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PoliGAF 2017 |OT2| Well, maybe McMaster isn't a traitor.

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K

kirblar

Member
Public Option/Medicare buy in/whatever form it actually takes isn't going to be a problem in the House. They had it in their version of Obamacare!

The problem was the Senate, and two things are going to be different this time.

a) Nelson, Liberman, Baucus, etc. are almost all gone.
b) That fillibuster is fucking dead.

Get the DDD lineup in 2020 and you are going to see fireworks.
 
P

Plinko

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
kirblar said:
Public Option/Medicare buy in/whatever form it actually takes isn't going to be a problem in the House. They had it in their version of Obamacare!

The problem was the Senate, and two things are going to be different this time.

a) Nelson, Liberman, Baucus, etc. are almost all gone.
b) That fillibuster is fucking dead.

Get the DDD lineup in 2020 and you are going to see fireworks.
Click to expand...

This is my hope for the future.
 
B

Bonen no Max'd

Banned
kirblar said:
Oh, I assumed it was Medicare buy-in available to all, not YOU ARE GETTING MEDICARE WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT.

That definitely won't pass. A buy in easily can.
Click to expand...
I mean it definitely won't pass if we don't put public pressure on our officials to pass legislation we want, which is why it now has over half the House democrats cosponsoring the bill.
 
J

JP_

Banned
Carpe Libertatem said:
Republicans saw it in the last week - that's when you saw Cruz go there and the robocalls were recorded. As I said, options are limited when there is only a week left. Unfortunately, the Democratic Party does not have equivalent politicians who could come to KS-04 for rallies and record robocalls, with Bernie being probably the closest.

You didn't really see Republicans worried up until a week or so ago. I'm sure they saw the numbers gradually get worse, but it's not like they were having Cruz et al come in in March.

I'm pretty sure the DNC/DCCC learned some valuable lessons from this race, regardless. Not sure why you think the lesson they learned is "not get involved" (if that's what you're implying).
Click to expand...

Dems should have had one in the chamber ready to fire when the opportunity arose. They were caught off guard, sure -- but they shouldn't have been. They need to come up with plans for when this sort of thing happens so that they can jump on it. A plan of action, a list of people they can call to make appearances, etc.

And no, that's not what I'm implying. I'm hopeful they do learn from this.
 
K

kirblar

Member
Bonen no Max'd said:
I mean it definitely won't pass if we don't put public pressure on our officials to pass legislation we want, which is why it now has over half the House democrats cosponsoring the bill.
Click to expand...
In addiiton to me not thinking it can pass (The Senate is more liberal than it once was...but it ain't that liberal) I also do not think it should pass. The economic shock of dismantling health insurance companies and having them replaced by the government would be ridiculously large, and after seeing what's happening to the NHS in the UK, I do not trust a GOP congress or presidency with direct access to health care controls. I like having giant corporations lobbying them to keep this shit intact while we're not in power because it reduces the amount of crap they can pull.
 
C

Carpe Libertatem

Member
I dunno, Markey was stupidly saying Dems would bring back the SCOTUS filibuster if they win control back, so no guarantee the filibuster is dead!

No idea why he would even suggest that... I imagine the people who actually care about that sort of thing are minimal.

JP_ said:
Dems should have had one in the chamber ready to fire when the opportunity arose. They were caught off guard, sure -- but they shouldn't have been. They need to come up with plans for when this sort of thing happens so that they can jump on it.

And no, that's not what I'm implying. I'm hopeful they do learn from this.
Click to expand...

Again, I just don't think there is anyone outside of Bernie (and he could have easily gone on his own. And should have!) that has appeal in KS-04. Democrats don't have big national figures that are popular in red areas. That's something that can't be rectified over night. First step (in KS at least): win Governor's race in 2018, beat Yoder & maybe win KS-02. But right now there isn't anyone to come rally or make robocalls. And given they did end up making phone calls... not sure what else you could expect with less than a week left.
 
W

whyamihere

Banned
kirblar said:
In addiiton to me not thinking it can pass (The Senate is more liberal than it once was...but it ain't that liberal) I also do not think it should pass. The economic shock of dismantling health insurance companies and having them replaced by the government would be ridiculously large, and after seeing what's happening to the NHS in the UK, I do not trust a GOP congress or presidency with direct access to health care controls. I like having giant corporations lobbying them to keep this shit intact while we're not in power because it reduces the amount of crap they can pull.
Click to expand...

You make it a third rail so they can't touch it. You're about to see the same thing if Trump tries to fuck with the ACA. I don't see any reason not to go for Medicare for All.
 
B

Bonen no Max'd

Banned
Carpe Libertatem said:
I dunno, Markey was stupidly saying Dems would bring back the SCOTUS filibuster if they win control back, so no guarantee the filibuster is dead!

No idea why he would even suggest that... I imagine the people who actually care about that sort of thing are minimal.



Again, I just don't think there is anyone outside of Bernie (and he could have easily gone on his own. And should have!) that has appeal in KS-04. Democrats don't have big national figures that are popular in red areas. That's something that can't be rectified over night. First step (in KS at least): win Governor's race in 2018, beat Yoder & maybe win KS-02. But right now there isn't anyone to come rally or make robocalls.
Click to expand...
Again, there's more options than "do nothing while campaign says it needs money" and "have Pelosi come do a rally". Hire some paid staffers, send some flyers, give the campaign the support it wants. I'm totally willing to absolve the DCCC on this one if they wise up and start investing in Montana but it's important to criticize it now so that they do. Plus, it helps set up the infrastructure for later races like the upcoming gubernatorial one, which would be especially helpful in Montana with Tester coming up.

It's just baffling to me to see the people who argued that we have to raise the disgusting amounts of money from terrible sources so that we can fund elections in every state and at every level arguing that helping Thompson out would be a good idea.

whyamihere said:
You make it a third rail so they can't touch it. You're about to see the same thing if Trump tries to fuck with the ACA. I don't see any reason not to go for Medicare for All.
Click to expand...
Yeah this
 
K

kirblar

Member
whyamihere said:
You make it a third rail so they can't touch it. You're about to see the same thing if Trump tries to fuck with the ACA. I don't see any reason not to go for Medicare for All.
Click to expand...
The NHS is getting gutted in the UK w/ a heavy conservative majority and a useless liberal party. To make it a third rail, you need someone to be pumping the juice into the rail, and I don't see an electorate as being willing or able to defend it on its own.
 
C

Carpe Libertatem

Member
Bonen no Max'd said:
Again, there's more options than "do nothing while campaign says it needs money" and "have Pelosi come do a rally". Hire some paid staffers, send some flyers, give the campaign the support it wants. I'm totally willing to absolve the DCCC on this one if they wise up and start investing in Montana but it's important to criticize it now so that they do. Plus, it helps set up the infrastructure for later races like the upcoming gubernatorial one, which would be especially helpful in Montana with Tester coming up.

It's just baffling to me to see the people who argued that we have to raise the disgusting amounts of money from terrible sources so that we can fund elections in every state and at every level arguing that helping Thompson out would be a good idea.
Click to expand...

They did make live phone calls to about 25,000 homes, though.

My problem is again with how quickly and late this race changed. It was looking like a 15-20 point loss in March. DNC/DCCC would be stupid to invest at that point. And with only a week left, there are less options available.

I think they were mostly worried about nationalizing the race, though. Which actually probably helped Thompson go under the radar and gradually build up support. They should have been more prepared in the final days, though, when it inevitably became nationalized.
 
K

kirblar

Member
Bonen no Max'd said:
Am I dreaming up all those rallies and grassroots action to save the ACA that happened?
Click to expand...
Am I dreaming up all those Tea Partiers who showed up in '09/'10 as well?

Are you telling me we should have been responsive to their desires? Because we weren't. And we shouldn't have been.

The GOP hasn't done anything w/ the ACA because they're supremely incompetent. They can't agree on what to do and are just sitting around doing nothing. (Which is good!) The issue is that if they did get a competent GOP crowd in there, I want stakeholders in the mix who they will actually listen to.
 
The Chosen One

The Chosen One

Member
Stinkles said:
"Putin is leader of Russia. Russia is a strong country. The US is a very very strong country. The world's a mess. But believe me, after I get done, it's going to be a better place to live. It's a nasty place." - Passes back to an extraoridinarily uncomfortable looking secretary general.
Click to expand...

Is that literally what Trump said?
 
S

sphagnum

Banned
ShadowSwordmaster said:
I'm guessing Trump is slowly becoming China's bitch now?
Click to expand...

China is a tremendous state, very big, one of the greatest. Not as great as us, you see, but they're up there with the greats. I know a lot of wonderful Chinese people. I have a great relationship with the Chinese. Wouldn't it be great if we got along with them? They've got beautiful women and tremendous, tremendous food. General Tso is a person being more and more recognized these days for the things he's done, and they are great things. And they have a beautiful wall. Not as beautiful as mine will be but it's tremendous, big league. So I think we'll all be very happy with the great things we're going to do with China.
 
I

ItWasMeantToBe19

Banned
whyamihere said:
You make it a third rail so they can't touch it. You're about to see the same thing if Trump tries to fuck with the ACA. I don't see any reason not to go for Medicare for All.
Click to expand...

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

The hundreds of millions of people who would have to change health insurance plans?

The immediate loss of like 500k jobs?
 
T

Tommy DJ

Member
T

TiredofWinning

Member
The Chosen One said:
Btw, there's a backlash at least with a segment of Trump's supporters over his recent flip-flops. If you read the comments at Breitbart on Trump reversing his stance on Nato, they are completely disillusioned.
http://www.breitbart.com/news/the-latest-trump-says-nato-no-longer-obsolete/
Click to expand...

Holy shit those comments are like they're from a different dimension.

I just thought the alt-right latched on to the Hillary and Podesta are pedos nonsense cause of the trolling value, I didn't think they'd actually be pissed at Trump for not going after them over fake sex trafficking stories.
 
P

pigeon

Banned
Bonen no Max'd said:
Again, there's more options than "do nothing while campaign says it needs money" and "have Pelosi come do a rally". Hire some paid staffers, send some flyers, give the campaign the support it wants. I'm totally willing to absolve the DCCC on this one if they wise up and start investing in Montana but it's important to criticize it now so that they do. Plus, it helps set up the infrastructure for later races like the upcoming gubernatorial one, which would be especially helpful in Montana with Tester coming up.

It's just baffling to me to see the people who argued that we have to raise the disgusting amounts of money from terrible sources so that we can fund elections in every state and at every level arguing that helping Thompson out would be a good idea.

Yeah this
Click to expand...

So I agree with all of this, and it's also worth noting that while poli sci says money doesn't matter, that's when both sides have at least some. If one side is getting funding and the other side isn't, that does matter.

The essence of the fifty state strategy is that we should fund every race at least a little bit. It should have significantly better results than dumping huge piles of cash into some races and ignoring others. In fact, this is the strategy the GOP used against us in the last eight years.
 
T

Tommy DJ

Member
TiredofWinning said:
Holy shit those comments are like they're from a different dimension.

I just thought the alt-right latched on to the Hillary and Podesta are pedos nonsense cause of the trolling value, I didn't think they'd actually be pissed at Trump for not going after them over fake sex trafficking stories.
Click to expand...

No, because people actually believe those stories for whatever reason.

Its funny that the lack of transparency is making everyone read tea leaves. Breitbart readers seem to be latching onto the mainstream media's narrative that Trump is jettisoning Bannon. There a more than a few comments suggesting that Trump can't handle sharing the spotlight with Bannon because he's an insecure egomaniac.

Also, more than a few comments crying that Kushner and Ivanka are turning Trump into a (((globalist))) cuck. Considering that one of Trump's largest draws (ignoring full blown racism) was his isolationist stance, I have to wonder how much this will suppress turnout in future elections.
 
P

pigeon

Banned
Medicare for All isn't single-payer. It would be significantly more limited than a single-payer system.

Health insurance companies might still be pissed off about it, but there are lots of transitional things that could be done, and people won't necessarily want to give up high-quality insurance.
 
B

Bonen no Max'd

Banned
pigeon said:
Medicare for All isn't single-payer. It would be significantly more limited than a single-payer system.

Health insurance companies might still be pissed off about it, but there are lots of transitional things that could be done, and people won't necessarily want to give up high-quality insurance.
Click to expand...
wait huh what?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_National_Health_Care_Act

The United States National Health Care Act, or the Expanded and Improved Medicare for All Act (H.R. 676) is a bill introduced in the United States House of Representatives by Representative John Conyers (D-MI).[1] The bill had 49 cosponsors in 2015. As of March 29,2017,it has 76 cosponsors.[1]The act would establish a universal single-payer health care system in the United States, the rough equivalent of Canada's Medicare and Taiwan's Bureau of National Health Insurance, among other examples. Under a single-payer system, most medical care would be paid for by the Government of the United States, ending the need for private health insurance and premiums, and probably recasting private insurance companies as providing purely supplemental coverage, to be used when non-essential care is sought.
Click to expand...

are you conflating single payer with an NHS like system where the hospitals and healthcare workers become public?
 
P

pigeon

Banned
Bonen no Max'd said:
wait huh what?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_National_Health_Care_Act



are you conflating single payer with an NHS like system where the hospitals and healthcare workers become public?
Click to expand...

I guess maybe? Medicare as it currently exists has a lot of deductibles and copays. For example, I wouldn't trade my current insurance for Medicare. Although I probably would if I also got like the $20k of compensation as cash instead of in-kind.

I assumed the plan was to extend Medicare to everybody but leave the program otherwise the same. It's a little unclear from the Wikipedia page whether that's the case or not.

Shouldn't have said it isn't single-payer. I meant it wouldn't be completely free. When we discussed it in 2009 it was as a variant of the public option rather than necessarily as a replacement for the whole healthcare system.
 
U

ugaboga232

Member
pigeon said:
I guess maybe? Medicare as it currently exists has a lot of deductibles and copays. For example, I wouldn't trade my current insurance for Medicare. Although I probably would if I also got like the $20k of compensation as cash instead of in-kind.

I assumed the plan was to extend Medicare to everybody but leave the program otherwise the same. It's a little unclear from the Wikipedia page whether that's the case or not.

Shouldn't have said it isn't single-payer. I meant it wouldn't be completely free. When we discussed it in 2009 it was as a variant of the public option rather than necessarily as a replacement for the whole healthcare system.
Click to expand...

Bernie's plan tries to have it as a "free" healthcare. Devil is in the details.
 
T

Teggy

Member
D advantage in GA almost gone :(

Nate Cohn‏ @Nate_Cohn

Day 14 of early voting in GA-6 is R 52, D 32--first day that Trump probably would have won
Over all, D 44, R 40 with 39419 votes counted
Click to expand...
 
I

IggyChooChoo

Member
ascii42 said:
Yeah, but they'd still have health coverage, at least.

One way I've thought of doing things without shocking the system as much is to gradually expand Medicaid.
Click to expand...

You could do what John Edwards was going for, which was start by making Medicare for 18 and under, and also 60 and over, then over time adjust the eligibility ages so everyone else is eventually in the system.
 
H

Holmes

Member
Early vote numbers for GA-06 are not based on party affiliation. If a third of voters there voted in the last Democratic primary with the rest in the Republican primary, it's crazy that "Democrats" are even ahead. Hillary received a good chunk of these same Republicans last November.
 
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