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PoliGAF 2017 |OT6| Made this thread during Harvey because the ratings would be higher

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pigeon

Banned
Basileus777 said:
I'm not sure where you are pulling that 70% of Americans will receive a tax increase from.
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That is what the post you responded to says. 70% of Americans currently receive employer-provided health insurance as compensation in kind. They will lose that compensation in kind. Because of sticky wages, they will probably not have that compensation replaced by compensation in cash right away (and because capitalism is strangling us all they might not ever see it replaced).

They will also receive government-funded healthcare, which will no doubt mean increased taxes.

Your response to this was that those people probably should pay more taxes. That is what I was commenting on! "Those people" are 70% of America.
 
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Basileus777

Member
pigeon said:
That is what the post you responded to says. 70% of Americans currently receive employer-provided health insurance as compensation in kind. They will lose that compensation in kind. Because of sticky wages, they will probably not have that compensation replaced by compensation in cash right away (and because capitalism is strangling us all they might not ever see it replaced).

They will also receive government-funded healthcare, which will no doubt mean increased taxes.

Your response to this was that those people probably should pay more taxes. That is what I was commenting on! "Those people" are 70% of America.
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My response was to a vague statement that I did not interpret so broadly. I'm one of those people you describe and would take a tax increase for the guarantee of universal single payer health insurance. I would like to see a suggestion for how a federal bill would improve their wages. I've yet to see anything concrete as an alternative.
 
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pigeon

Banned
Basileus777 said:
My response was to a vague statement that I did not interpret so broadly. I'm one of those people you describe. I would like to see a suggestion for how a federal bill would improve their wages. I've yet to see anything concrete as an alternative.
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Personally, I'd recommend a basic income to give them the bargaining power necessary to push through sticky wages.
 
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Basileus777

Member
pigeon said:
Personally, I'd recommend a basic income to give them the bargaining power necessary to push through sticky wages.
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I'm with you here, but are we really objecting to this bill because it's not attached to a universal basic income? And if we're talking about incremental steps, detaching wages from health insurance is a good step!
 
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pigeon

Banned
Basileus777 said:
I'm with you here, but are we really objecting to this bill because it's not attached to a universal basic income?
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I mean, this seems like a pretty reasonable objection to make to any bill ever, but it's especially relevant when we're talking about large-scale disruptive changes to compensation, yeah.

As I noted, I am in favor of passing some version of this bill, but I think the version I envision passing immediately probably doesn't include the part where all private insurance becomes illegal. Expanding it down just for people over 45 will give us a lot more understanding of how to work out the various kinks in the process of providing Medicare to currently working people and making their current insurance illegal.
 
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Basileus777

Member
pigeon said:
I mean, this seems like a pretty reasonable objection to make to any bill ever, but it's especially relevant when we're talking about large-scale disruptive changes to compensation, yeah.

As I noted, I am in favor of passing some version of this bill, but I think the version I envision passing immediately probably doesn't include the part where all private insurance becomes illegal. Expanding it down just for people over 45 will give us a lot more understanding of how to work out the various kinks in the process of providing Medicare to currently working people and making their current insurance illegal.
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I don't agree with banning all private insurance either (this wasn't even brought up prior to this), but no I wouldn't say that radical ideas like a basic income are a typical objection to bring up. I'd like to get to a spot where a basic income was in the cards, but I don't see that as feasible, yet I believe those loosening the connection between employment and healthcare is a worthwhile goal even if wages won't immediately rise in compensation.
 
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Poodlestrike

Banned
Y'know, one way to accommodate for sticky wages would be to stretch out the transition; as more and more people move to extremely affordable federal health care, companies will find their bargaining power shrinking under current arrangements as the value of health insurance as compensation drops. Long-term, the market would probably kill all but the most premium employer plans all by itself.

I was going to do a sarcastic bit about the public option, but I realized I'd have to retype the above and I can't be assed.
 
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shinra-bansho

Member
I have both universal healthcare and buy private insurance.

So yeh, from a ideological perspective I can see why it's there, but from a practical standpoint it seems unnecessary.
 
O

Ogodei

Member
pigeon said:
That is what the post you responded to says. 70% of Americans currently receive employer-provided health insurance as compensation in kind. They will lose that compensation in kind. Because of sticky wages, they will probably not have that compensation replaced by compensation in cash right away (and because capitalism is strangling us all they might not ever see it replaced).

They will also receive government-funded healthcare, which will no doubt mean increased taxes.

Your response to this was that those people probably should pay more taxes. That is what I was commenting on! "Those people" are 70% of America.
Click to expand...

It's a simple matter of taxing employers for the difference. Most of the tax hikes should be in payroll or in business taxes. Yeah, payroll tax directly hits salary, but healthcare is an in-kind surcharge that almost all employers are stuck paying. Just try to fix the ratio so that it evens out at middle-income salaries.
 
A

AntraxSuicide

Banned
Crab said:
'we should vote this down...'
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Basileus777 said:
I'm with you here, but are we really objecting to this bill
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This isn't accurate.

It's been awhile since PoliGAF got to just discuss legislation that wasn't immediately terrible (that is, GOP legislation), but this is a discussion where we (at least myself, and I don't see anyone who might disagree with what I'm about to say) are workshopping a bill that I think we'd all vote yes on regardless.

That doesn't mean it's perfect or can't be improved!
 
S

SatelliteOfLove

Member
Basileus777 said:
Blue slips are ridiculous. Mitch disregarding them is fine, it's the Democrats who should be ashamed for giving them credence.
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No, it's not really fine. Never forget the reason you're fine with them gone: he's been flagrantly ignoring or undermining generations-old Senate traditions by whipping his caucus into first footdragging slamdunk appointees, then refusing to even allow a Supreme Court judge nominee into commitee, then removed the supermajority vote for SCOTUSs, now this.

So yeah, when there's a D-D-X lineup there's smooth sailing (notice unlike this shitshow) but any time it's D-R-X or R-D-X the wheels of appointment will grind to a halt just like 2015/16.

Hell, I'm actually amazed the vast majority of judges ain't been loony far-right whackjobs so far. The Senate has these traditions for a reason, and McConnell has done horrific damage, not only in action, but in precedence.
 
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Basileus777

Member
SatelliteOfLove said:
No, it's not really fine. Never forget the reason you're fine with them gone: he's been flagrantly ignoring or undermining generations-old Senate traditions by whipping his caucus into first footdragging slamdunk appointees, then refusing to even allow a Supreme Court judge nominee into commitee, then removed the supermajority vote for SCOTUSs, now this.

So yeah, when there's a D-D-X lineup there's smooth sailing (notice unlike this shitshow) but any time it's D-R-X or R-D-X the wheels of appointment will grind to a halt just like 2015/16.

Hell, I'm actually amazed the vast majority of judges ain't been loony far-right whackjobs so far. The Senate has these traditions for a reason, and McConnell has done horrific damage, not only in action, but in precedence.
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None of this has anything to do with blue slips being ridiculous and our government being better off with them gone. Republicans ignored them under GWB too, that they were ever reinstated under Democratic ruled congress is an embarrassment. It's a terrible practice that makes no sense even if McConnell cared about Senate norms.
 
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Poodlestrike

Banned
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Spoiled Milk

Banned
I think the need to outright ban private insurance in Bernie Sanders' plan is indicative of his nauseating obsession with righteous municipalization. Most of us in here probably agree that public insurance will outcompete private insurance for most uses, so the only places where private insurance will survive are those places where it will more efficiently provide its service than the government ever can or want to. In this respect I think Sanders represents, as many have complained before, an economically illiterate wing of leftism more concerned with socialist provenance than actualization of societal progressivism.

In other words I will be writing in pigeon's name if Bernie is ever a serious contender again.
 
R

Randolph Freelander

Member
Michael Cohen‏ @speechboy71 4 minutes ago
Schumer: We'll trade you this shiny thing in my hand for DACA legislation
Trump: I don't know
Pelosi: The press will love it
Trump: Deal!
 
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BoboBrazil

Member
smokeymicpot said:
BREAKING: Schumer, Pelosi announce deal with Trump to protect young immigrants; will include border security, but no wall.

https://twitter.com/ap/status/908147079758925825
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I think ap is jumping the gun? This is their statement

DJph5swXcAACdZ1.jpg
 
I

Ithil

Member
If you give us whatever we want, you can have what's inside this box:

216732.jpg


DEAL!

Inside are articles of impeachment.
 
S

Slacker

Member
When this long national nightmare is over (assuming the USA isn't a smoking crater where a country used to be), Nancy and Chuck are going to be seen as political masterminds, playing Trump like a fiddle. It's genius - he's desperate to say he accomplished something... ANYTHING, and they're happy to help. Meanwhile Republicans are too stupid or intransigent to do the same. I'd be lovin' it, were I able to ignore the fact that Trump will still find a way to destroy us all eventually.
 
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Slacker

Member
Calling it early - assuming Trump is still in office (and as mentioned above we're not all dead), Democrats will convince Trump to support a public option/single payer within the next year.
 
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Ithil

Member
Geist- said:
DJpqBNEVYAEOT39.jpg:large

lol
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Love that he says "wages!" yet doesn't support the raising of the minimum wage. Also still marrying himself to that 15% that will never happen and no one in the Republican side is even talking about.

Also, China has a rate of 25%, not 15.
 
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