollars more in the Sanders America; but it probably isn't much different from what I currently pay. It's probably why your services all suck.

I don't think the changes in taxation would really be reflected in current wages, but in how wages change going forward?

That seems to be the typical approach to assessing the impact of payroll taxes; longitudinal studies on the degree to which wage growth is depressed.

In replacing private health plans, much of the cost of which the worker may not even see, would the actual costs be translated into wage growth? Is Sanders also proposing increased corporate tax rates?

Frankly, I take the highly simple view, based on my exceedingly cynical viewpoint of the world, that how taking healthcare out of employee compensation would affect wages is completely analogous to how gas prices go up as oil prices increase, and then don't decrease at nearly the same rate when oil prices decrease.

I think assuming wages wouldn't budge is the only rationale view to hold given corporate behavior and the fact that the general populace never really understands how health insurance affects their wages to begin with - therefore there will be no pressure for wages to change.

 

[Officerrob]

Wait a minute, the only person quoted in the National Enquirer story is Roger Stone? Seriously?

 

[UltimaPooh]

In replacing private health plans, much of the cost of which the worker may not even see, would the actual costs be translated into wage growth? Is Sanders also proposing increased corporate tax rates?

Doubtful.

I would imagine some would be because they are local businesses who couldn't afford those kind of benefits in the first place.

Then the rest would just probably use it for their P and L.

Though that shouldn't be an inditement of Bernie's plan but should be an inditement of businesses not really wanting to play fair.

 

[User 463088]

Our local news talking about how Cleveland is going to roll out red carpet for the RNC.

Bitch, that carpet gonna be white, but they'll make it red with their blood.

 

[UltimaPooh]

Our local news talking about how Cleveland is going to roll out red carpet for the RNC.

Bitch, that carpet gonna be white, but they'll make it red with their blood.

So glad KC lost that battle.

 

[shinra-bansho]

I'm trying to look at this more empirically, than emotionally. So, to be more clear, is there anything sound in research to draw from that would help us to forecast employer behaviour?

It's a 2.2% tax paid by the employee and 7 something percent tax on employers, I believe.

I'm not referring to payroll taxes or a medicare levy in the last question. Unless you mean the proposed change is an increase in the corporate rate by 7%.

 

[Ananas]

Opportunity cost of taking a slight tax increase over a massive tax cut.

Free healthcare isn't gonna pay my rent. I pay $60 a month for my work plan that has zero deductible and zero copays.

 

[Macho Madness]

Opportunity cost of taking a slight tax increase over a massive tax cut.

It's knowing that the cut would come with a cut to a social program because it's not going to be from the military.

Anyone who thinks Trump isn't a damned Warhawk is a greenwaldian dumbass who doesn't believe what he says.

 

[RustyNails]

was wondering were all this glenn beckism and taint by association was coming from then saw

Zaid Jilani's name at the bottom.

this dreck shouldn't be a part of the left. criticizer her for her own words if you want.

Her speech talking about theology (as if all Muslims can become terrorists if they read their books more closely!) combined with photo ops with the most reviled political party in India by Muslims that was in power when Gujarat genocide happened? Sorry thats more than just taint by association. Fuck her.

 

[Makai]

It's knowing that the cut would come with a cut to a social program because it's not going to be from the military.

We could just print money.

 

[UltimaPooh]

I'm trying to look at this more empirically, than emotionally. So, to be more clear, is there anything sound in research to draw from that would help us to forecast employer behaviour?

Well I mean there's other things we can draw from. Such as lower corporate tax rates not actually benefiting employees or the fact that when The ACA was passed and employers limited employee hours so they wouldn't have to pay for it.

All of those draw conclusions that they would put the money towards the business instead of the employees.

 

[blackaroni]

Is anyone still a Democrat after using the calculator? :U

Lol. Hillary's plan alright, but Ted wants to give me money. Why wouldn't I take it?

 

[UltimaPooh]

Is anyone still a Democrat after using the calculator? :U

Yeah.

More taxes don't scare me.

 

[Enter the Dragon Punch]

 

[Basileus777]

It's knowing that the cut would come with a cut to a social program because it's not going to be from the military.

Anyone who thinks Trump isn't a damned Warhawk is a greenwaldian dumbass who doesn't believe what he says.

More like a low flat tax would destroy government revenue and severely impact the economy once the drastic steps needed to avert disaster were implemented. Ask people in Kansas about it.

 

[Y2Kev]

Yeah.

More taxes don't scare me.

Must not be part of the 1% like me.

 

[User 463088]

Here's something i don't get, but it's probably because I"m not a tax/math genius.

So, there's the 2.2% employee payroll tax, and the 6.7% employer one. Now, everyone has this insurance, so the Medicare tax we pay is still going to go into this fund, right? Cause, this plan has to get "rid" of Medicare, or at least drastically change it, because Bernie's plan is not how Medicare currently works.I'm assuming he also takes all of the federal Medicaid funds, but do the states owe money to the federal government for the portion of Medicaid they currently pay?

I can't seem to figure it out. I mean, this is all pointless, because he's not going to be the nominee nor would this actually pass anyway.

 

[UltimaPooh]

Must not be part of the 1% like me.

Haha. Well if I owed 500k more in taxes... I probably still wouldn't be sweating it. You have to be making a ridiculous amount Kev.

 

[Makai]

Reading the last two pages of tax talk makes me cry.

Spoiler

i have my masters in tax, specifically american tax



this is why i have a job

go on

 

[pigeon]

So I want to push back on this idea that corporations would just suck up the value from healthcare savings because I think it's somewhat facile.

If you want to argue that corporations would not pass the value onto employees in wages you need to explain why any corporations pay for healthcare now.

There is no legal requirement that they do so! Obviously there's a preferential tax treatment that incentivizes them to provide wages in the form of healthcare, but if you are right that employees don't factor the value of healthcare into their compensation packages effectively then there is no reason for them to use that loophole at all.

The only reason for them to do so is that employees do consider the value of their healthcare as compensation, in which case companies can't just suck that value up for the same reason that they can't just give people a big wage cut -- their good employees will just leave for other companies that don't do that. The labor market is a market! If you decide to pay less, you will get lower quality labor.

I hear shinra's critique about study foundation and I don't have anything on that in fairness to me, other countries don't have the weird tax treatment that led to this issue in the first place!

 

[Suikoguy]

My degree in English Literature and Creative writing is having a sad.
But my sociology minor totally makes up for it! /s

God, I made some dumb decisions.

My degree in Computer Information Systems is doing jack shit. 40 jobs applied in the last 6 months with 1 response saying they were not interested from one company, which was heartening. I at least make one follow up call or email to each job and nothing.

 

[Mael]

Sanders would make me pay more taxes than IRS equivalent made me ever shell out in socialist France.
Might as well go back to France if I have to pay the government to waste my cash.

 

[B-Dubs]

My degree in Computer Information Systems is doing jack shit. 40 jobs applied in the last 6 months with 1 response saying they were not interested from one company, which was heartening. I at least make one follow up call or email to each job and nothing.

Took me two years of internships and crap paying freelance gigs to get a steady job with a journalism degree. Hell, even now I'm probably still underpaid.

What I'm trying to say is you'll be fine.

 

[Basileus777]

Well I mean there's other things we can draw from. Such as lower corporate tax rates not actually benefiting employees or the fact that when The ACA was passed and employers limited employee hours so they wouldn't have to pay for it.

All of those draw conclusions that they would put the money towards the business instead of the employees.

Yep. Thanks to the ACA many businesses cap the hours of part timers to ensure that they never need to be covered. Part timers that are allowed to work more than 28 hours are an endangered species nowadays.

 

[Suikoguy]

Took me two years of internships and crap paying freelance gigs to get a steady job with a journalism degree. Hell, even now I'm probably still underpaid.

What I'm trying to say is you'll be fine.

Well, I thankfully have support from home. I'm right now learning Node.js and developing a customer portal for a lawn business my dad runs. I'm hoping showing I know what the fuck i'm doing will help.
College covered Java.

 

[shinra-bansho]

So I found some research [of which I've only had time/bothered to read the conclusion for now] done by the Australian Treasury, where they model multiple scenarios and find:

While the legal incidence of company tax is borne by companies themselves, the economic incidence of company tax, in terms of whose welfare is affected and by how much, is determined by the way the tax affects the behaviour of firms and consumers. To explore the incidence of company tax, this paper presents estimates of the long-run welfare effects of a 1 percentage point cut in the company tax rate. At an aggregate level these estimates suggest that, in comparison with previous modelling by KPMG Econtech (2010), the welfare gain from cutting the company tax rate is higher per dollar of revenue forgone than is the case for labour income tax or the goods and services tax.

The welfare effects of a 1 percentage point cut in the company tax rate are shared between company owners and workers. Estimates from the main scenario, which includes economic rents, suggest that in the long run only around one-third of these benefits accrue to the owners of capital, with the remaining two-thirds flowing to households primarily through higher wages. This has implications for the social distribution of income as capital ownership is significantly more concentrated than labour income (ABS 2013).

Alternative assumptions about the structure of the economy result in different estimates of the incidence of the company tax. As a sensitivity analysis, the paper presents estimates for an open and competitive economy in which there are no companies earning economic rents. In this scenario, none of the benefits of a company tax cut accrue to the owners of capital in the long-run. The paper also presents estimates from a scenario in which there are both economic rents and limits to international capital mobility, in which almost all of the benefits of a company tax cut accrue to the owners of capital in the long-run. Over time, as the Australian economy transitions through the current mining cycle and the rates of profit in that industry return towards more normal levels, and if the world economy continues to become more open and closely interconnected, it is likely that the results from the open and competitive scenario will become more relevant.

This isn't actually related to the impact of replacing private with public healthcare though really, I just thought it was interesting.

 

[Mael]

So I want to push back on this idea that corporations would just suck up the value from healthcare savings because I think it's somewhat facile.

If you want to argue that corporations would not pass the value onto employees in wages you need to explain why any corporations pay for healthcare now.

There is no legal requirement that they do so! Obviously there's a preferential tax treatment that incentivizes them to provide wages in the form of healthcare, but if you are right that employees don't factor the value of healthcare into their compensation packages effectively then there is no reason for them to use that loophole at all.

The only reason for them to do so is that employees do consider the value of their healthcare as compensation, in which case companies can't just suck that value up for the same reason that they can't just give people a big wage cut -- their good employees will just leave for other companies that don't do that. The labor market is a market! If you decide to pay less, you will get lower quality labor.

It's simple, even if it cost more employers provide healthcare as an incentive, they will probably raise wages as a way to make their job offers more competitive BUT most of the cost of healthcare plan is an unknown for the employee.
I don't think any company ever communicate on how much they're paying for that so if they pocket the benefits the employees have no idea how much they've lost anyway.

 

[UltimaPooh]

There is no legal requirement that they do so! Obviously there's a preferential tax treatment that incentivizes them to provide wages in the form of healthcare, but if you are right that employees don't factor the value of healthcare into their compensation packages effectively then there is no reason for them to use that loophole at all.

There is certainly a penalty if you do not provide healthcare.

http://www.zanebenefits.com/blog/bid/289948/Does-My-Employer-Have-to-Provide-Health-Insurance

 

[Suikoguy]

There is certainly a penalty if you do not provide healthcare.

http://www.zanebenefits.com/blog/bid/289948/Does-My-Employer-Have-to-Provide-Health-Insurance

That's true, the ACA added that IIRC. Have to be a certain size.

 

[RustyNails]

My degree in Computer Information Systems is doing jack shit. 40 jobs applied in the last 6 months with 1 response saying they were not interested from one company, which was heartening. I at least make one follow up call or email to each job and nothing.

....40 jobs applied in 6 months? There's your problem. Bruh, I applied to every single fukkin job that showed up in dice, linkedin and indeed that partially matched my skillset for few months. That's fuckload more than 40. Dont keep count. Just fire away like it's your full time job.

 

[pigeon]

It's simple, even if it cost more employers provide healthcare as an incentive, they will probably raise wages as a way to make their job offers more competitive BUT most of the cost of healthcare plan is an unknown for the employee.
I don't think any company ever communicate on how much they're paying for that so if they pocket the benefits the employees have no idea how much they've lost anyway.

I think this is false for a couple of reasons, most notably because my yearly benefit allocation tells me exactly what the cash value of my healthcare plan is. I can assure you that most of the people I have worked with are very sensitive to variations in healthcare plans precisely because it is compensation.

 

[pigeon]

There is certainly a penalty if you do not provide healthcare.

http://www.zanebenefits.com/blog/bid/289948/Does-My-Employer-Have-to-Provide-Health-Insurance

The employer mandate has not gone into effect and frankly probably will never go into effect because a) it is unpopular and b) it is bad policy. I expect it to keep getting delayed until it disappears entirely.

 

[FiggyCal]

Noam Chomsky, Glenn Greenwald and Edward Snowden are doing a panel discussion from 8-10.

You can watch the livestream here:

https://theintercept.com/a-conversation-about-privacy/

 

[UltimaPooh]

The employer mandate has not gone into effect and frankly probably will never go into effect because a) it is unpopular and b) it is bad policy. I expect it to keep getting delayed until it disappears entirely.

Should be going into effect this year. Any updates on whether or not it was pushed back again?

 

[Basileus777]

West Virginia has passed automatic voter registration for when people get driver's licenses or IDs. I guess Republicans are okay with people voting in states where almost everyone is white.

 

[shinra-bansho]

I think reiterating the two problems with translating cost savings into wage growth are that:

The real cost savings aren't transparent to the employee. They may not know the actual value of their health plan, despite ascribing some "value" to in the market for employment.

And the competitive advantage offered may be due to penalty on other non-providing employers. State provision of healthcare would level this playing field. Intuitively this would mean employers find new ways to differentiate, but I don't know if that actually necessitates wage growth, particularly at equal value to what is lost to employees so that they receive a net benefit from the change.

They could actually just continue to offer private health benefits actually, now that I think about it.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Ted Cruz wants to cut my (expected) taxes by so much, holy fuck.

I'm willing to stick with Killary though

 

[UltimaPooh]

The real cost savings aren't transparent to the employee. They may not know the actual value of their health plan, despite ascribing some "value" to in the market for employment.

I wouldn't be surprised.

A lot of employees also don't know their worth when it comes to wages in the actual company as when it comes to negotiation the employer likest to limit your ability in knowing what your worth.

Information is power.