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[pigeon]

Are West Wingers people who espouse dumb conventional wisdom without any thought behind it so they feel they can contribute to the conversation?

That's the opposite of the West Wing! West Wing is all about the fetishes for legal process, technocratic expertise, and bipartisan centrism!

I think of West Wingers as people who believe that the problem is just that Democrats don't fight enough and don't want stuff hard enough or talk enough about how great progressivism is, which I feel like came up a whole lot in the show.

But I guess it might contain multitudes.

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

I think of West Wingers as people who believe that the problem is just that Democrats don't fight enough and don't want stuff hard enough or talk enough about how great progressivism is, which I feel like came up a whole lot in the show.

But I guess it might contain multitudes.

I have always understood West Wing-ism as largely being about transcending ideology and how the best outcomes come from people of opposing viewpoints having friendly debate and compromising

I mean the show has a part where the heroic brave decision is to make big Social Security cuts even though it would be unpopular with the left, which is like, the opposite of fighting for progressivism!

Admittedly I only watched like 3 and a half seasons so maybe it changes when Sorkin leaves.

 

[The Technomancer]

I mean "people who aren't worried about upcoming accountability to their constituents on the matter of healthcare are in support of single payer healthcare" is not a ringing endorsement of its smooth viability I guess? Its possible, obviously, and a thing we should do, but like many things I don't think the decision to go full in on it was an obvious one

 

[Ernest]

I'm going through some serious oppo withdrawals!
If some hot, juicy oppo doesn't droppo soon, I may just completely ignore all this Trump shit all together. God knows I'll at least have more peace of mind

 

[AntraxSuicide]

I mean "people who aren't worried about upcoming accountability to their constituents on the matter of healthcare are in support of single payer healthcare" is not a ringing endorsement of its smooth viability I guess? Its possible, obviously, and a thing we should do, but like many things I don't think the decision to go full in on it was an obvious one

Yeah, I'm less convinced after reading that.

 

[pigeon]

I have always understood West Wing-ism as largely being about transcending ideology and how the best outcomes come from people of opposing viewpoints having friendly debate and compromising

I mean the show has a part where the heroic brave decision is to make big Social Security cuts even though it would be unpopular with the left, which is like, the opposite of fighting for progressivism!

Admittedly I only watched like 3 and a half seasons so maybe it changes when Sorkin leaves.

Eh, I agree that the element of believing that both parties are basically full of good people who differ on means to an end is also heavily present. But it also has an episode where they make peace in the Middle East by just talking to people enough. I think it probably includes both types of fuckery.

Which makes it the perfect epithet, because everybody can just call everybody else the same thing! Super efficient!

 

[jtb]

Sorkin sucks.

 

[jack_package_200]

Sorkin sucks.

Social Network tho

 

[The Technomancer]

I mean let me be clear, I think we can pass dramatic healthcare reform. If not single payer exactly at the very least a robust and extensive public option. But I think there is going to be a negotiation within the Democratic party about the contents of the bill, one that neuters some parts of it we care about, and one that is not unrepresentative of the wishes of constituents (largely from reps who don't want to raise taxes because their voters don't want to raise taxes)

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

Sorkin sucks.

the real bipartisanship that the show could foster

 

[Pixieking]

Weeeee... It's already the 12th in Malaysia, so I've just started reading Hillary's book.

I'm already depressed. Again.

W was first to ring after her concession speech, and suggested they go out for (commiseration) burgers sometime.

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

W was first to ring after her concession speech, and suggested they go out for (commiseration) burgers sometime.

was Kissinger busy

 

[Box of Kittens]

I remember reading a post once where someone complained about PoliGAF as "jerking off over Alan Sorkin quotes" or something like that. I was confused because in my experience almost all of us hate Sorkin.

 

[Emarv]

Social Network tho

^

 

[Pixieking]

was Kissinger busy

Ohhhh, I see what you did there.

First chapter is inauguration and Women's March.

One thing I've learned over the years is how easy it is for some people to say horrible things about me when I'm not around, but how hard it is for them to look me in the eye and say it to my face.

That would be the dehumanising effects of sexism, m'dear.

Edit:

I wanted to stare right in her eyes and say "You didn't vote? How could you not vote?! You abdicated your responsibility as a citizen at the worst possible time! And now you want me to make you feel better?" Of course I didn't say any of that.

These people were looking for absolution that I just couldn't give. We all have to live with the consequences of our decisions.

This is at the end of the paragraph just after the "Where was all the solidarity" quote going round on Twitter, and I think recontextualises that. She views voting as a duty every citizen has, and not voting against Trump was a double-failure of that duty.

Second chapter is day concession speech.

 

[dakini]

I know we knew that Gillibrand said she supported Medicare for all, but was it posted that she's going to cosponsor Bernie's bill?

https://mic.com/articles/184379/sen...rnie-sanders-medicare-for-all-bill#.M3aROofOd

 

[balladofwindfishes]

I have this sneaking suspicion this is 2020's litmus test bill

 

[Crocodile]

I am confused when I read things like, "What does the Democratic Party stand for other being against Trump? What do Democrats believe in on Issues X, Y, and Z?" Because I feel like I understand exactly what the party stands for. Healthcare? A right, not a privilege. Climate change? It's real, we need to take action now vis-a-vis renewables, cutting CO2 emissions, etc. Planned Parenthood? Keep funding it. Citizens United? Poisoning our democracy. Minimum wage? Raise it right now.

I get that there's debate within these debates (single-payer vs. public option, $12 minimum wage vs. $15, etc.) but the framing around this narrative always seems to be that there's no message to the Democratic Party on anything, which, unless I'm imagining everything I wrote above, just seems really untrue.

It's pundits being pundits with their heads up their butts and wanting to talk about something other than how shitty Trump/GOP are.

tfw you're going to sign a M4A bill and become the most popular president in all of history

I mean, banning cars is a great and desirable policy outcome but it lacks the necessary political will because it would be unpopular. Single payer would be very popular with people who vote Democrat already and potentially appealing to people who don't vote because it would make their lives noticeably better. It lacks the political will because Democratic politicians don't want to pass it for other reasons (like, for instance, the personal wealth they can generate from being cozy with people benefiting from our terrible healthcare system).

To be honest I have a hard time taking the "single payer is impossible" argument all that seriously when serious and knowledgeable Democrats who aren't worried about electoral politics anymore just say it's the better option. I mean, Max fucking Baucus just said Democrats should do single payer.

I also find comparisons between state governments and the federal government here pretty disingenuous, which is surprising coming from you. States can't print their own money and have much more to feat from capital flight!

Single-Payer is popular now but things get complicated when you explain to people you have to raise taxes and that if they like their current employer health insurance they are going to lose it. That isn't to say not try or that single-payer (which again isn't the only way to push for UHC) isn't good but rather a good politician has to anticipate the upcoming debate and pushback if they want a chance of this actually becoming law. The numbers in support of single payer have a good chance of decreasing soon.

 

[Aaron Strife]

That's the opposite of the West Wing! West Wing is all about the fetishes for legal process, technocratic expertise, and bipartisan centrism!

I think of West Wingers as people who believe that the problem is just that Democrats don't fight enough and don't want stuff hard enough or talk enough about how great progressivism is, which I feel like came up a whole lot in the show.

But I guess it might contain multitudes.

Yeah pigeon's definition is more what I had in mind when I saw that.

I'd see people online all the time ask "why can't Obama be more like Jed Bartlet?" Because Bartlet is a fictional fucking character.

 

[Plinko]

I have this sneaking suspicion this is 2020's litmus test bill

Yep. I have a feeling this is going to screw over anyone who doesn't sign on.

 

[Wilsongt]

I have this sneaking suspicion this is 2020's litmus test bill

Please no.

Bernie Sanders done have done fucked up Democrats.,

 

[Ogodei]

Yeah pigeon's definition is more what I had in mind when I saw that.

I'd see people online all the time ask "why can't Obama be more like Jed Bartlet?" Because Bartlet is a fictional fucking character.

Sad thing is Obama believed he could be, it feels like.

 

[Y2Kev]

Yep. I have a feeling this is going to screw over anyone who doesn't sign on.

Any dem who can't sign onto this probably shouldn't run imo.

 

[Funkyhamster]

Didn't see this posted yet:

Wall Street Journal: Some Trump Lawyers Wanted Kushner Out

Some of President Donald Trump’s lawyers earlier this summer concluded that Jared Kushner should step down as senior White House adviser because of possible legal complications related to a probe of Russia’s involvement in the 2016 presidential election and aired concerns about him to the president, people familiar with the matter said.

Stinkles, is this what your psychic barber was talking about? Ben Wittes gave it a "Boom!" on Twitter.

 

[jtb]

I don't really understand how you sell single payer to people with employer health insurance from a value perspective. People barely understand the hidden value of their employer plans as it is.

 

[kirblar]

I don't really understand how you sell single payer to people with employer health insurance from a value perspective. People barely understand the hidden value of their employer plans as it is.

It's why people freak the fuck out at Obamacare pricing, because it's not hiding the true cost from them!

 

[Plinko]

I don't really understand how you sell single payer to people with employer health insurance from a value perspective. People barely understand the hidden value of their employer plans as it is.

This has been my main complaint. It's near impossible. You have to mandate employers pass on their health care contributions to the employer, and is that even possible?

 

[Y2Kev]

It doesn't matter. Sell ideas. You are getting caught up in details.

 

[Plinko]

It doesn't matter. Sell ideas. You are getting caught up in details.

That's a great idea in a vacuum, but all it takes opponents to do is simply show how much the average worker will be taxed and it is dead on arrival.

 

[PBY]

I have this sneaking suspicion this is 2020's litmus test bill

fucking great then lets do this

 

[whyamihere]

It doesn't matter. Sell ideas. You are getting caught up in details.

this.

 

[Bonen no Max'd]

Plinko's not wrong, it is, in fact, the year 1992 and the path for Democratic victory lies through triangulation and co-opting Republican policies. I'm looking forward to Andrew Cuomo talking about the need for border security with rows of soon-to-be deported undocumented immigrants behind him and his plans for common sense education reform by privatizing public schools.

 

[Plinko]

Plinko's not wrong, it is, in fact, the year 1992 and the path for Democratic victory lies through triangulation and co-opting Republican policies. I'm looking forward to Andrew Cuomo talking about the need for border security with rows of soon-to-be deported undocumented immigrants behind him and his plans for common sense education reform by privatizing public schools.

Nice snark, but I'd actually agree with you all IF this had nothing to do with employee payroll.

Tax reform doesn't affect people until April, and even then it's mostly the rich who benefit and others generally aren't affected. Government spending stuff doesn't generally directly affect citizens noticeably.

This comes directly out of paychecks. It's a colossal difference. It's noticeable multiple times a month, and most likely the new insurance wouldn't be as good as what is currently offered.

Mandate companies have to pass this on, and it's an easy win. If not, it's a terribly short-sighted path for democrats to take.

I'm all for single-payer with this caveat. It's a path we need to take. Health care is a right, not a privilege and for-profit industries running it in our country is garbage. I still insist that steps need to be taken to limit the outrageous health care costs before any success will be had. There is zero reason procedures should cost so much here compared to every other country. Going single-payer should help in that area.

 

[ArkhamFantasy]

It doesn't matter. Sell ideas. You are getting caught up in details.

I like this.

 

[Y2Kev]

That's a great idea in a vacuum, but all it takes opponents to do is simply show how much the average worker will be taxed and it is dead on arrival.

Lie. Who cares. We'll tax the rich people.

edit: also it's BILL DE BLASIO'S FAULT

 

[Aaron Strife]

Sad thing is Obama believed he could be, it feels like.

Obama was about as close to a Bartlet-type president we could ever hope for. Pragmatic but firm, constantly professional and above it all.

Like whenever people ask for just one decent person in the White House, it can not be understated just how much Obama fit that bill. Nearly all of his shortcomings had more to do with the incrementalist nature of our government than any lack of desire to act (the only exception I might make is his drone policy).

 

[Box of Kittens]

If this is going to screw over the 2020 chances of anyone who doesn't sign on then I feel like there's an easy solution. You're thinking about running in 2020? Sign on!

 

[Fenderputty]

Plinko's not wrong

Probably should have just stopped there. The idea that we can run on generalities effectually while the republicans push the high tax narrative is pretty funny to me. American butts tighten up more than a gnats ass on a lemon wedge simply mentioning taxation. This is doubly for the middle class who feels the already have insurance.

 

[Suikoguy]

Probably should have just stopped there. The idea that we can run on generalities effectually while the republicans push the high tax narrative is pretty funny to me. American butts tighten up more than a gnats ass on a lemon wedge simply mentioning taxation. This is doubly for the middle class who feels the already have insurance.

It's why I continue to push the idea of Medicare being on each State's insurance marketplace.

It's going to be really fucking difficult to argue against such a plan in the public eye.

 

[VendettaRed07]

Donald Trump told people he'd get Mexico to pay for a 20 billion dollar wall designed to keep Mexicans out

Let's just say we'll get Germany and Japan to pay for healthcare with WWII reparations

 

[pigeon]

Donald Trump told people he'd get Mexico to pay for a 20 billion dollar wall designed to keep Mexicans out

Let's just say we'll get Germany and Japan to pay for healthcare with WWII reparations

This is actually a perfect summary of what I'm afraid of!

We should aim for a higher standard than Donald Trump!

 

[Barzul]

Why not let employers buy Medicare as an option along with existing plans? Or insurance backed plans could still exist with Medicare administered by the govt filling in the gaps? Even if this isn't immediately feasible, it's how I'd sell it and work out the details later.

 

[PBY]

Donald Trump told people he'd get Mexico to pay for a 20 billion dollar wall designed to keep Mexicans out

Let's just say we'll get Germany and Japan to pay for healthcare with WWII reparations

This is my thought on this

1- does the plan work, e.g., have our best policy minds reached some consensus about the efficacy of the program.
2- If it does, and you believe it does, then fucking sell it. show people why it will be good for them.
3. profit.

 

[Pixieking]

This is my thought on this

1- does the plan work, e.g., have our best policy minds reached some consensus about the efficacy of the program.
2- If it does, and you believe it does, then fucking sell it. show people why it will be good for them.
3. profit.

People are very protective of what they have now. Even in a scenario where people will have a lot more, and lose only very little (better healthcare, but pay a little more in taxes), it's difficult to convince people of an argument. They feel that they may not get full value from the ethereal "thing" your're trying to sell them, and they know they're going to lose something, so they recoil.

It takes a lot to convince these people, because the opposing argument is keeping the status quo, and that's comforting to the part that fears for the future.

 

[Diablos]

We are building GAF Gold and IGN is paying for it

 

[shinra-bansho]

Probably should have just stopped there. The idea that we can run on generalities effectually while the republicans push the high tax narrative is pretty funny to me. American butts tighten up more than a gnats ass on a lemon wedge simply mentioning taxation. This is doubly for the middle class who feels the already have insurance.

Well when you're young enough to have never paid tax it's hard to comprehend.

But then kev pays more tax than the rest of poligaf combined. So you just need to clone kev. More.

 

[Aaron Strife]

We are building GAF Gold and IGN is paying for it

Can't spell Shandygaff without GAF.

 

[Fenderputty]

So you just need to clone kev. More.

This seems like a more plausible scenario than currently trying to pass single payer as is.

 

[AntraxSuicide]

This is my thought on this

1- does the plan work, e.g., have our best policy minds reached some consensus about the efficacy of the program.
2- If it does, and you believe it does, then fucking sell it. show people why it will be good for them.
3. profit.

I mean, yes, obviously. I think the discussion is about whether you need the specific bill to satisfy the first point. Some people say yes, some say no.

And y'all talking about The West Wing when we're all mostly millennials. That show is up there with NCIS with its main demographic. Get hip!

 

[Maridia]

That's a great idea in a vacuum, but all it takes opponents to do is simply show how much the average worker will be taxed and it is dead on arrival.

Hopefully you're already talking about how much their ideas will cost (more than yours), thereby inoculating yourself from that line of criticism.