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PoliGAF 2nd Pres. Debate 2008 Thread (DOW dropping, Biden is off to Home Depot)

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S

Seth C

Member
Qwerty710710 said:
Looking at some numbers in 2004 122,293,548 people voted. So the Obama campaign is expecting only <8 million more people will vote? Sounds too low to me I was reading that Ohio there expecting 800,000 more people to vote than in 04.
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Ohio has the 7th highest population of any state in the Union. Mind you, if each states saw the same percentage increase in voter turnout we would see an additional 20 million (or so) votes over 2004, but Ohio is a battleground state and as such voter turnout there will be much higher than say, Kentucky. Give that I'd say a 10 million increase over 2004 seems reasonable.
 
T

thefro

Member
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081013/ap_on_el_pr/obama

Summary of new stuff in expanded plan:

- 90 day foreclosure moratorium for banks who take part in the Federal Bailout
- $3000 tax break for each new job a company creates through 2010
- Can withdraw 15% ($10,000) of retirement/IRA's without penalty through 2009
- Federal loans for state/local governments who need them to make payroll
 
F

Flo_Evans

Member
Found this sort of interesting

Our analysis reveals that the national rate of disenfranchisement, and particularly that of black men, remains at substantial levels. Not surprisingly, states that disenfranchise felons for life have far greater numbers of disenfranchised adults than other states. Our findings include:


· A total of 3.9 million adults, or 2.0 percent of the eligible voting population, is currently or permanently disenfranchised as a result of a felony conviction.

· Six states—Alabama, Florida, Mississippi, New Mexico, Virginia, and Wyoming—exclude from the vote more than 4 percent of their adult population, or more than one in twenty-five.

· Florida and Texas each disenfranchise more than 600,000 people.

· Alabama, California and Virginia each disenfranchise close to a quarter of a million persons.

Table 3 provides a breakdown of the number of persons disenfranchised for felony convictions who are in prison, on probation or parole or have completed serving their sentences. It reveals that:

· Nearly three-quarters (73 percent) of the disenfranchised are not in prison, but are on probation, or parole or have completed their sentences.

· 1.4 million of the disenfranchised are ex-offenders.

· Five states—Alabama, Florida, Mississippi, Texas, and Virginia—each disenfranchise more than 125,000 ex-felons. One-third of all disenfranchised ex-felons (436,900) are in Florida.

· One million people of the disenfranchised were only sentenced to probation and not to prison. Texas disenfranchises nearly a quarter of a million people (234,200) on probation.
Click to expand...

http://www.hrw.org/reports98/vote/index.html#TopOfPage

Pretty fucked up that your right to vote in national elections is determined by the state.
 
S

StoOgE

First tragedy, then farce.
Stumpokapow said:
It's also called RCP randomly including and excluding polls with no rhyme or reason.
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Oh, RCP isnt doing anything Randomly they cherry pick good polls for McCain and exclude good polls for Obama. There is a reason everyone has dropped them from the news networks and started using pollster.com (who just uses all the polls)
 
S

StoOgE

First tragedy, then farce.
thefro said:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081013/ap_on_el_pr/obama

Summary of new stuff in expanded plan:

- 90 day foreclosure moratorium for banks who take part in the Federal Bailout
- $3000 tax break for each new job a company creates through 2010
- Can withdraw 15% ($10,000) of retirement/IRA's without penalty through 2009
- Federal loans for state/local governments who need them to make payroll
Click to expand...

Is the 15% provision require some qualifying action? Like 59.5, buying a new home, hardship, school, etc? Or is it just blanket 15%.
 
S

Saint Gregory

Member
thefro said:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081013/ap_on_el_pr/obama

Summary of new stuff in expanded plan:

- 90 day foreclosure moratorium for banks who take part in the Federal Bailout
- $3000 tax break for each new job a company creates through 2010
- Can withdraw 15% ($10,000) of retirement/IRA's without penalty through 2009
- Federal loans for state/local governments who need them to make payroll
Click to expand...

Wow, there's some really good stuff there.
 
G

GhaleonEB

Member
thefro said:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081013/ap_on_el_pr/obama

Summary of new stuff in expanded plan:

- 90 day foreclosure moratorium for banks who take part in the Federal Bailout
- $3000 tax break for each new job a company creates through 2010
- Can withdraw 15% ($10,000) of retirement/IRA's without penalty through 2009
- Federal loans for state/local governments who need them to make payroll
Click to expand...
fap

McCain talks about fighting, Obama talks about fixing problems.

And that was one hell of a strong finish for Obama.
 
T

thefro

Member
StoOgE said:
Is the 15% provision require some qualifying action? Like 59.5, buying a new home, hardship, school, etc? Or is it just blanket 15%.
Click to expand...

Blanket 15% up to $10,000

Obama also is proposing letting people withdraw up to 15 percent of their retirement funds, to a maximum of $10,000, without any penalty this year and next. They would still have to pay normal taxes on the money. He said letting people dip into their IRAs and 401(k)s would help them get through tough times when money is tight.
Click to expand...
 
C

CharlieDigital

Banned
McCain kind of blew it by not coming out with his economic ideas today.

If anything he comes out with now even vaguely resembles what Obama proposed, then he'll be called on it and it'll come up in the debate that Obama did it first.
 
M

mrmyth

Member
Need to find some weights for my shoes to keep me grounded.

This election is like watching Dream Team I walk over the rest of the world.
 
S

StoOgE

First tragedy, then farce.
mrmyth said:
Need to find some weights for my shoes to keep me grounded.

This election is like watching Dream Team I walk over the rest of the world.
Click to expand...

More like the redeam team after Gore + Kerry AMIRITE?
 
C

CharlieDigital

Banned
StoOgE said:
I have no problem disenfranchising ex-felons. I think once you prove that you are no longer a member of society in good standing you should forfeit your right to vote. You broke the social contract, you pay the price.
Click to expand...

What about false convictions? Convictions for non-violent crimes (i.e. marijuana?)?

I think it's a bit extreme. The whole idea is that they're ex-felons and that they've reformed; otherwise, why set them free?
 
Cauliflower of Love

Cauliflower of Love

Banned
StoOgE said:
I have no problem disenfranchising ex-felons. I think once you prove that you are no longer a member of society in good standing you should forfeit your right to vote. You broke the social contract, you pay the price.
Click to expand...

It's the legal way to kill democratic votes.
 
B

BenjaminBirdie

Banned
Eee Hee Hee

Nagourney’s (from NYT) Reasons Why It May Not Be Over

1. Not everyone who has recently registered as a Democrat may vote on Election Day.
2. The Democrats’ improved voter turnout effort may still not work as effectively as the Republicans’ effort.
3. The race may swing back to McCain under the “pendulum theory.”
4. A national security event in the closing days could “shuffle the deck of cards.”
5. Race.
6. The Ayers attack could end up sticking.
Click to expand...
 
G

GhaleonEB

Member
StoOgE said:
I have no problem disenfranchising ex-felons. I think once you prove that you are no longer a member of society in good standing you should forfeit your right to vote. You broke the social contract, you pay the price.
Click to expand...
Once they have paid their debt to society, they should be allowed back into society. Including their right to vote. Felons in prison, I'm fine preventing from voting.

Ex-felons, not so much. They paid their dues.
 
C

CharlieDigital

Banned
Cloudy said:
The tax break for job creation is a really good idea
Click to expand...

I need to see more details before I jump aboard...I can see all sorts of ways that this could be abused by unscrupulous companies not to mention that it could cause a sort of "job bubble" when the tax breaks are rescinded.

Need more details on how he'll prevent employer fraud and how to prevent it from being abused.
 
S

StoOgE

First tragedy, then farce.
CharlieDigital said:
What about false convictions? Convictions for non-violent crimes (i.e. marijuana?)?

I think it's a bit extreme. The whole idea is that they're ex-felons and that they've reformed; otherwise, why set them free?
Click to expand...

I agree that false convictions are a problem, but they are a problem in general with the legal system. Our legal system needs to be corrected in general.

And yeah, I think felons should lose the right to vote. We are talking serious crimes when they approach that level... and I dont look at it like punishment, I think we have a right to keep destructive members of society from having a say in our elections process. These are people that have been bad-actors in our society. Once you prove that you are willing to harm the society you live in you shouldnt have a say in its day to day operations.
 
S

so_awes

Banned
so is "i have a plan" McCain's new "my friends"?? :lol :lol

does he have these "plans" on his website?


*edit* :lol :lol they booed when McCain mentioned Obama, and some of them screamed out something...
 
S

StoOgE

First tragedy, then farce.
CharlieDigital said:
I need to see more details before I jump aboard...I can see all sorts of ways that this could be abused by unscrupulous companies not to mention that it could cause a sort of "job bubble" when the tax breaks are rescinded.

Need more details on how he'll prevent employer fraud and how to prevent it from being abused.
Click to expand...

At 3000 dollars all it really does is offset the payroll taxes for the first year for the jobs. Its not enough for companies to create jobs just for the tax cut, but it removes a hurdle to them creating the jobs. I think it is a smart move that could lead to jobs being created quicker than they otherwise might be.
 
V

VictimOfGrief

Banned
Comedy gold....
He also called for a $3,000 tax credit for each additional full-time job a business creates. That means a business that adds five jobs would get a $15,000 break. That would end after 2010 and would cost $40 billion, the campaign estimates.
Click to expand...
Link : http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081013/ap_on_el_pr/obama

In other news....

US_National_Debt_crop.jpg

Link:http://gizmodo.com/5062531/national-debt-clock-to-get-most-depressing-upgrade-ever
 
B

BobTheFork

Member
BenjaminBirdie said:
Eee Hee Hee
Click to expand...
WTF is this?
"4. A national security event in the closing days could “shuffle the deck of cards.”"
Ok that's very true, but I really don't like the way its worded.

edit: ^^^^ :p drop in a fucking bucket now. New jobs need to be created.
 
G

GhaleonEB

Member
StoOgE said:
I agree that false convictions are a problem, but they are a problem in general with the legal system. Our legal system needs to be corrected in general.

And yeah, I think felons should lose the right to vote. We are talking serious crimes when they approach that level... and I dont look at it like punishment, I think we have a right to keep destructive members of society from having a say in our elections process. These are people that have been bad-actors in our society. Once you prove that you are willing to harm the society you live in you shouldnt have a say in its day to day operations.
Click to expand...
So why ever set them free? What other rights should be restricted from them? Voting rights is kind of arbitrary.
Hootie said:
....does either candidate really expect to lower taxes for ANYBODY? How the hell is that even possible right now?
Click to expand...
By offsetting the tax cuts with cuts in other spending, closing corporate tax loopholes, ending the war in Iraq and raising taxes on the wealthy, for starters.
 
C

CharlieDigital

Banned
StoOgE said:
At 3000 dollars all it really does is offset the payroll taxes for the first year for the jobs. Its not enough for companies to create jobs just for the tax cut, but it removes a hurdle to them creating the jobs. I think it is a smart move that could lead to jobs being created quicker than they otherwise might be.
Click to expand...

Well, that's one part of the possible problems. What about fraud? For example, a sole proprietor decides to put his teenage kids on his payroll to get a $6000 tax break?
 
T

Tim-E

Member
syllogism said:
So are you saying tax breaks are bad
Click to expand...

They say that Obama wants to tax businesses and use it as a talking point, then they laugh at him when he proposes to give them tax breaks. :lol
 
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