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PoliGAF 2017 |OT6| Made this thread during Harvey because the ratings would be higher

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W

whyamihere

Banned
Heidi's new campaign photo for 2018 is STUN.

bBAyJFwf_400x400.jpg
 
D

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
wutwutwut said:
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/9/13/16297228/bernie-sanders-medicare-single-payer
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Jeff Stein
One concern I've heard — and I'm curious for your reaction to — is a lot of union representatives have health care deals that have taken brutal toil and sweat to win, to force their employers to give them these agreements for health care benefits.

All of a sudden they're getting hit with a tax increase from this bill, while also maybe losing the benefits they had to negotiate for. How do you assure those folks?

Bernie Sanders
I understand that. And that's a legitimate concern.

What you're saying is that over the years, an employer may say, “You’re going to get a raise or a wage increase, or we’re going to maintain or not hurt you so much in terms of health.” I do understand that concern.

I think what we can also say [is] that right now if you look at a lot of the labor disputes that go on, very often they have to do with health care. They have to do with employers saying, hey, you know what, we're raising deductibles, raise your copayments. And sometimes we are seeing strikes just around those issues.

So I think what we can say to those workers is they will be better off financially and that their business that they work for will be better off financially. One of the things we don't talk about is that American companies today have got to compete in a global economy in which in most instances, but not all, their competition does not have to worry about providing health insurance to their workers because their governments do that.

Jeff Stein
So just to stay on this point for one more second, how do you ensure workers that their bosses won’t just pocket this? How do you make sure?

Bernie Sanders
I mean, this is a big issue, and we are introducing comprehensive legislation at a time when we have Donald Trump as president, who wanted to throw 32 million people off the health insurance. You know, Mitch McConnell, Paul Ryan, running the Senate and the House. We're not going to get this thing done with these guys in power.

And what we are doing is taking an idea out to the American people, and you're going to see a lot of discussion about these ideas and [a] lot of refinement of what we are talking about. But I think that any serious discussion of where we are today, in terms of the dysfunctionality of the system, in terms of the cost of this system, will suggest that going forward will be a significant improvement.
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He might as well said he has absolutely no idea how to address these concerns, and may in fact not even be interested in trying.
 
T

teiresias

Member
Joe Shlabotnik said:
I suspect he put the banning of private insurance in there as a big fat turkey to absorb all of the birdshot fired against the bill.
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The last thing Dems need is for the fat turkey to be the standard "Libs want to kill the free market" talking point. I mean, really?

Dan said:
He might as well said he has absolutely no idea how to address these concerns, and may in fact not even be interested in trying.
Click to expand...

Pretty much, waffles as much as I'd expect from him when it comes to actually having to address implementation issues even one inch below the surface of the "grand idea" of the bill.
 
P

Plinko

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
Dan said:
He might as well said he has absolutely no idea how to address these concerns, and may in fact not even be interested in trying.
Click to expand...

So just to stay on this point for one more second, how do you ensure workers that their bosses won’t just pocket this? How do you make sure?

Bernie Sanders
I mean, this is a big issue, and we are introducing comprehensive legislation at a time when we have Donald Trump as president, who wanted to throw 32 million people off the health insurance. You know, Mitch McConnell, Paul Ryan, running the Senate and the House. We're not going to get this thing done with these guys in power.

And what we are doing is taking an idea out to the American people, and you're going to see a lot of discussion about these ideas and [a] lot of refinement of what we are talking about. But I think that any serious discussion of where we are today, in terms of the dysfunctionality of the system, in terms of the cost of this system, will suggest that going forward will be a significant improvement
Click to expand...

My goodness talk about an all-time classic hand-wave. It's clear he has no idea how to make that happen.
 
T

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Plinko said:
My goodness talk about an all-time classic hand-wave. It's clear he has no idea how to make that happen.
Click to expand...

I mean it is the very exact Bernie Sanders problem to not think people's concerns about the good thing you want to do really exist because everyone actually supports your good thing
 
A

AndyD

aka andydumi
The Technomancer said:
I mean it is the very exact Bernie Sanders problem to not think people's concerns about the good thing you want to do really exist because everyone actually supports your good thing
Click to expand...

This is spot on. Although people support the idea, there is certainly room for criticism, questioning and need for detail. All those are compatible with support for the thing in an of itself. But perhaps not in a purist society.
 
P

Plinko

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
DJoF7IIX0AIw7Bx.jpg:small


I have to admit I'm somewhat surprised here. Pelosi/Schumer effect?
 
W

wutwutwut

Member
Dan said:
He might as well said he has absolutely no idea how to address these concerns, and may in fact not even be interested in trying.
Click to expand...
Hillary was 100% correct.

Ezra Klein

Democrats are going to face a question like this very soon. Bernie Sanders is proposing his single-payer bill this week. And a lot of Senate Democrats are expected to sign on to the bill. This bill would be quite sweeping; it would upend every private insurance arrangement in America. Do you think that the Democratic party should sign on, even aspirationally, to a bill that is that radical in its vision?

Hillary Clinton

Well, I don’t know what the particulars are. As you might remember, during the campaign he introduced a single-payer bill every year he was in Congress — and when somebody finally read it, he couldn’t explain it and couldn’t really tell people how much it was going to cost.
Click to expand...
 
D

Dan

No longer boycotting the Wolfenstein franchise
Plinko said:
My goodness talk about an all-time classic hand-wave. It's clear he has no idea how to make that happen.
Click to expand...
The Technomancer said:
I mean it is the very exact Bernie Sanders problem to not think people's concerns about the good thing you want to do really exist because everyone actually supports your good thing
Click to expand...
wutwutwut said:
Hillary was 100% correct.
Click to expand...
Yeah... that little excerpt is a great distillation of why I was never on the Bernie wagon. "Don't look at those problems, details, and practical concerns, focus on the dream!"
 
N

neurosisxeno

Member
Dan said:
Yeah... that little excerpt is a great distillation of why I was never on the Bernie wagon. "Don't look at those problems, details, and practical concerns, focus on the dream!"
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I love Bernie to death (voted for him for the Senate and VT Primary, donated to his campaign, etc) but he's not great at giving substance. He has good ideas and horrendous ability to explain why they are necessary or how he's going to effectively do them.
 
H

Holmes

Member
It's a bit early for a primary debate, lol

But I don't think Cordray would be a good candidate. He has Hillary's issues. He's great on paper but Republicans despise him and are already trying to take him down. If he announced, they'll go scorched earth and it'll be messy.
 
V

Vimes

Member
I'm still catching up on the news of the day, but it's starting to look like Sanders is fucking up our golden moment and his fan club is already primed to blame Pelosi.
 
A

Armaros

Member
benicillin said:
I imagine if people thought it was fucking it all up all of the obvious candidates for 2020 wouldn't have signed on to the bill.
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I don't really believe Bernie is going to ruin it.

I believe his 'Agree or else' supporters are going to mess it up by causing the public to think that this is final product. By acting like it is. Even when Bernie has all but directly said that this is work in progress

Not to mention the ammo given to the GOP. 'Dems want to outlaw an entire industry in the US!'
 
A

AndyD

aka andydumi
Baron von Loathsome said:
I'll believe it when I see it.
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Same here. It will have some buried deductions/exceptions for sure. Or it will be higher earned income taxes for the wealthy, for the soundbite, but lower investment income taxes, or do away with estate taxes, so in reality it will be a break.

And none of this brings into the discussion corporations and for example repatriation of offshore funds.
 
Emerson

Emerson

May contain jokes =>
You know what sounds awful to just about every middle class American ? The idea of having to pay more into Medicare, losing your employer insurance, and the employer keeping the money they used to spend on healthcare rather than adding it to your pay.

This bill is pretty much public opinion poison IMO.
 
P

pigeon

Banned
Armaros said:
I don't really believe Bernie is going to ruin it.

I believe his 'Agree or else' supporters are going to mess it up by causing the public to think that this is final product. By acting like it is. Even when Bernie has all but directly said that this is work in progress

Not to mention the ammo given to the GOP. 'Dems want to outlaw an entire industry in the US!'
Click to expand...

I really feel like this is a little wild. Bernie supporters will mostly follow Bernie's lead, and Bernie is being very politically careful on this.
 
T

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
pigeon said:
I really feel like this is a little wild. Bernie supporters will mostly follow Bernie's lead, and Bernie is being very politically careful on this.
Click to expand...

Bernie supporters are probably going to be fine

A certain number of leftists on the internet are going to be insufferable about a few things and we'll just get through this
 
W

whyamihere

Banned
the funny think about Trump being above 40% in Gallup (still terrible!) is that this was literally the only time he wasn't in the news because of Harvey/Irma.
 
B

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
whyamihere said:
the funny think about Trump being above 40% in Gallup (still terrible!) is that this was literally the only time he wasn't in the news because of Harvey/Irma.
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Yup. Plus they didn't turn into Katrina 2.0 and 3.0, so he wound up looking half-way competent for a few days as a result.
 
T

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
Well here's a terrifying fucking piece from Jeet Heer

https://newrepublic.com/article/144...hite-house-never-rid-trump-represents-america

It’s understandable, and perhaps even necessary, that we have devoted ourselves so thoroughly to the question of how to remove Trump from office as quickly as possible. He poses, after all, an existential threat to—well, existence itself. But the dream of bringing about an end to Trump’s era in Washington is tinged with something darker and more worrisome. If we’re honest with ourselves, we must admit that we don’t just want Trump gone from the White House—we want to return to a time when Trump did not dominate our every waking moment. We want it all to go away: the endless Twitter rants; the bellicose threats against perceived enemies, foreign and domestic; the toxic brew of narcissism and incompetence and greed that has come to permeate the national discourse. The desire to oust Trump, at a deeper level, represents a liberal fantasy in which we can somehow magically, instantly turn back the clock and live once more in the comforting world of our pre-Trump assumptions. In this fetching version of harmony restored, not only will Trump no longer be president, he’ll no longer have been president. He will vanish from public life, and the hobgoblins he has unleashed in our national psyche will disappear along with him.

Yet even as the prospect of his removal becomes ever more palpable, we must awaken from this blue-state reverie we have constructed for ourselves. The truth is, no matter how he winds up leaving office, Donald Trump will always be with us. We may, unless there is nuclear Armageddon, outlast his presidency. Robert Mueller’s investigation may even shorten it. But we can’t repeal or replace it. Long after his presidency ends—indeed, long after he has departed this vale of tweets for that gloriously appointed Mar-a-Lago in the sky—Trump will continue to dominate and disrupt our lives at every turn. Because he’s Trump, being a former president will do nothing to diminish his desperate need for attention or his willingness to hurt whomever it takes to get it. He’ll still have his gifts as a showman, his wealth, his mastery of social media, and the unshakable devotion of his followers. And the media will remain just as eager to report and dissect and amplify his every untruth and slander. Indeed, freed from the shackles of the Constitution, Trump could end up provoking even more havoc out of office than he has as president.
Click to expand...

All Trump ever wanted to do was to play the president, a role that will be immeasurably easier once he’s actually out of office. Sarah Palin tried and failed to become a TV star after leaving office. Trump enacted that strategy in reverse. As ex-president, he will be perfectly positioned to return to his natural habitat, the simulacrum of “reality TV.” It’s not hard to imagine Trump TV as a ceaseless and influential presence in the cable landscape, tugging Fox News and the rest of the media even further to the right. Every day, Trump could sit in a mock Oval Office and explain how his successor is failing miserably, how terrible all politicians are, how he—and the American people—have been betrayed. He would become America’s ruling maestro of resentment, the nurturer of white male grievance in an increasingly diverse world.
Click to expand...
 
B

Basileus777

Member
Dan said:
He might as well said he has absolutely no idea how to address these concerns, and may in fact not even be interested in trying.
Click to expand...

Eh, that's going a bit too far. There's nothing to be done legislatively on this issue, things will have to be adjusted when unions have to negotiate their next agreement.
 
B

B-Dubs

No Scrubs
chadskin said:
Enjoy this mental image...

https://twitter.com/mkraju/status/908066904933355520
Click to expand...

So, when do we get the tweet where he's ordering a dildo then?

Basileus777 said:
Eh, that's going a bit too far. There's nothing to be done legislatively on this issue, things will have to be adjusted when unions have to negotiate their next agreement.
Click to expand...

And for everyone who isn't in a union? They just lose out on compensation then? This is absolutely something that needs to be dealt with at the legislative level.
 
B

Barzul

Member
@kaitlancollins

Trump told House members that funding for the border wall doesn't need to be tied to a DACA fix, Rep. Cuellar tells reporters after meeting.
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Democrats really need to get this done while it's hot in the news.
 
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