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PoliGAF 2017 |OT2| Well, maybe McMaster isn't a traitor.

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D

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
Jared Kushner’s Chinese miracle
President Donald Trump has made his son-in-law, Jared Kushner, the administration’s primary point of contact with the Chinese government.

Now a Chinese firm with mysterious ownership structure and suspected ties to the Chinese government has made an “unusually favorable” deal with Kushner’s family real estate company. The deal, an investment in a Manhattan office building, includes a $400 million cash payout to Kushner Companies.

The exceptional transaction between the Chinese firm, Anbang Insurance Group, and Kushner’s family has the appearance of a serious conflict: an effort to buy favor and influence with the Trump administration.
Click to expand...
In the case of the the building involved in Anbang transaction, 666 5th Avenue, Kushner “sold” his assets to his brother and a trust controlled by his mother.

A lawyer told the New York Times that Kushner appeared to be engaging in a “shell game.” By transferring assets to his family members, he could easily re-acquire them at the conclusion of his government service. Absent that, Kushner still has an interest in financial transactions that could benefit his mother or siblings.

An ethically sound divestment strategy would involve transferring the assets to a blind trust where an independent third party administrator would sell the assets. That process, however, would make it virtually impossible to resume ownership.

Moreover, Kushner retains “some real-estate holdings associated with Kushner Companies.” In other words, he retains significant connections to the family business.
Click to expand...
Kushner purchased 666 5th Avenue, his most ambitious deal, right before the financial crisis. It quickly became an albatross and almost sunk his entire company until he was rescued by an experienced developer, Steve Roth of Vornado Reality Trust.

The new deal is to convert the office building to condominiums and retail space. Roth opposed the deal, calling the existing property “a perfectly good performing office building.” He also noted that the conversion would require the building to be vacant for an extended period of time and the market for luxury condos is softening.

That when Anbang, the mysterious Chinese firm, stepped in to the rescue.

Anbang is buying out Roth from the troubled property and giving him a 10-fold return on his investment. The Chinese firm is also making a $400 million cash payout to the Kushner family business, an extremely large figure even for a deal of this size.

Kushner’s debt on the property, now valued at $250 million, will be settled for $50 million. In other words, $200 million will simply be forgiven.

After all of this, the Kushner firm will retain a sizable stake in the new property’s valuable retail space.

Joshua Stein, a New York real estate lawyer, described it as “a home run of a transaction for Kushner and his group.”
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One more way China is likely bribing the White House. Trump gets his long-desired trademarks, Kushner gets an irrationally good real estate deal.
 
J

Joe Shlabotnik

Banned
royalan said:
I also can't help but note what I find to be blatant sexism in that Kellyanne has been expunged from most cable news shows...who then still fawn over every word that comes out of Spicer's mouth, even though he's been proven to be just as bad a liar as Conway, or worse. Worse, in my book.

I get that he's the press secretary, but let's be real: that's basically been Kellyanne's job this whole time, minus being chained to the briefing room.

It's almost like the media hasn't gotten better a covering Trump. They just traded one propaganda pusher for another.
Click to expand...

Well, no, there's a very specific and distinguishable difference between "basically" being the press secretary and actually being the press secretary. It's literally Spicer's official job to be the liaison to the press. They have to interact with him. Conway is an amorphous "adviser" who is only as much a liaison as the press allows her to be.
 
R

royalan

Member
Joe Shlabotnik said:
Well, no, there's a very specific and distinguishable difference between "basically" being the press secretary and actually being the press secretary. It's literally Spicer's official job to be the liaison to the press. They have to interact with him. Conway is an amorphous "adviser" who is only as much a liaison as the press allows her to be.
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They do not.
 
A

AndyD

aka andydumi
royalan said:
They do not.
Click to expand...
They do in the sense of getting an official statement.

Conway started getting blacklisted not because of the spin and lies but because the White House started contradicting her non official statements. When she no longer speaks for them, she lost her value to the press.
 
R

royalan

Member
AndyD said:
They do in the sense of getting an official statement.

Conway started getting blacklisted not because of the spin and lies but because the White House started contradicting her non official statements. When she no longer speaks for them, she lost her value to the press.
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Uhhh, Spicer contradicts Trump and other WH officials all the time. I mean, lets go back to the Muslim ban and how he wasn't on the same page near daily. He's no more reliable a source on an official stance from the White House than Kellyanne was.
 
M

metalslimer

Member
Man Bannon is awful, but I sure do love the schadenfreude of watching Paul Ryan get fucked from all angles.

I wonder how long before Bannon convinces Trump to distance himself completely from this bill leaving Ryan completely alone.
 
S

Slacker

Member
Joy Reid with the tweet of the day:

https://twitter.com/JoyAnnReid/status/841743422134325249

TVRyUcX.jpg
 
S

Sblargh

Banned
I spent 3 hours today debating with a black brazilian Trump supporter who lives in the US where he argued that transexuality is a disease and researches, instead of investigating how they suffer domestic abuse, should be looking for a cure for their condition because it is their condition, and no domestic abuse, that leads to suicide.

This is my life.
Where I went wrong?
Why am I sharing in this thread?
I think I need a support group.
 
G

gutter_trash

Banned
Sblargh said:
I spent 3 hours today debating with a black brazilian Trump supporter who lives in the US where he argued that transexuality is a disease and researches, instead of investigating how they suffer domestic abuse, should be looking for a cure for their condition because it is their condition, and no domestic abuse, that leads to suicide.

This is my life.
Where I went wrong?
Why am I sharing in this thread?
I think I need a support group.
Click to expand...
he sounds like an Evangelical,
South American rise of Conservative religiosity stems from the spread of off-shoot Protestant branches and Evangliclaismssm from the US
 
S

Sblargh

Banned
gutter_trash said:
he sounds like an Evangelical,
South American rise of Conservative religiosity stems from the spread of off-shoot Protestant branches and Evangliclaismssm from the US
Click to expand...

I can't deal with the alternate reality shit:

"This research shows that when they don't suffer abuse at home, they don't kill themselves"
"All kinds of researches are bullshit"
"The APA and the AMA and the DSM all agree that the best course of action is to stay away from cures"
"Ah, beaucrats nobody respect them"
 
C

CygnusXS

will gain confidence one day
Sblargh said:
I spent 3 hours today debating with a black brazilian Trump supporter who lives in the US where he argued that transexuality is a disease and researches, instead of investigating how they suffer domestic abuse, should be looking for a cure for their condition because it is their condition, and no domestic abuse, that leads to suicide.

This is my life.
Where I went wrong?
Why am I sharing in this thread?
I think I need a support group.
Click to expand...
There's a lot of vectors for shitty beliefs out there. It's worth engaging with people, but you also shouldn't expect to convert anybody.
 
S

Sblargh

Banned
CygnusXS said:
There's a lot of vectors for shitty beliefs out there. It's worth engaging with people, but you also shouldn't expect to convert anybody.
Click to expand...

I am phisically tired, the debate went into these weird directions like "what is science? Why should we trust it? What are its methods? What is the definition of 'domestic abuse' anyway? Nobody gets along 100% with their family"

Like on and on, I am posting here due to, I don't know, adrenaline and exaustion, lol, sorry for, wahtever, existing, I guess.
 
C

CrimzonSamurai

Member
Sblargh said:
I am phisically tired, the debate went into these weird directions like "what is science? Why should we trust it? What are its methods? What is the definition of 'domestic abuse' anyway? Nobody gets along 100% with their family"

Like on and on, I am posting here due to, I don't know, adrenaline and exaustion, lol, sorry for, wahtever, existing, I guess.
Click to expand...

Don't apologize. None of us asked to be here anyway. I actively resent my parents for forcing this condition of life upon me.
 
D

DonShula

Member
dramatis said:
NPR made a tracker to show who is supporting and who is opposing the bill.

Go check your local congressperson and senator.
Click to expand...

This thing is blowing my mind. I'd expect almost all of my red state reps to back it, but half are straddling the fence, including a Republican senator just elected in November who's refused to hold town halls, took money from DeVos, and has essentially been in hiding for months. If that guy is putting his hands up in the air, Ryan's got problems.
 
C

CygnusXS

will gain confidence one day
Sblargh said:
I am phisically tired, the debate went into these weird directions like "what is science? Why should we trust it? What are its methods? What is the definition of 'domestic abuse' anyway? Nobody gets along 100% with their family"

Like on and on, I am posting here due to, I don't know, adrenaline and exaustion, lol, sorry for, wahtever, existing, I guess.
Click to expand...
Yeah so there's good faith arguments and bad faith arguments, and that person was not utilizing the former.

But we've all been in your shoes with that. You ever need help with a political argument, this thread is a good place to ask.
 
P

pigeon

Banned
CygnusXS said:
Yeah so there's good faith arguments and bad faith arguments, and that person was not utilizing the former.

But we've all been in your shoes with that. You ever need help with a political argument, this thread is a good place to ask.
Click to expand...

The answer is that they're racist
 
W

Wilsongt

Member
Steve KKKing needs to learn when to shut up.

Rep. Steve King (R-IA), of newfound "somebody else's babies" infamy, said on Monday that black and Hispanic populations "will be fighting each other" before outnumbering the population of white people in the United States.
Click to expand...
 
E

East Lake

Member
Sblargh said:
I am phisically tired, the debate went into these weird directions like "what is science? Why should we trust it? What are its methods? What is the definition of 'domestic abuse' anyway? Nobody gets along 100% with their family"

Like on and on, I am posting here due to, I don't know, adrenaline and exaustion, lol, sorry for, wahtever, existing, I guess.
Click to expand...
Even if you watch debates by serious academics on youtube or wherever they end up having this problem. For example "what is valid science" might not be agreed upon but only ends up briefly mentioned in an large set of arguments, a lot of which go unexamined.

But to go off an another tangent! Your ability to argue I think might get clouded by your conception of yourself. For example you see scientific denial in this guy and yourself as one who respects science, and therefore you're the rational one. But do you really know what science is and how it operates, or where its grey areas are? The person you debated could be entangled in his views but you might not be so different!
 
S

Sblargh

Banned
East Lake said:
Even if you watch debates by serious academics on youtube or wherever they end up having this problem. For example "what is valid science" might not be agreed upon but only ends up briefly mentioned in an large set of arguments, a lot of which go unexamined.

But to go off an another tangent! Your ability to argue I think might get clouded by your conception of yourself. For example you see scientific denial in this guy and yourself as one who respects science, and therefore you're the rational one. But do you really know what science is and how it operates, or where its grey areas are? The person you debated could be entangled in his views but you might not be so different!
Click to expand...

I study philosophy of science. I was at my best Kuhnian "there needs to be a certain degree of consensus". To be specific, my problem isn't even when people "doubt" certain studies or whatever, but when they go full on "we can't trust this century old scientific institution because that one time I saw an article that was bullshit".

I am aware of the complexities of the question, I get caught off guard when you show an study and the answer is simply "yeah, I reject this study", "why?" "they are infiltrated by politicians!"
 
A

AntraxSuicide

Banned
Sblargh said:
I am phisically tired, the debate went into these weird directions like "what is science? Why should we trust it? What are its methods? What is the definition of 'domestic abuse' anyway? Nobody gets along 100% with their family"

Like on and on, I am posting here due to, I don't know, adrenaline and exaustion, lol, sorry for, wahtever, existing, I guess.
Click to expand...

Don't get gaslit by these people either. It's their job to educate themselves, not your job to coddle them to a conclusion that cursory investigation would provide. If someone walks up to you saying "The Earth is the center of the universe" it's on them to back themselves up and the consequences of not doing so are theirs as well.

I've heard a ton of BS from rural whites (as I'm a rural white guy who's lived here since birth) and a shit ton of them like to use the "well, nobody ever explains to me what blacks want if it's not rioting/crime/etc..." and that's a form of gaslighting. It's no one's job but that person to learn about their fellow man, and it's on them if people get mad at them for their ignorance. Same with trans issues; I've got family who still think it's just crossdressers who look like Bubba Moon trying to cop a feel. They get mad at me because I'm mad at them over it, but that's bullshit; they can do a basic level of research into these things. They just don't want to.
 
E

East Lake

Member
Sblargh said:
I study philosophy of science. I was at my best Kuhnian "there needs to be a certain degree of consensus". To be specific, my problem isn't even when people "doubt" certain studies or whatever, but when they go full on "we can't trust this century old scientific institution because that one time I saw an article that was bullshit".

I am aware of the complexities of the question, I get caught off guard when you show an study and the answer is simply "yeah, I reject this study", "why?" "they are infiltrated by politicians!"
Click to expand...
My suggestion would be do sort of slow down the debate then and maybe be happy with arguing fewer points. Lets say in a rebuttal you get five separate points, one of which happens to be "I don't trust this institution because they published X". Pick that argument and focus on it. For example if he brought up evidence from another institution earlier, ask him if it would be fair to throw out all its research for one paper he didn't agree with and ask whether it fair to evaluate information that way. The answer is no but you have to find a way to draw it out and its harder if you have to argue every single claim.
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
mnannola said:
If this was a TV show about corrupt politicians this address would be seen as not subtle enough.
Click to expand...

I'd like to see all of these types of things compiled into one long impossible to believe and yet factually accurate movie.
 
O

Ogodei

Member
Blader said:
Cotton's opposition to the AHCA - and more surprisingly, the reasons for his opposition - has been one hell of a plot twist in this whole thing.
Click to expand...

Arkansas is like West Virginia, red as hell but the Senators are smart enough to know that most of their voters rely on this stuff to live, and it wasn't so long ago that Arkansas was willing to elect Democrats that Cotton can act like the House Republicans and just assume that their only possible challenge is from the right.
 
V

Vixdean

Member
This has got to be the most puzzling thing to the rest of the developed world. Why do the Americans spend so much time arguing about health care?
 
B

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
Vixdean said:
This has got to be the most puzzling thing to the rest of the developed world. Why do the Americans spend so much time arguing about health care?
Click to expand...

Prosperity gospel is probably at the core of it.

Well no, racism is at the core of it. Prosperity gospel is just above it.
 
O

OceanBlue

Member
Vixdean said:
This has got to be the most puzzling thing to the rest of the developed world. Why do the Americans spend so much time arguing about health care?
Click to expand...

To Paul Ryan, we can't let the poor afford medical checkups or else they won't work. The less comfortable their lives are, the better.
 
A

AntraxSuicide

Banned
B-Dubs said:
Prosperity gospel is probably at the core of it.

Well no, racism is at the core of it. Prosperity gospel is just above it.
Click to expand...

And we don't really have it in our cultural background. We're a frontier nation at our core; it's why we're gung-ho about guns, personal independence, free markets, etc... This country was founded on the idea that a handful of well-off white men could tell the world around them to fuck off and nothing would happen to them. It's hard to buck that.
 
C

CrimzonSamurai

Member
Anyone else read this Washington Post story on what Glenn Beck is up to? Face-turn of the highest caliber.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/life...eck-11a:homepage/story&utm_term=.6cd1b279fe99

“I did and said terrible things,” Beck says. “I did my thinking out loud and it’s one of my worst aspects. But I haven’t changed my principles. I’ve changed the way I phrase things — for example, I’m trying to ban the word ‘evil’ from my lexicon. I didn’t notice how my language could be interpreted by half the country as racist. I lacked humility. I was the height of arrogance.”
Click to expand...
 
C

CrimzonSamurai

Member
I use "face turn" specifically to imply a lack of genuinity. As one of the guys quoted in the article says the dude is a method actor. Just reminds me that the purpose of his gig on Fox was to be the right's answer to John Stewart.

Still if enough idiots listened to him once maybe they will again. It's also interesting that he admits he said racist things. Can count the number of prominent right wing pundits that have made mea culpas on that charge on one hand.
 
B

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
CrimzonSamurai said:
I use "face turn" specifically to imply a lack of genuinity. As one of the guys quoted in the article says the dude is a method actor. Just reminds me that the purpose of his gig on Fox was to be the right's answer to John Stewart.

Still if enough idiots listened to him once maybe they will again. It's also interesting that he admits he said racist things. Can count the number of prominent right wing pundits that have made mea culpas on that charge on one hand.
Click to expand...

That list basically consists of Beck and no one else though.
 
P

pigeon

Banned
Wilsongt said:
Lots of youtubers lately showing their alt-right tendencies...

Thankfully it's none that I like.
Click to expand...

It's so surprising that people that literally spend eight hours a day interacting with the people who populate Twitch chat are turning out to be crazy alt-righters!
 
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