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PoliGAF 2017 |OT2| Well, maybe McMaster isn't a traitor.

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M

metalslimer

Member
People seem to think that republican congressman are this amazing cohesive block. Why? Just because they were lockstep in fighting Obama? That's pretty easy to do. It's is significantly harder to be lockstep in passing legislation. Just look through the Bush years and how bad they got their asses handed to them with the Social Security debacle

Republicans may have a decent idea of how to get elected across the country, but when it comes to actually governing they are a complete disaster.
 
B

Blader

Member
metalslimer said:
People seem to think that republican congressman are this amazing cohesive block. Why? Just because they were lockstep in fighting Obama? That's pretty easy to do. It's is significantly harder to be lockstep in passing legislation. Just look through the Bush years and how bad they got their asses handed to them with the Social Security debacle

Republicans may have a decent idea of how to get elected across the country, but when it comes to actually governing they are a complete disaster.
Click to expand...

Many Republicans in Congress today were elected on the Tea Party wave, so they don't have any experience in governing, just in being the opposition party. Similarly, they don't have any experience in misreading a mandate and trying to go too far, only for it to blow up in their faces (e.g. Social Security privatization attempt).
 
M

metalslimer

Member
Also you the complete lack of public support for this bill is telling. If no one wants to attach their name to it (especially in the senate), why exactly would they tied themselves down to it heading into the midterms?

Republicans were idiots for going for this first without passing some red meat that the base could actually get behind and pull in some goodwill.
 
K

kirblar

Member
Blader said:
Many Republicans in Congress today were elected on the Tea Party wave, so they don't have any experience in governing, just in being the opposition party. Similarly, they don't have any experience in misreading a mandate and trying to go too far, only for it to blow up in their faces (e.g. Social Security privatization attempt).
Click to expand...
People who spend their entire careers railing from the outside are highly unlikely to actually be able to be effective at governance. Spending all your time in protest means you never learn how to actually do something proactive.
 
I

Ignatz Mouse

Banned
Looking at key Republicans who are opposed or hedging, Ted Cruz and Rand Paul stand out the most. These are guys who have enough people watching them that they can't just vote on whatever and dodge the consequences. They have ambitions and they know that voting for this bill will hurt them.

Others can go along and wait for it to fail, or are otherwise safe regardless of outcome.
 
Z

Ziltoidia 9

Member
I wish people would realize there is no free market with health care. When you get need a doctor immediately or have to go to hospital, you don't get to "shop around." The insurance companies were the ones that were supposed to try and limit costs, since they "pay" it, but of course they wouldn't want to because then it lowers their profits. The whole system is F'd and we focus on the wrong approach when talking about how to fix it, especially when the GOP is so dead set on approaching it like it is any other market.

Also, there are tons of examples of single payer health care working, there aren't examples of insurance based healthcare working. Working = affordable for people.
 
V

Valhelm

contribute something
dramatis said:
NPR made a tracker to show who is supporting and who is opposing the bill.

Go check your local congressperson and senator.
Click to expand...

Ileana Ros-Lehinten strives for the image of the compassionate conservative and votes against the GOP fairly often. She's voted against Obamacare constantly, so I don't expect her to change her mind now.

Carlos Curbelo, right across the way, is one of the most left-wing Republicans and a proud Trump opponent... but at the end of the day he's still a Republican. I'm not sure if he cares much about people getting healthcare.

Given that these two folks are some of the most moderate Republicans in Congress, the prospects for stopping this aren't too good.
 
I

Ignatz Mouse

Banned
Ziltoidia 9 said:
I wish people would realize there is no free market with health care. When you get need a doctor immediately or have to go to hospital, you don't get to "shop around." The insurance companies were the ones that were supposed to try and limit costs, since they "pay" it, but of course they wouldn't want to because then it lowers their profits. The whole system is F'd and we focus on the wrong approach when talking about how to fix it, especially when the GOP is so dead set on approaching it like it is any other market.
Click to expand...

Insurers actually do work to contain costs. They get hammered because they try to contain the costs at the expense of the patient, but they also try to contain the costs at the expense of the providers, too.

The real problem as I understand it is the board that determines what Medicare will pay, which is turn sets the expectations for other payers.
 
J

jtb

Banned
Very unimpressed with Seth Moulton on PSA yesterday. Dunno if he's being pegged for bigger and better things but, uh, I hope not.
 
B

Bonen no Max'd

Banned
Ziltoidia 9 said:
I wish people would realize there is no free market with health care. When you get need a doctor immediately or have to go to hospital, you don't get to "shop around." The insurance companies were the ones that were supposed to try and limit costs, since they "pay" it, but of course they wouldn't want to because then it lowers their profits. The whole system is F'd and we focus on the wrong approach when talking about how to fix it, especially when the GOP is so dead set on approaching it like it is any other market.

Also, there are tons of examples of single payer health care working, there aren't examples of insurance based healthcare working. Working = affordable for people.
Click to expand...
Right, I understand that, but my district is also one where the Democrat was endorsed by the Tea Party and still lost to one of the crazy Freedom Caucus trolls because we needed the rightmost candidate so he's just ideologically opposed to the idea of government healthcare because he's an asshole.
 
V

Vixdean

Member
The best argument for pushing single payer is that Republicans already maxed out their outrage and disgust on Obamacare. Unless it was by another minority President they hate, then it will probably face even less resistance.
 
Z

Ziltoidia 9

Member
Ignatz Mouse said:
Insurers actually do work to contain costs. They get hammered because they try to contain the costs at the expense of the patient, but they also try to contain the costs at the expense of the providers, too.

The real problem as I understand it is the board that determines what Medicare will pay, which is turn sets the expectations for other payers.
Click to expand...

The way I see it, common people can either be paid more, to make it easier to afford the premiums/deductibles (this would also put more money into the insurance pool), or the rich ass insurance companies, healthcare oriented companies, doctors, hospitals, etc can take a pay cut. Seeing as they have so much lobbying cash now, I doubt it will happen soon. This is why I had issues with Hillary and her fund raising dinners. Yeah, she isn't 5% as currupt as the right, but you have to set a prcident or the other side will say "see! they do it too!!". Last year was a perfect time to stick to it, too.

Bonen no Max'd said:
Right, I understand that, but my district is also one where the Democrat was endorsed by the Tea Party and still lost to one of the crazy Freedom Caucus trolls because we needed the rightmost candidate so he's just ideologically opposed to the idea of government healthcare because he's an asshole.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't doubt it. The republican party right now is "who can be crazier" ever 2 years.
 
Emerson

Emerson

May contain jokes =>
Valhelm said:
Ileana Ros-Lehinten strives for the image of the compassionate conservative and votes against the GOP fairly often. She's voted against Obamacare constantly, so I don't expect her to change her mind now.

Carlos Curbelo, right across the way, is one of the most left-wing Republicans and a proud Trump opponent... but at the end of the day he's still a Republican. I'm not sure if he cares much about people getting healthcare.

Given that these two folks are some of the most moderate Republicans in Congress, the prospects for stopping this aren't too good.
Click to expand...

It still dies in the Senate.

Or, Republicans force this through anyway against the cries of their moderate constituents and 2018 is a slaughter.
 
G

Gruco

Banned
Valhelm said:
Given that these two folks are some of the most moderate Republicans in Congress, the prospects for stopping this aren't too good.
Click to expand...
It's not about the moderate GOP members of the house, it's about reconciling the freedom caucus with the Senate. Both need to agree in order for this to get anywhere. I'll start worrying when I see signs that that's about to happen.
 
I

IggyChooChoo

Member
Vixdean said:
The best argument for pushing single payer is that Republicans already maxed out their outrage and disgust on Obamacare. Unless it was by another minority President they hate, then it will probably face even less resistance.
Click to expand...
I hear you but the most potent argument they have against single payer is that it will raise middle class taxes significantly, which is an indisputable fact. Now it may be the case that it works out way better for the average household and for society as a whole to have single payer, but getting past that tax argument is a major hurdle.
 
V

Vixdean

Member
So like, what are the limits on budget reconciliation legislation? With this bill, they aren't just eliminating the Obamacare subsidy system, they are replacing with a different tax credit system. Is it possible that some future Democrat controlled but not filibuster proof government uses reconciliation to pass something like "each citizen receives a tax credit equal to their yearly cost of care, including insurance premiums".
 
C

Carpe Libertatem

Member
Gruco said:
It's not about the moderate GOP members of the house, it's about reconciling the freedom caucus with the Senate. Both need to agree in order for this to get anywhere. I'll start worrying when I see signs that that's about to happen.
Click to expand...

Yeah, moderate Republicans rarely go against their party on big stuff like this. It's the people in the Freedom Caucus that do so. And I'm not sure a bull exists that pleases both of those groups.
 
L

Lmo911

Member
metalslimer said:
Also you the complete lack of public support for this bill is telling. If no one wants to attach their name to it (especially in the senate), why exactly would they tied themselves down to it heading into the midterms?

Republicans were idiots for going for this first without passing some red meat that the base could actually get behind and pull in some goodwill.
Click to expand...

Sad thing is this was their red meat. It's just people finally realized that Obamacare and the ACA were the same thing.
 
P

Poodlestrike

Banned
jtb said:
Very unimpressed with Seth Moulton on PSA yesterday. Dunno if he's being pegged for bigger and better things but, uh, I hope not.
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Parts of what he said impressed me, and he comes off as extraordinarily personable, but yeah, overall it wasn't a great look. Too much excusing "economic anxiety," too much blaming and distancing himself from the Dems.

ItWasMeantToBe19 said:
The Gallup poll is on some dumb shit.

Five days ago: Trump at -12

Two days ago: Trump at -4

Today: Trump at -16
Click to expand...

There's always fluctuations. That's why we look at the average.
 
P

pigeon

Banned
Guys, a 5% margin of error on a poll you do every day means a >2 sigma event once every three weeks. Don't overthink it.
 
A

AndyD

aka andydumi
So is the conference coming?

xUPGcLKuGsvaK43kSQ.gif
 
B

Blader

Member
jtb said:
Very unimpressed with Seth Moulton on PSA yesterday. Dunno if he's being pegged for bigger and better things but, uh, I hope not.
Click to expand...

I thought he came off well enough (except for his support of congressional term limits, which I'm not in favor of), but also, he's a congressman who has been in office for all of two years. And I feel like that one audience member asking if he'd ever run for president is pretty emblematic of a lot of our party/generation's problems, where every well-spoken, charismatic person in office must be president.
 
R

Rebel Leader

THE POWER OF BUTTERSCOTCH BOTTOMS
It's only accounting the one point of a 3 point plan


SHOW US THE OtHER PARTS YOU SHIT. YOU KEEP TALKING ABOUT THEM BUT NEVER SAY
 
C

chadskin

Member
Election in the Netherlands tomorrow; support for the far-right party PVV of Geert Wilders has gone down considerably from 20-30% in polls weeks and months ago to 10-13% now:

(left: projection for 2017, right: election result in 2012)
C65d10FWsAAf8L7.jpg


C65gJ52XAAEfl4-.jpg
Click to expand...
 
L

Lucky Forward

Member
Rebel Leader said:
It's only accounting the one point of a 3 point plan


SHOW US THE OtHER PARTS YOU SHIT. YOU KEEP TALKING ABOUT THEM BUT NEVER SAY
Click to expand...


Cotton Calls BS On House GOP Repeal Plan: 'There Is No Three-Phase Process'

Sen. Tom Cotton (R-AR) on Tuesday threw cold water on remarks from top Republicans that legislation the Congressional Budget Office gave a dreadful score to is just one of three phases in the process of repealing and replacing Obamacare.

"There is no three-phase process. There is no three-step plan. That is just political talk. It’s just politicians engaging in spin," Cotton told conservative radio host Hugh Hewitt.
Click to expand...
"What the report looked at was only one third of our plan. And that’s why you can’t look at this in isolation," Price said. "The fact of the matter is, with our whole plan, every single American will have access to coverage."

However, Cotton argued that Republicans cannot rely on either subsequent regulations or another piece of legislation. He said that regulations will be "subject to court challenge, and therefore, perhaps the whims of the most liberal judge in America." And he argued that the third, legislative step will never happen, describing it as "some mythical legislation in the future that is going to garner Democratic support and help us get over 60 votes in the Senate."
Click to expand...
 
A

A Serious Man

Member
"Can you explain this aspect of the AHCA?"

"Yes. Obamacare sure is terrible! Next?"

Does this cunt even know how to answer a question? Every response is either "That's a question for someone else" or a rambling deflection that vomits up talking points and falsehoods. He's like Kelly-Anne, except he takes 5 minutes to not say anything instead of just 30 seconds.
 
R

royalan

Member
I also can't help but note what I find to be blatant sexism in that Kellyanne has been expunged from most cable news shows...who then still fawn over every word that comes out of Spicer's mouth, even though he's been proven to be just as bad a liar as Conway, or worse. Worse, in my book.

I get that he's the press secretary, but let's be real: that's basically been Kellyanne's job this whole time, minus being chained to the briefing room.

It's almost like the media hasn't gotten better a covering Trump. They just traded one propaganda pusher for another.
 
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