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[ivysaur12]

They aren't silent on him and have literally been fine with him for years on years now. Why are you rewriting/ignoring history for your conspiracy theories? Is this your first election? Do you have any political experience? Hillary is hated far more by Republicans than Bernie has ever been. He could have a far easier time reaching across the aisle given the past.

Can you please fricking read the nuance and details of my post? I prefer Bernie to Hillary because 1) He appears far more genuine on the matter and has supported the LGBT community for far longer than her and in numerous ways. She only did so when it was popular to. 2) He actually gave a shit about trans-individuals when literally no one else did. To this day it's still unpopular and Hillary could barely even acknowledge our existence.





-I'm aware.

-She still said some pretty damning things before and after that time til at least late 2004.

-Unlike her he at least supported LGBT individuals in other matters and helped them express themselves. I agree he hasn't been the best in regards to same-sex marriage but unlike others, he at least gave a fuck for us in some ways.

-Hell in the 90s he gave a passionate speech on DODT and the rights and lives of LGBT citizens who laid down their lives for the country.

I know the states' issue thing already. I'm not claiming he's perfect but I sure as hell trust him far more than I ever have her on the matter.

Except Bernie literally never said that Vermont shouldn't legalize gay marriage. He stated it was a states rights issue and then remained silent on the matter for a while. I'm not saying it's right that he did but frankly speaking his overall record on LGBT is far stronger than Hillary's ever was.

And as I said, he actually gave a damn about trans-individuals far recently than Hillary's "oh, I guess you people exist" stance a few months ago. And given the history of the LGBT movement, anyone who gives a damn about trans-individuals is already more trustworthy to me than those who characterize it as a movement solely for gay cis-men. Which is frankly how Hillry has read til extremely recently. And that characterization comes about because of what happened when the movement was co-opted and our rights, plights, and suffering were shoved under the bus. The movement WAS about everyone. That changed and to this day I still feel like I am shoved under the bus. I don't trust that Hillary won't continue to shove me under.

Hillary has ACTUALLY done things for LGBT people abroad versus any legislation that Bernie has championed. We've seen in her emails that she was legitimately passionate about this. I trust her far more with the action she's taken and the emails she wrote than I do about Bernie, if we're talking about a sincere desire to fight for LGBT rights in 2016.

My original point was that neither of these people have been great on LGBT rights, which you seem to agree with. So I'm not sure what we're arguing besides intuition of who either of us thinks is really truly better.

 

[neurosisxeno]

Trade deals improve the lives of every American. Trade deals are how millions of Americans afford food and furniture. Trade deals are almost certainly enabling you to write this post on an internet message board.

I don't recall there being massive Food or Furniture shortages 50 years ago before all these free trade agreements came into existence. While they may lower prices and increase access to goods, they also stagnate the standard of living in a lot of areas and allow companies to suppress wages. You cannot buy cheap goods if you cannot make money.

Everything that ever happens in American government happens regardless of objections from the American people (by which you mean, of course, objections from the special interest groups that will be negatively affected by whatever thing is happening). Generally it doesn't mean it's wrong, it means governing a democracy is a series of messy compromises in which some people are negatively affected, because, contra Bernie Sanders, the world is a complicated place with difficult problems to solve.

While this is relatively true, you cannot deny that for a solid 30+ years our country has seen almost unanimous support for Free Trade Deals. These deals--by necessity--have to be negotiated in secret and special interests tend to have a lot of input on them, and it's hard to imagine anything that is unanimously beneficial to corporations is also good for every day people. If we're going to embrace Capitalism we also have to accept that we need adequate regulations to ensure the citizens of this country aren't being exploited, and having their wealth redistributed to the citizens of other countries.

But trade deals do help Americans. Like really significantly. But I think it's a lot easier to quantify someone losing their job than like an American being able to buy grapefruits at an affordable price. Or clothes costing a fraction of what they used to 20 years ago...which really blows my mind! I can't believe how cheap clothes are these days!

Obviously that's really bad for american seamsters. But really good for American consumers.

I'm in favor of doing everything at once.

I think people would rather be employed and pay a bit more than have no job and access to cheap grapefruits. Until we can adequately prepare our own people for changes in the market, and give them the skills and opportunities they need to succeed, we should stop signing these potentially harmful agreements.

 

[Ekai]

Hillary has ACTUALLY done things for LGBT people abroad versus any legislation that Bernie has championed. We've seen in her emails that she was legitimately passionate about this. I trust her far more with the action she's taken and the emails she wrote than I do about Bernie, if we're talking about a sincere desire to fight for LGBT rights in 2016.

I've seen her so called e-mails.
She couldn't even acknowledge my existence in them as recently as late last year. I trust Bernie far more with his long record of speaking for us in many regards(hell, he was FOR things that helped us that Hillary was actively against! what is this revisionist history going on here?), the fact he's actually given a fuck about me as a transwoman far more/far far earlier than Hillary EVER has and his quicker take on supporting civil unions and marriage., etc. etc. all result in me trusting him more.

 

[Makai]

I don't recall there being massive Food or Furniture shortages 50 years ago before all these free trade agreements came into existence. While they may lower prices and increase access to goods, they also stagnate the standard of living in a lot of areas and allow companies to suppress wages. You cannot buy cheap goods if you cannot make money.

Wages are much, much higher than they were 50 years ago.

 

[VendettaRed07]

Bernie often talks about countries abroad that handle things like healthcare, college tuition better than us.

I'd like to know what countries are his model in regards to trade/protectionist economics. What countries handle trade better?

 

[neurosisxeno]

Wages are much, much higher than they were 50 years ago.

 

[ugaboga232]

Wages are much, much higher than they were 50 years ago.

I thought they are basically stagnated after inflation from the 70s (median wage) could be mitaken?

 

[Makai]

Notice how that singles out a small group of workers. Check out all workers.

 

[neurosisxeno]

Notice how that singles out a small group of workers. Check out all workers.

It's so people in Executive positions don't skew the numbers horribly. We also have CEO's these days making tens of millions annually, which didn't exist as much in the 60's and 70's.

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

I'm in favor of free trade, in the abstract, but I think that it has been implemented irresponsibly thus far. In the absence of a strong social safety net and a concerted effort to transition American workers away from low-skilled manufacturing jobs into skilled trades, what we've done is flush the middle class into lower-paying, less satisfactory service jobs, which, coupled with the employer-favoring employment laws present in many states, has trapped many in lives that, while perhaps materially more comfortable in some respects than the previous generation, is also significantly less satisfying and quite a bit more stressful than it ought to be relative to the total wealth and prosperity the United States, as a political entity, enjoys. I like my free trade-based lifestyle, but I'm not so wedded to it that I can't see the drawbacks - the materialism, the consumerism, the resource waste, the pollution, the labor abuses in developing countries - that I think could have been avoided had politicians been more forward-thinking in their implementation of it.

 

[ivysaur12]

I've seen her so called e-mails.
She couldn't even acknowledge my existence in them as recently as late last year. I trust Bernie far more with his long record of speaking for us in many regards(hell, he was FOR things that helped us that Hillary was actively against! what is this revisionist history going on here?), the fact he's actually given a fuck about me as a transwoman far more/far far earlier than Hillary EVER has and his quicker take on supporting civil unions and marriage., etc. etc. all result in me trusting him more.

A surrogate's email? Really? I'm talking about her emails from her FOIA request where we can see how much she gave a shit about LGBT rights abroad. I'll take that candidate.

 

[pigeon]

Adjusting for inflation doesn't tell the complete story here, because the whole point is that trade deals are bringing new commodities into the country at lower prices.

Here's a more relevant graph!

 

[Ekai]

My original point was that neither of these people have been great on LGBT rights, which you seem to agree with. So I'm not sure what we're arguing besides intuition of who either of us thinks is really truly better.

I can agree with that on some level, regarding that neither have been amazing. But frankly speaking I can't at all ever agree with Hillary being anywhere near Bernie's level of support on the matter. We'll have to agree to disagree. If Hillary gets the nom. (and I will vote for her if she does as I pretty much have no other choice in the matter : / ), I sincerely hope she actually pushes for progressive fronts for many important issues regarding the economy, foreign policy and rights for ALL! within the LGBT spectrum but I highly doubt it will happen. Those are my 3 most important issues personally and I don't trust her on a single one of them.

 

[The Technomancer]

I'm in favor of free trade, in the abstract, but I think that it has been implemented irresponsibly thus far. In the absence of a strong social safety net and a concerted effort to transition American workers away from low-skilled manufacturing jobs into skilled trades, what we've done is flush the middle class into lower-paying, less satisfactory service jobs, which, coupled with the employer-favoring employment laws present in many states, has trapped many in lives that, while perhaps materially more comfortable in some respects than the previous generation, is also significantly less satisfying and quite a bit more stressful than it ought to be relative to the total wealth and prosperity the United States, as a political entity, enjoys. I like my free trade-based lifestyle, but I'm not so wedded to it that I can't see the drawbacks - the materialism, the consumerism, the resource waste, the pollution, the labor abuses in developing countries - that I think could have been avoided had politicians been more forward-thinking in their implementation of it.

This is basically where I'm at. I support free trade, I think we completely fucked up everything domestic around the transition

 

[Y2Kev]

I'm in favor of free trade, in the abstract, but I think that it has been implemented irresponsibly thus far. In the absence of a strong social safety net and a concerted effort to transition American workers away from low-skilled manufacturing jobs into skilled trades, what we've done is flush the middle class into lower-paying, less satisfactory service jobs, which, coupled with the employer-favoring employment laws present in many states, has trapped many in lives that, while perhaps materially more comfortable in some respects than the previous generation, is also significantly less satisfying and quite a bit more stressful than it ought to be relative to the total wealth and prosperity the United States, as a political entity, enjoys. I like my free trade-based lifestyle, but I'm not so wedded to it that I can't see the drawbacks - the materialism, the consumerism, the resource waste, the pollution, the labor abuses in developing countries - that I think could have been avoided had politicians been more forward-thinking in their implementation of it.

I agree with that. I think vocational education at a high school level that people choose to do in lieu of college is probably a controversial but important discussion to have. I don't think people need to go to college for many very lucrative, satisfying trades and yet we have a national focus on getting people through higher education! I don't think it helps lots of people! Make america great again!

 

[Ekai]

A surrogate's email? Really? I'm talking about her emails from her FOIA request where we can see how much she gave a shit about LGBT rights abroad. I'll take that candidate.

I'm talking about her literal inability to recognize that I exist as a human being til literally a few months ago. I can't trust her at all as a transwoman. She has done nothing for me except what Obama pushed for to be done while she was his SoS. Even after that time she still couldn't acknowledge my existence while HE did. That article I linked even went into the specifics of how she continued to falsely characterize the LGBT movement as one solely for gay cis-men both within that e-mail and on other matters. If someone can't even acknowledge my existence, why should I expect them to actually give a patootie about me?

 

[Makai]

I thought they are basically stagnated after inflation from the 70s (median wage) could be mitaken?

Nearly stagnant for the bottom quintiles, but just eyeballing the graph, every group seems to be at least a few thousand higher than 50 years ago. Regardless, you're better off if you make the same but everything is cheaper.

 

[pigeon]

Anticipating the objection that this doesn't take into account income distribution, here is PPP per capita multiplied by wage share of income. That is kind of a weird calculation when I write it out like that but I think it should do a reasonable job of showing purchasing power growth for people who work for a living.

Working-class Americans have more, better stuff than they used to. Trade deals are a big part of that.

 

[ivysaur12]

I'm talking about her literal inability to recognize that I exist as a human being til literally a few months ago. I can't trust her at all as a transwoman. She has done nothing for me except what Obama pushed for to be done while she was his SoS. Even after that time she still couldn't acknowledge my existence while he did. That article I linked even went into the specifics of how she continued to falsely characterize the LGBT movement as one solely for gay cis-men both within that e-mail and on other matters.

You keep saying Obama "pushed" her; but there is NO evidence of this. LGBT rights were something Hillary wanted to be a staple of her foreign policy!! We know all of this from her emails!

 

[Snowman Prophet of Doom]

I agree with that. I think vocational education at a high school level that people choose to do in lieu of college is probably a controversial but important discussion to have. I don't think people need to go to college for many very lucrative, satisfying trades and yet we have a national focus on getting people through higher education! I don't think it helps lots of people! Make america great again!

I absolutely despise the "everybody needs to go to college" mentality. That's why, despite his wonky libertarianism, I actually appreciate Mike Rowe for his championing of good-paying, blue collar jobs as an alternative to the path America has gone down in the last 3-4 decades.

 

[Poodlestrike]

You keep saying Obama "pushed" her; but there is NO evidence of this. LGBT rights were something Hillary wanted to be a staple of her foreign policy!! We know all of this from her emails!

The emails she was forced to release, at that. No spin there, no false face. This is shit that was never intended to see the light of day.

 

[Ekai]

You keep saying Obama "pushed" her; but there is NO evidence of this. LGBT rights were something Hillary wanted to be a staple of her foreign policy!! We know all of this from her emails!

Obama was the only one in the 08 debates who gave a rats ass about trans individuals. During those debates he brought up our plights. Hillary continued to solely characterize the LGBT movement as one for gay cis-men/for sexuality during those same debates. She refused to even touch on trans matters. Obama was the one who pushed for my rights during his presidency. Hillary sure as hell never has and has only adopted a position on my mere existence extremely recently.

 

[Suikoguy]

You keep saying Obama "pushed" her; but there is NO evidence of this. LGBT rights were something Hillary wanted to be a staple of her foreign policy!! We know all of this from her emails!

Know of any good articles that looked at those emails?
I can use that article in my facebook arguments ;p

 

[Makai]

Anticipating the objection that this doesn't take into account income distribution, here is PPP per capita multiplied by wage share of income. That is kind of a weird calculation when I write it out like that but I think it should do a reasonable job of showing purchasing power growth for people who work for a living.

Working-class Americans have more, better stuff than they used to. Trade deals are a big part of that.

I'm on the free trade side, but is there a way to quantify globalization and compare to that?

 

[Y2Kev]

The real question is where do the candidates stand on a) tipping and b) mayo on italian sub sandwiches

 

[ivysaur12]

Obama was the only one in the 08 debates who gave a rats ass about trans individuals. During those debates he brought up our plights. Hillary continued to solely characterize the LGBT movement as one for gay cis-men/for sexuality during those same debates. She refused to even touch on trans matters. Obama was the one who pushed for my rights during his presidency. Hillary sure as hell never has and has only adopted a position on my mere existence extremely recently.

We're talking past each other. Hillary showed a sincere interest in her FOIA emails for LGBT rights abroad, emails that were never meant to be public. I trust her as an advocate for LGBT rights coupled with her work as the SoS. These emails also cast doubt on your theory that it was Obama who pushed her on these issues.

 

[Coriolanus]

I believe there should be some protections and safety nets in regards to free trade that we haven't done.

But Bernies trade policy seems to me he would implement stuff like in Brazil where ps4s cost $2000 if it were up to him

eh... we got a 60% import fee on...pretty much almost everything that isn't particularly essential coming from the outside. Is why the xb3, at its initial retail price, was selling for +- 2k brl here. The ps4 initially selling for double that, even though it was 100 usd cheaper, is down to something called Brazil Cost, which is a codeword for "brazilians will gladly pay up the ass for anything that they feel increases their social status even slightly". This touches everything from clothes of moderately known brands to even the shittiest cars, which are legit seen as investments down here. Sony Brazil simply thought that the brand was so powerful, and the stock so limited, that they could get away with it.

So it is not the kind of thing one should worry about. Quite the local phenomenom. If you want an idea of how prices would spike, canada or some european countries might be better points of comparison.

the more you know and all.

 

[NeoXChaos]

Trump Rally in St Louis

 

[Y2Kev]

context please?

 

[damisa]

That's like saying eliminating the Estate Tax increases Wealth in some Americans. It's true but missing the main complaint.

Trade deals are a net positive to America, Bernie demonizing them is the same as Trump demonizing immigrants. It's just populist garbage designed to give people something to blame for their misfortunes.

Something like 95% of economists agree that free trade is good for America. I'm not talking about hand picked corporate economists either, but dozens of Economic professors from liberal colleges like MIT. http://www.igmchicago.org/igm-economic-experts-panel/poll-results?SurveyID=SV_d68906VNWqVmiGN

Bernie should be ashamed of himself for this propaganda, it might get him votes but it's harmful for America

 

[HylianTom]

The real question is where do the candidates stand on a) tipping and b) mayo on italian sub sandwiches

I want to know where they are on stuffing vs potatoes for Thanksgiving.

 

[FloydtheFathead]

I want to know where they are on stuffing vs potatoes for Thanksgiving.

Potatoes are good wholesome American goodness and if you hate them.. You're a communist.

 

[pigeon]

I'm on the free trade side, but is there a way to quantify globalization and compare to that?

Maybe! Let us quant together. When you say globalization, what specifically are you thinking of, and what effects does it have?

 

[Touchdown]

Trump Rally in St Louis

 

[Y2Kev]

Stuffing is unamerican. It is taking old, stinky bread pieces and stuffing them into a bird's ass. Potatoes are great.

 

[Giant Panda]

Potatoes are good wholesome American goodness and if you hate them.. You're a communist.

Potatoes are the work of the devil. No taste and terrible texture.

 

[Y2Kev]

Potatoes are the work of the devil. No taste and terrible texture.

Hate to see how you are preparing them!

GET HIM OUT

GET HIM OUT

 

[Officerrob]

Stuffing 4 Life

 

[Iolo]

I want to know where they are on stuffing vs potatoes for Thanksgiving.

 

[Macho Madness]

Boehner has endorsed Kasich

 

[HylianTom]

Potatoes are good wholesome American goodness and if you hate them.. You're a communist.

PPP asks on Twitter for goofy poll questions, and I wanted them to ask on this issue in November. It's a hot topic.

Spoiler

(Or it was, maybe in 1992)

 

[Makai]

Maybe! Let us quant together. When you say globalization, what specifically are you thinking of, and what effects does it have?

How about...there is a total number of goods that is sold and globalization is the percentage that is sold between state lines (international). Effect is purchasing power or similar.

 

[theprodigy]

Boehner has endorsed Kasich

even beyond "lol establishment endorsement", an Ohio politician endorsing another one, yawn

 

[VendettaRed07]

eh... we got a 60% import fee on...pretty much almost everything that isn't particularly essential coming from the outside. Is why the xb3, at its initial retail price, was selling for +- 2k brl here. The ps4 initially selling for double that, even though it was 100 usd cheaper, is down to something called Brazil Cost, which is a codeword for "brazilians will gladly pay up the ass for anything that they feel increases their social status even slightly". This touches everything from clothes of moderately known brands to even the shittiest cars, which are legit seen as investments down here. Sony Brazil simply thought that the brand was so powerful, and the stock so limited, that they could get away with it.

So it is not the kind of thing one should worry about. Quite the local phenomenom. If you want an idea of how prices would spike, canada or some european countries might be better points of comparison.

the more you know and all.

I see. Thanks for clearing that up. I took a Latin American history class last semester and my teacher basically used Brazil as an example as to why free trade is necessary and how it historically was vastly overly protectionist. He's from Argentina so I don't know if that played into his narrative at all lol

 

[Wilsongt]

Oh look. Another Hillary thread in the OT.

 

[User 406]

Please trefoils are the best..

Where all the cookies come from. Vital to the union TBH

You misspelled Do-Si-Dos, brah.

#ThinMintsMatter

And you can vote for me in 2032.

Y2Kev 2032: He's Fighting For His Tax Cut.

I want to know where they are on stuffing vs potatoes for Thanksgiving.

Fuck you mean, "vs"? There better be both of them or there will be hell to pay! >:|

Stuffing is unamerican. It is taking old, stinky bread pieces and stuffing them into a bird's ass. Potatoes are great.

Y2Kev 2032: Not Even Once.

 

[Cerium]

Posted?

brainchild's avatar finally makes sense.

 

[Nazgul_Hunter]

Oh look. Another Hillary thread in the OT.

To be fair, that is a pretty egregious unforced error by Hillary

 

[FloydtheFathead]

Stuffing is unamerican. It is taking old, stinky bread pieces and stuffing them into a bird's ass. Potatoes are great.

Yes.

Potatoes are the work of the devil. No taste and terrible texture.

Just cause you can't make mashed potatoes to save your life does not mean that they aren't good.

Hate to see how you are preparing them!

GET HIM OUT

GET HIM OUT

Use the hammer Kev.. No one notice.. God does not want him to live

Spoiler

on GAF

PPP asks on Twitter for goofy poll questions, and I wanted them to ask on this issue in November. It's a hot topic.

Spoiler

(Or it was, maybe in 1992)

That sounds like a fun job. What kind of dumb questions could I get people to answer.

 

[Y2Kev]

Yasss King of All Cosmos tyson! Drag those antitrum...wait wat