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[Deleted member 231381]

I'll say that, for me personally, I don't think I've ever used "loss of white collar jobs" as a reason not to proceed with healthcare reform other than as an acknowledgement of a source of potential blowback. I can't speak for others

No, that's true, I apologize, that was just AntraxSuicide, Fenderputty, Kid Kamikaze10, and balladofwindfishes in the ivory tower.

EDIT: Nice try with the rural white bit, Antrax, but as I pointed out, manual labourers are significantly more likely to be minorities and people working in healthcare insurance are significantly more likely to be white. You're on the wrong side of things here!

 

[balladofwindfishes]

FYI Crab, in my city, the blue collar manufacturing jobs were replaced with the healthcare industry

Just, you know, gonna toss that little fact out there.

 

[Fenderputty]

i want whatever the fuck you're smoking

the healthcare industry employs about 2.5 million people

american manufacturing employs 12.5 million people

yet this thread is perfectly fine to say 'fuck american small towns, leave them for dead', but the moment we start talking about liberal urban insurers, oh, the concern, the concern!

Now please explain how breaking down 2.5 million jobs and the infrastructure surrounding it, then rebuilding that back all over 4 years is in anyway the same as what's a happened to the erosion of the manufacturing industry over the last 50 years

 

[i_am_ben]

Why are we all suddenly more concerned with the profits of the health insurance industry than the healthcare of American citizens?

Corporations are people too, Crab.

 

[eBay Huckster]

FYI Crab, in my city, the blue collar manufacturing jobs were replaced with the healthcare industry

Just, you know, gonna toss that little fact out there.

Also, my city (Cleveland) is being revitalized pretty much entirely on the back of expansion of its healthcare industry, but sure let's just introduce some Uncertainty there

 

[Armaros]

So where do you think the votes will be coming from? Surely you write off CT with Crabs rhetoric about not caring about what happens to existing industry?

So that's two Senate votes and whatever House votes missing from the start.

 

[VendettaRed07]

Edit: misread

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Now please explain how breaking down 2.5 million jobs and the infrastructure surrounding it, then rebuilding that back is in anyway the same as what's a happened to the erosion of the manufacturing industry over the last 50 years

The American manufacturing industry has had the potential to become increasingly more labour efficient over the past 50 years. The American healthcare industry has had the potential to become increasingly more labour efficient over the past 50 years. Desiring a more efficient manufacturing sector, political parties, both Republican and Democrat, made the political choice not to protect the manufacturing sector, reasoning that even if it sucked for those bluecollar workers, it helped the average consumer. This is rank hypocrisy when, with the prospect of a more efficient healthcare system is on the horizon, Republicans and Democrats are doubling down on protecting whitecollar workers to the loss of the average consumer. The only difference is one concerns blue-collar workers and the other white-collar.

Both of these industries and what has happened to them are the result of political and economic pressures. The economic pressure in both cases is towards labour efficiency. The political pressure in manufacturing was to allow this, the political pressure in healthcare was to block this and protect hugely inefficient labour practices. You are busy here defending this, despite the fact the losers have overwhelmingly been poor and minorities, and the winners have overwhelmingly been rich and white.

Pretty disgusting, in my honest opinion.

 

[Blader]

Pretty much. Not to mention many of the jobs lost in the healthcare industry if they do happen when more healthcare reform is passed will probably come from the top earners and CEOs of these companies cutting the fat where ever possible in order to subsidize their massive Christmas bonuses

I'm a little mixed up by the wording here. Are you saying that jobs lost in the healthcare industry would be the top earners and CEOs? Or, literally everybody else?

 

[VendettaRed07]

Are you saying that jobs lost in the healthcare industry would be the top earners and CEOs? Or, literally everybody else?

Misread what crab was arguing for. Total single payer that does eliminate private insurance altogether would be bad for the economy, unless it did look like Sanders initial plan that paid for everything in its current state just with government dollars. But it would be way too expensive to do it that way.

Private health insurance companies can easily coexist with more government options, but not in their current form with some of these exorbitant salaries some of the people in the industry make

 

[Deleted member 231381]

No country has 'total singlepayer'. I live in the United Kingdom, 14% of our healthcare is still provided privately, and not only are we single-payer, we're also single-provider (at least at hospital level). Private insurance companies would continue to exist at diminished scale.

 

[Armaros]

No country has 'total singlepayer'. I live in the United Kingdom, 14% of our healthcare is still provided privately, and not only are we single-payer, we're also single-provider (at least at hospital level). Private insurance companies would continue to exist at diminished scale.

Then provide answers to what happens instead your whataboutism arguments that pretend they won't be a real roadblock to getting it implemented.

 

[AntraxSuicide]

Why should people vote for a bill without those job protections?

 

[benicillin]

So where do you think the votes will be coming from? Surely you write off CT with Crabs rhetoric about not caring about what happens to existing industry?

So that's two Senate votes and whatever House votes missing from the start.

Strange if it would destroy CT that Blumenthal would cosponsor Bernie's bill. It's almost like it's symbolic or something.

 

[Hubbl3]

FYI Crab, in my city, the blue collar manufacturing jobs were replaced with the healthcare industry

Just, you know, gonna toss that little fact out there.

Yeah, same in my area. All facets of healthcare, manufacturing technology (ie. programming robots, installing robots, maintenance of machines and robots, etc.) and education surrounding mainly those 2 areas came in and supplied a ton of jobs and career paths for people when old school blue-collar jobs dried up.

 

[Armaros]

Strange if it would destroy CT that Blumenthal would cosponsor Bernie's bill. It's almost like it's symbolic or something.

That's not how the people in support of the bill here are arguing.

 

[Box of Kittens]

Nothing is working!

Except every indication is that Trumps approval rating has been in steady decline and his support in every state has softened. And he barely won last time against the other most unpopular candidate in history.

So really, everything seems to be working.

This is one of those cases where the article just doesn't match the headline, although they really try and slant it in that direction.

 

[VendettaRed07]

Strange if it would destroy CT that Blumenthal would cosponsor Bernie's bill. It's almost like it's symbolic or something.

Murphy was also one of the first to suggest hitting "Republican liars with Medicare for all" when the GOP looked like they were going to destroy the healthcare industry themselves

Really I don't think anything we'd try to pass will end up gutting the healthcare industry to the point we see layoffs in mass or a recession in the economy.

We are going to be insuring millions of more people and creating more customers and government jobs as well. Some of these private insurance companies will have their profits go down but that's kind of the point. They make way too much money and their large salaries are given to them by their shitty expensive service. Their service will need to become better and cheaper. There'll be a market and plenty of willing customers if they don't suck

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Then provide answers to what happens instead your whataboutism arguments that pretend they won't be a real roadblock to getting it implemented.

I'm pointing out that you are being wildly hypocritical. The policy of 'leaving manual American labourers to rot' is an even bigger block to political office than the policy of 'leaving insurance employees to rot', yet never do I see many of the posters in this thread have any serious concern about the former, yet sound off about the latter at the first opportunity. Indeed, kirblar regularly says 'leave them to die', and I'm pretty sure that's an exact quote. Can't think of a much bigger roadblock to office than that one!

There are two consistent positions: we adopt protectionism for the free market and we leave the healthcare market as is, since these are the two options most clearly politically feasible OR we gain from the benefits of globalization and we reform the healthcare market, since these are the two options that are better for America. But half of this thread is willing to pick-and-mix, and I'm highlighting this because you don't even realize what you're doing and how privileged your perspective is.

 

[Box of Kittens]

Lol @ statistically tied

Very annoying for sure, but this is an issue that even a lot of well-regarded statistics texts get sloppy about.

 

[eBay Huckster]

I'm okay with the bill itself provided that it's as VendettaRed and Crab say it is

I'm not okay with people demonizing Pelosi for not signing on, because even Bernie knows it's just symbolic at this point

 

[Armaros]

I'm pointing out that you are being wildly hypocritical. The policy of 'leaving manual American labourers to rot' is an even bigger block to political office than the policy of 'leaving insurance employees to rot', yet never do I see many of the posters in this thread have any serious concern about the former, yet sound off about the latter at the first opportunity. Indeed, kirblar regularly says 'leave them to die', and I'm pretty sure that's an exact quote. Can't think of a much bigger roadblock to office than that one!

There are two consistent positions: we adopt protectionism for the free market and we leave the healthcare market as is, since these are the two options most clearly politically feasible OR we gain from the benefits of globalization and we reform the healthcare market, since these are the two options that are better for America. But half of this thread is willing to pick-and-mix, and I'm highlighting this because you don't even realize what you're doing and how privileged your perspective is.

People have already answered your argument and you have refused to give a real response to it and only want to repeat yourself.

So we are at an empass what no one is actually trying to get things done and are just doing things to make grandiose statements.

Also blue color jobs and industry were not killed by a single bill.

Bernies bill WOULD kill an entire industry if Implemented as is. If you don't have answer to it, you don't really think you have a real piece of legislation. And everyone knows it

 

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Ok I'm willing to cop to it. I have family and friends who work in the industry on the tech side and live in a state that relies on it. You are right Crab, manual laborers are more important. I can own up to my bullshit.

But that is not an excuse for not getting these important details hashed out. That is how you get trust into a bill.

If this is still pretty much Conyers bill, it needs ironing out.

 

[kirblar]

Automation has not made health care more efficient at point of service. It is stil hugely labor dependent and trying to act as though the productivity benefits due to technology and automation are equivalent between the two sectors is completely disingenuous.

As is throwing out the "minorities are more likely to be blue collar workers when"

a) manufacturing is a subset of blue collar workers
b) minorities are far more likely to be living on the coasts or in the south, not in the rust belt or rural areas affected most by lack of manufacturing, which is one of the whitest parts of the country

 

[wutwutwut]

A public option would sidestep all these discussions...

I thought that Bernie had shifted away from single payer and towards a public option anyway? "Medicare for All" is curiously ambiguous.

 

[Box of Kittens]

My position would pretty much be that free trade agreements are a net positive, but past agreements have generally lacked sufficiently strong support for displaced workers. Likewise, I am strongly in favor of universal healthcare and if we decide as a society that single-payer is the way to do so, any bill that creates a single-payer system needs to provide support for the workers who will be displaced.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

There are no blue collar workers in the healthcare industry?

 

[Aaron Strife]

The problem with the Alabama poll is the high number of undecideds. If it was like, 51-47 or something, I'd be much more excited.

Alabama went 61-38 in 2012, 62-34 in 2016. Odds are that 40% Jones is scraping is about the best he could hope for. Those sour grapes holding back Moore and Strange's numbers won't last forever.

But maybe I'm wrong! In any case I think the DSCC and other national party branches/members should get involved here, while hopefully being more discrete about it than with GA-6 which ended up being dominated by national issues.

 

[kirblar]

My position would pretty much be that free trade agreements are a net positive, but past agreements have generally lacked sufficiently strong support for displaced workers. Likewise, I am strongly in favor of universal healthcare and if we decide as a society that single-payer is the way to do so, any bill that creates a single-payer system needs to provide support for the workers who will be displaced.

Less people living in rural areas? A good thing for society.

The problem is a lack of support for people caught in the transition. (which is the same issue we have with trying to nationalize health care over 4 years- a public option is a much better way to try and attempt such a thing (should insurers start pulling out of exchanges) over a much longer time horizon.

 

[Blader]

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/09/13/teflon-trump-democrats-messaging-242607

Democrats have attacked the president every which way, but polling and focus groups show none of it's working.



Voters are right here. Promising free college tuition will only win you voters who already vote for you. And then they will also realize it's not really free.





That is true considering even Sanders has not specified how he will pay for his Medicare-for-all plan.



15$ platform could end up being the biggest reason Dems lose to Trump in 2020.

I am having such a hard time getting through this article because I am internally screaming after every paragraph.

The stupidity of these people is fucking exhausting.

 

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Gonna own up to another thing.

The affordability concerns rarely work when talking about military, but not healthcare. So hey, if the idealistic route works, whatever. As long as people get the help they need.

 

[Frank the Great]

Placing a public option on the ACA exchanges would be incredibly feasible and would fix the only major problem with the ACA (lack of coverage/affordability in certain markets).

I don't understand why no one is proposing this.

 

[Box of Kittens]

The problem with the Alabama poll is the high number of undecideds. If it was like, 51-47 or something, I'd be much more excited.

Alabama went 61-38 in 2012, 62-34 in 2016. Odds are that 40% Jones is scraping is about the best he could hope for. Those sour grapes holding back Moore and Strange's numbers won't last forever.

But maybe I'm wrong! In any case I think the DSCC and other national party branches/members should get involved here, while hopefully being more discrete about it than with GA-6 which ended up being dominated by national issues.

IMO, the DSCC should make at least a small investment in every Senate race unless the Dem nominee is so toxic the party can't support them (a la Republicans and David Duke in the 1991 LA-Gov race).

 

[balladofwindfishes]

Placing a public option on the ACA exchanges would be incredibly feasible and would fix the only major problem with the ACA (lack of coverage/affordability in certain markets).

I don't understand why no one is proposing this.

It's either "Single Payer" or nothing at all for some people. The actual act of covering more people doesn't really matter.

 

[kirblar]

Placing a public option on the ACA exchanges would be incredibly feasible and would fix the only major problem with the ACA (lack of coverage/affordability in certain markets).

I don't understand why no one is proposing this.

Not sure if trolling.

If not trolling, it was part of the goddamn platform last year and has had near-unanimous party support since at least 2009!

 

[Aaron Strife]

Placing a public option on the ACA exchanges would be incredibly feasible and would fix the only major problem with the ACA (lack of coverage/affordability in certain markets).

I don't understand why no one is proposing this.

Plenty of people are proposing this. Franken introduced a bill earlier this year.

https://www.franken.senate.gov/?p=press_release&id=3606

I think it's well-accepted that the next expansion of healthcare will be a public option and Medicare expansion. The nice thing about "Medicare for All" is that it's vague enough that it can apply to just about any proposal.

IMO, the DSCC should make at least a small investment in every Senate race unless the Dem nominee is so toxic the party can't support them (a la Republicans and David Duke in the 1991 LA-Gov race).

Definitely, but AL-Sen for right now just because they have literally no other Senate elections going on this year.

 

[wutwutwut]

Placing a public option on the ACA exchanges would be incredibly feasible and would fix the only major problem with the ACA (lack of coverage/affordability in certain markets).

I don't understand why no one is proposing this.

There's a valid argument that single-payer is a better place to start negotiating from. But I sure hope a public option isn't taken as defeat among the DSA types.

 

[Box of Kittens]

I am having such a hard time getting through this article because I am internally screaming after every paragraph.

The stupidity of these people is fucking exhausting.

More than anything I hate the "Teflon Don" (Teflon Trump, whatever) headlines for an article that basically says that focus groups have found that some attacks (not all like the headline tries to imply) on Trump aren't working with a specific subset of voters and they aren't fans of every policy proposal from the left.

 

[Teggy]

Alice Ollstein
Alice Ollstein @AliceOllstein
·
1m
"This is not a partisan bill," insists @BillCassidy about his Obamacare repeal bill that not a single Democrat supports.

.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Automation has not made health care more efficient at point of service. It is stil hugely labor dependent and trying to act as though the productivity benefits due to technology and automation are equivalent between the two sectors is completely disingenuous.

I'm not even talking about automation when talking about healthcare. I'm pointing out that as an industry model, single-payer is far more effective than what America currently has. You're talking approximately 45% more labour efficient, using Canada, the United Kingdom, and Sweden as approximate comparisons. What the exact source of the labour efficiency is - automation, structural changes - doesn't matter. The key point - that you're willing to defend healthcare inefficiencies because of white-collar jobs but you're not willing to defend manufacturing inefficiencies because of blue-collar jobs - stands.

As is throwing out the "minorities are more likely to be blue collar workers when"

a) manufacturing is a subset of blue collar workers
b) minorities are far more likely to be living on the coasts or in the south, not in the rust belt or rural areas affected most by lack of manufacturing, which is one of the whitest parts of the country

Out of private employees, manufacturing employees are disproportionately likely to be black. Even more significantly, public employees are almost twice as likely to be black as private employees - so a publicly run singlepayer system sounds like an incredible opportunity for minority employment to me!

 

[Box of Kittens]

Definitely, but AL-Sen for right now just because they have literally no other Senate elections going on this year.

For sure, there's no "more important race" to focus on right now.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

My position would pretty much be that free trade agreements are a net positive, but past agreements have generally lacked sufficiently strong support for displaced workers. Likewise, I am strongly in favor of universal healthcare and if we decide as a society that single-payer is the way to do so, any bill that creates a single-payer system needs to provide support for the workers who will be displaced.

I agree. This is also my position.

 

[wutwutwut]

I'm not even talking about automation when talking about healthcare. I'm pointing out that as an industry model, single-payer is far more effective than what America currently has. You're talking approximately 45% more labour efficient, using Canada, the United Kingdom, and Sweden as approximate comparisons. What the exact source of the labour efficiency is - automation, structural changes - doesn't matter. The key point - that you're willing to defend healthcare inefficiencies because of white-collar jobs but you're not willing to defend manufacturing inefficiencies because of blue-collar jobs - stands.

We're talking about doctors and nurses here right? Due to protectionism they're paid much more than in other countries at the moment.

Out of private employees, manufacturing employees are disproportionately likely to be black. Even more significantly, public employees are almost twice as likely to be black as private employees - so a publicly run singlepayer system sounds like an incredible opportunity for minority employment to me!

This I think is a bit of a stretch — correlation doesn't imply causation.

 

[Aaron Strife]

Dem internal poll of AZ Senate

https://www.dropbox.com/s/s74bn6kp9mg5bwi/AZ Poll Memo 091217.pdf?dl=0

Flake losing the primary 31-58 to Kelli Ward. Flake also loses a general election matchup against Kyrsten Sinema 40-47.

They don't poll Sinema vs. Ward, or didn't release the numbers, suggesting they'd rather Flake make it out of the primary? Or perhaps Ward (being less-known) polls better on paper for right now.

 

[kirblar]

I'm not even talking about automation when talking about healthcare. I'm pointing out that as an industry model, single-payer is far more effective than what America currently has. You're talking approximately 45% more labour efficient, using Canada, the United Kingdom, and Sweden as approximate comparisons. What the exact source of the labour efficiency is - automation, structural changes - doesn't matter. The key point - that you're willing to defend healthcare inefficiencies because of white-collar jobs but you're not willing to defend manufacturing inefficiencies because of blue-collar jobs - stands.



Out of private employees, manufacturing employees are disproportionately likely to be black. Even more significantly, public employees are almost twice as likely to be black as private employees - so a publicly run singlepayer system sounds like an incredible opportunity for minority employment to me!

Wut. They are less likely to be in the sector if they're black.

11.9% black overall respondants
10% black in manufacturing

Are you just reading this chart completely wrong? Black people are overrepresented in Public Administration, transportation/utilities, and Education (because of discrimination in the private sector.)

 

[whyamihere]

Dem Poll for AZ SEN:

GOP Primary

Ward: 58
Flake: 31

GE

Sinema: 47
Flake: 40

https://www.dropbox.com/s/s74bn6kp9mg5bwi/AZ Poll Memo 091217.pdf?dl=0

 

[Frank the Great]

Not sure if trolling.

If not trolling, it was part of the goddamn platform last year and has had near-unanimous party support since at least 2009!

Plenty of people are proposing this. Franken introduced a bill earlier this year.

https://www.franken.senate.gov/?p=press_release&id=3606

I think it's well-accepted that the next expansion of healthcare will be a public option and Medicare expansion. The nice thing about "Medicare for All" is that it's vague enough that it can apply to just about any proposal.

Not trolling. I should have been more specific. I meant, I don't understand why any of the folks interested in a 2020 run aren't getting out there with this. It seems like everyone is jumping on Bernie's single payer train to nowhere.

Surely there's still a place in the party for more sensible voices.

 

[whyamihere]

Heitkamp officially running for reelection.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Wut. They are less likely to be in the sector if they're black.

Are you just reading this chart completely wrong? Black people are overrepresented in Public Administration, transportation/utilities, and Education (because of discrimination in the private sector.)

You didn't read my post. I said of private employees. Nearly 20% of black Americans work in the public sector, almost twice their share of the general population, so they are otherwise underrepresented in every private industry. When you consider solely those employed privately, they are disproportionately represented in manufacturing. Hence, this actually improves things at both ends.

 

[kirblar]

Not trolling. I should have been more specific. I meant, I don't understand why any of the folks interested in a 2020 run aren't getting out there with this. It seems like everyone is jumping on Bernie's single payer train to nowhere.

Surely there's still a place in the party for more sensible voices.

Gilibrand was actively conflating a public option and Medicare for All in '09 (as were others.) This is primary positioning.