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[Byakuya769]

Of course, Obama's campaign staff is paid equitably regardless of gender.

How lame. It's as if you've decided to become a better spoken 140.15...

 

[Gaborn]

How lame. It's as if you've decided to become a better spoken 140.15...

I provided a link, if you disagree with the link as Cloudy did (by citing a commenter :lol :lol ) you're free to do so, with facts please.

 

[Tamanon]

Yeah, that's a National Review article. Their method of determining pay average has nothing to do with equal pay. They're not counting positiion, pay grade, or longevity. :lol

 

[Cheebs]

I wouldnt expect SNL to go overly hard on McCain tonight just so you know. Lorne Michaels the shows creator and exec. producer has donated the max amount possible to the McCain campaign. Nothing to Obama.

 

[AniHawk]

Yeah, that's a National Review article. Their method of determining pay average has nothing to do with equal pay. They're not counting positiion, pay grade, or longevity. :lol

BUT THE AVERAGE SAYS

 

[Gaborn]

Yeah, that's a National Review article. Their method of determining pay average has nothing to do with equal pay. They're not counting positiion, pay grade, or longevity. :lol

Actually they did mention that Obama has fewer top female aides then McCain does.

 

[laserbeam]

I wouldnt expect SNL to go overly hard on McCain tonight just so you know. Lorne Michaels the shows creator and exec. producer has donated the max amount possible to the McCain campaign. Nothing to Obama.

I agree with you. Lorne said yesterday SNL's job is not to be political its to have fun so anything with Palin and McCain will be haha funny stuff and nothing politically slamming

 

[Mandark]

I provided a link, if you disagree with the link as Cloudy did (by citing a commenter :lol :lol ) you're free to do so, with facts please.

According to this watch list you're not allowed to ridicule people for being detached from the facts. I'm going to need to see your permit.

 

[Trakdown]

BTW, McCain/Palin will do joint town halls. Still hiding behind the skirt for McCain and the training wheels for Palin.:lol

I'll be watching to see if Palin's mouth moves when McCain drinks water.

 

[Tamanon]

Actually they did mention that Obama has fewer top female aides then McCain does.

Right....and that has what to do with my point?

 

[Byakuya769]

I provided a link, if you disagree with the link as Cloudy did (by citing a commenter :lol :lol ) you're free to do so, with facts please.

exactly provide a link, possibly without even reading it. Fail to discuss the link, but make some "oh obama better watch out" like comment. Classic 140.15. Do you know the relative positions of each and every staffer? Do you know how the pay is determined? All answers questions lead to a fairly certain - NO.

Sad thing is you know it. I'm not sure I can say the same thing for 140... hope you're not becoming something worse.

 

[polyh3dron]

I agree with you. Lorne said yesterday SNL's job is not to be political its to have fun so anything with Palin and McCain will be haha funny stuff and nothing politically slamming

bu bu bu but what happened to "would you like a pillow" and "my supporters are racist"?

 

[Cloudy]

I provided a link, if you disagree with the link as Cloudy did (by citing a commenter :lol :lol ) you're free to do so, with facts please.

But the comment actually makes sense. Or do you think Senators come up with arbitrary salaries. I'm sure they have guidelines like ANY OTHER JOB. Especially when the salaries are PUBLIC FUKKIN RECORD :lol

If you can find a man and woman with the same experience/tenure, doing the same job making different amounts, then it's a story. It's unbelievable what people will grasp at to smear Obama when McCain is the one who actually VOTES AGAINST equal-pay legislation...

 

[Particle Physicist]

Actually they did mention that Obama has fewer top female aides then McCain does.

so? what exactly does that imply? should he hire women just because they are women?

 

[tyguy20204]

Of course, Obama's campaign staff is paid equitably regardless of gender.

Did you read the article? Obama has more men on his staff than women. McCain has more women on his staff then men.

Thus, Obama has more high-paid positions for men.
Thus, McCain has more high-paid positions for women.

If you want, I guess, you could make the argument that Obama is sexist towards women.
If you want, I guess, you could make the argument that McCain is sexist towards men.

My bet? Each candidate picked the most qualified individual (because, logically, that gives them the best chance to win the presidency) and this is simply how it played out.

It's such a small sample size that there's NO meaningful analysis that can be made.

Oh, and besides, even if we are to assume that we CAN take something meaningful from this information, Obama's $.83 still meets the guidelines he's set forth.

So next time read the stuff you're linking to, thanks.

 

[numble]

Of course, Obama's campaign staff is paid equitably regardless of gender.

The obvious wrong item: This article is about his US Senate staff, while you are talking about his campaign staff. This is like when you called Sarah Palin's former campaign manager her former opponent.

 

[crisdecuba]

Actually they did mention that Obama has fewer top female aides then McCain does.

Yeah, they cite that as one of the factors for the discrepancy - shouldn't it be "equal pay for equal work," not "equal pay when calculated as an average of what all your male and female employees earn regardless of tenure, position, etc."?

 

[Gaborn]

exactly provide a link, possibly without even reading it. Fail to discuss the link, but make some "oh obama better watch out" like comment. Classic 140.15. Do you know the relative positions of each and every staffer? Do you know how the pay is determined? All answers questions lead to a fairly certain - NO.

Sad thing is you know it. I'm not sure I can say the same thing for 140... hope you're not becoming something worse.

All I'm saying is that, first of all, I've never seen any specific evidence that Palin opposes equal pay (Obama said she did, but to my knowledge he was basing it on association with McCain), McCain has certainly voted against bills for equal pay, but still, it's interesting that Obama's staff is not well represented by women at higher levels (and thus, higher pay grades).

 

[Particle Physicist]

All I'm saying is that, first of all, I've never seen any specific evidence that Palin opposes equal pay (Obama said she did, but to my knowledge he was basing it on association with McCain), McCain has certainly voted against bills for equal pay, but still, it's interesting that Obama's staff is not well represented by women at higher levels (and thus, higher pay grades).

how else are we supposed to know what she thinks if she refuses to have legit interviews?

and just because there are more men than women working for obama, doesnt mean that women are not represented well.

i cant believe you are defending mccain on this!! the hell is wrong with you?

 

[Stinkles]

All I'm saying is that, first of all, I've never seen any specific evidence that Palin opposes equal pay (Obama said she did, but to my knowledge he was basing it on association with McCain), McCain has certainly voted against bills for equal pay, but still, it's interesting that Obama's staff is not well represented by women at higher levels (and thus, higher pay grades).

superfail

 

[Gaborn]

how else are we supposed to know what she thinks if she refuses to have legit interviews?

and just because there are more men than women working for obama, doesnt mean that women are not represented well.

i cant believe you are defending mccain on this!! the hell is wrong with you?

I'm not defending McCain, I'm just providing a link that I found interesting, not necessarily persuasive but interesting. I AM questioning the claim that was made on the last page that Palin opposes equal pay because so far as I know it's not supported.

 

[Cloudy]

I AM questioning the claim that was made on the last page that Palin opposes equal pay because so far as I know it's not supported.

She's on McCain's ticket. The assumption is that she supports his policies..

 

[Killthee]

Can someone please post the graph of McCain/Obama's tax plans?

 

[Gaborn]

She's on McCain's ticket. The assumption is that she supports his policies..

There's a difference between upholding a policy and supporting it. Cheney has upheld Bush's stance supporting the FMA, but do you think he really supports it?

 

[DarkMage619]

I'm not defending McCain, I'm just providing a link that I found interesting, not necessarily persuasive but interesting. I AM questioning the claim that was made on the last page that Palin opposes equal pay because so far as I know it's not supported.

Who is at the top of the ticket? If McCain doesn't support equal pay for women it doesn't matter if Palin does or not. She will be working for HIM therefore she doesn't support equal pay for women like herself.

The Dark One

 

[Tamanon]

There's a difference between upholding a policy and supporting it. Cheney has upheld Bush's stance supporting the FMA, but do you think he really supports it?

Knowing Cheney, yes I certainly do.

 

[Gaborn]

Who is at the top of the ticket? If McCain doesn't support equal pay for women it doesn't matter if Palin does or not. She will be working for HIM therefore she doesn't support equal pay for women like herself.

The Dark One

And as I stated above, that's a bit of a stretch. A VP and a President can disagree on some issues.

Tamanon - Then... you really haven't paid attention to him in interviews where the subject is brought up.

 

[BobLoblaw]

It's probably been posted, but there's a GREAT article on Palin on MSNBC.com (from the NYT). Scary stuff.

 

[DarkMage619]

And as I stated above, that's a bit of a stretch. A VP and a President can disagree on some issues.

Tamanon - Then... you really haven't paid attention to him in interviews where the subject is brought up.

How does that impact the people? If he is in charge and she works for him that won't change his publically held stance and women will NOT benefit. She might as well agree with him cause women lose out either way.

The Dark One

 

[Halka]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzYHcT2n_U4

Obama's speech from today..

Great speech -- FINALLY back on real issues.

The thing I most respect about Obama is this guy can digest and deflect BS that would tear down any other candidate's campaign, and he comes out of it even stronger. He knows how to deal with problems with intelligence and grace under fire. If that's not an indication of how he will conduct himself in the Oval Office, I don't know what is.

The Rev. Wright ordeal would have torn apart most candidates. Obama came out of it with one of the most resonant, honest discussion on race in the United States in years. A 40-plus minute speech that some 4-5 million people have watched on Youtube.

Now he's eviscerating the entire Republican campaign strategy for the past 8+ years in a matter of 30 minutes.

 

[maximum360]

http://www.tampabay.com/news/perspective/article806980.ece

Cousin John, where did you go?


In print: Sunday, September 14, 2008

Recently, my father gave me an envelope full of press clippings which chronicle the history of a very notable part of our family. Most of the articles come from the Florida Times-Union, a Jacksonville-based paper he read during the '60s and '70s when he taught at Lake City Community College. They detail the years in which my cousin, then-Lt. Cmdr. John S. McCain, was imprisoned in North Vietnam.

John and I are related through our grandmothers. Katherine Vaulx McCain and Huetta Vaulx Boles, both of Fayetteville, Ark., were sisters. My side of the Vaulx family represents a long line of Democrats, but it is with no small amount of pride that we've followed the life and career of now-Sen. John McCain.

My dad knew John when he was a child, and maintained a close relationship with his father, Adm. Jack McCain. When my dad was a teenager, the McCains visited his family in Arkansas around the time my great-uncle, John's grandfather, was commanding an aircraft carrier group in the Pacific during World War II.

He and Jack remained close over the years, exchanging many letters while my dad was in Lake City and Jack was commanding the fleet in the Pacific during Vietnam. When John was taken prisoner, the letters my dad sent took on a tone of deep concern and sympathy.

My father is, above anything else, dedicated to his family. Although he had never met John's then-wife, Carol, he knew that she lived an hour away, just outside of Jacksonville. He did everything he could to make sure she was taken care of during that time.

Although neither my father nor I have ever voted for a Republican, when John threw his hat in the ring in 2000, we were both very proud and encouraged, and not just because he's our relative. This was the first Republican who, on a national stage, was saying things like, "If we repeal Roe vs. Wade tomorrow, thousands of young American women will be performing illegal and dangerous operations," and, "Neither party should be defined by pandering to the outer-reaches of American politics and the agents of intolerance." Wow!

Here was a man who was not abiding by partisan lines, who was, instead, living up to his promise of "straight talk" and commonsense thinking. The right-wing Republican base may not have agreed with everything he said, but the rest of America certainly respected him for speaking his mind honestly.

Jump ahead to the campaign Sen. McCain is currently running. Clearly, a lot can change in eight years. Our nation has gone from a time of unparalleled prosperity and peace to one marked by debt in the trillions of dollars, record foreclosures, and a global reputation for warmongering and neo-imperialism.

So, where is the straight-talking, commonsense John McCain of 2000? I'm afraid he is long gone, replaced by a desperate version of himself who seems to contradict nearly everything he once stood for.

What becomes apparent in his ideological about-face is just how out of touch McCain really is with America's working families.

In a time when the country is facing the worst housing crisis in the memory of most Americans, McCain couldn't even recall how many homes he owns. When asked how many homes my side of the family owns, I can answer you pretty quickly. Zero.

Just like so many working families in this country, we were nearly ruined by the ongoing mortgage and foreclosure crisis. Our family home of three generations was sold at auction last year. The story is a familiar one: We were suckered into a refinance deal during the real estate boom, and when times got tough, the near criminally deregulated mortgage companies changed the rules on us.

What was John McCain's response to this? He lumped together all the families who fell victim to the smarmy sales pitches from subprime lenders, calling us "irresponsible," a move the New York Times described as "mean-spirited and economically naive."

What contortions has this new John McCain twisted himself into in order to win this election? When asked last year about his stance on abortion, he told a group of supporters, "I do not support Roe vs. Wade. It should be overturned." This statement not only sharply contrasts with what he said back in the 2000 election cycle, but is also at odds with a majority of American public opinion, according to the most recent Harris poll on the subject.

Further, McCain's decision to put the antichoice, creationist Sarah Palin on his ticket appears to be motivated completely by a political desire to shore up the radical right evangelical base with whom he's been at odds for so long. This is the same woman who claimed in June "that our national leaders are sending (our soldiers) out on a task that is from God."

A part of me is made very sad to write this article. As I've said, my family has followed John's life and career with no absence of pride. If there ever were a Republican we might consider voting for, it would have been my cousin John.

But, as he continually demonstrates in this campaign, my cousin John is long gone. "Straight talk" has been replaced with "flip-flop." Saddest all, this is the same man who, when campaigning in 2000, told a crowd of supporters, "I don't think Bill Gates needs a tax cut. I think your parents do."

My parents, John, need some help after the economic destruction Bush has wrought in the last eight years, but it's clear you're not the one who'll give it to us. America's working families no longer recognize you, nor does your own.

Adam Vaulx Boles lives and works in Tallahassee.

 

[Mandark]

Bush's stance on the FMA was to say he supported it and win the votes of homophobes in 2004 then to let it sit and rot.

I don't see Cheney objecting strenuously to that.

 

[Gaborn]

How does that impact the people? If he is in charge and she works for him that won't change his publically held stance and women will NOT benefit. She might as well agree with him cause women lose out either way.

The Dark One

Well, keep in mind that the Dems will more than probably still control congress either way, so it's up to them whether they can pass it and potentially override a veto (assuming they would have to), more probably I don't see McCain vetoing it if the Dems pass it.

Spoiler

Also, just for your sake you might be careful about faux signatures, as far as I know they're against forum rules

 

[Tamanon]

Eh, with the way Congress has been acting with a Republican president, I think they're going to need a filibuster-proof majority to do anything with a Democratic president.

 

[numble]

I provided a link, if you disagree with the link as Cloudy did (by citing a commenter :lol :lol ) you're free to do so, with facts please.

Here you go... since you wanted it:

On this page, you can find disbursement reports for all presidential campaigns. To see how much they paid their employees, click on the month, click on the campaign, and click "disbursements by payee."

http://query.nictusa.com/pres/

To see what staff positions are in the Obama campaign for each state, resort to this unofficial listing by "Democracy In Action," an organization in D.C.: They actually don't list them outright, so you have to work at the URLs, basically, the last two letters of the html page correspond to the state that the campaign was in.

Examples:
New Hampshire: http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2008/obama/obamaorgnh.html
Nevada: http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2008/obama/obamaorgnv.html

When searching, you need to make sure you are looking at disbursements around the same time that the primary campaign was in, as these pages all show what the primary campaign staffers were.

Compare field organizers, regional field directors, voter file managers, get out the vote/caucus coordinators, and college organizers--thats the best way of researching to see if pay across genders are equitable, regardless of seniority, since I believe these positions do not have pay discrimination due to seniority and experience. Also remember that different states have different state income taxes, and some people don't work the entire month--some had vacations, some of these primary campaigns were 2-3 week affairs, etc.

I could give you the pages to the general state field staff, but those are now all campaigns coordinated with local campaigns and paid by the local state offices (so not paid by Obama For America and not under those specific FEC pages). There also is a list of all people that are part of the national general campaign, but for the most part, those have seniority and experience factored into pay (I'm sorry that they aren't as socialistic as you would like and actually pay people according to their ability--as much as you would like, Equal Pay For Equal Work does not mean a random man should be paid the same as a random woman).

Have fun. I look forward to your findings.

 

[harSon]

Actually they did mention that Obama has fewer top female aides then McCain does.

So you're recommending that he should enforce affirmative action within his campaign?

 

[JayDubya]

So you're recommending that he should put affirmative action within his campaign?

Sure. I think the relevant turn of phrase here would be "Practice the bullshit what you preach?"

 

[Gaborn]

So you're recommending that he should enforce affirmative action within his campaign?

If he claims that affirmative action is a good thing? Yes. If not? then no. I'm not sure I've heard that Obama opposes affirmative action though.

Or, what Jaydub said.

 

[Stoney Mason]

Well, keep in mind that the Dems will more than probably still control congress either way, so it's up to them whether they can pass it and potentially override a veto (assuming they would have to), more probably I don't see McCain vetoing it if the Dems pass it.

Spoiler

Also, just for your sake you might be careful about faux signatures, as far as I know they're against forum rules

You make a lot of assumptions about Mccain...

 

[GhaleonEB]

PALIN'S 'BRIDGE TO NOWHERE' LINE RETURNS

CARSON CITY, Nev. -- In her first solo campaign rally outside of Alaska, Gov. Sarah Palin drew an enthusiastic crowd at the Pony Express Pavilion Saturday and returned to a familiar refrain about the “Bridge to Nowhere.”

Palin has come under fire in recent days for misleadingly saying she told Congress “thanks but no thanks,” refusing an earmark for a bridge to a sparsely inhabited island in her home state. Independent groups and media fact-checkers have said Palin advocated for the federal earmark before opposing it, only ended after Congress had essentially killed it, and kept the $223 million for the appropriation after the project was killed.

Palin had cut the refrain from her speech during her three-day visit to Alaska. But she came back to it today, citing it as an example of earmark reform she and McCain would push for in the White House.

“I told Congress thanks but no thanks to that Bridge to Nowhere -- that if our state wanted to build that bridge, we would build it ourselves," she said.

She's still at it. Amazing.

 

[Gaborn]

You make a lot of assumptions about Mccain...

From a political standpoint a senator voting no on something is a lot different than a President. Presidents generally pick their battles more carefully and I don't see McCain benefiting from that fight.

 

[Particle Physicist]

I'm not defending McCain, I'm just providing a link that I found interesting, not necessarily persuasive but interesting. I AM questioning the claim that was made on the last page that Palin opposes equal pay because so far as I know it's not supported.

yeah. you are only posting it in response to someone claiming mccain doesnt support equal pay. it wasnt a random posting. you were defending mccain. basically saying.. look obama does it too!!!

and the claim did not say palin opposes equal pay, but the ticket opposes it.

this is what you quoted:

"That makes zero sense. Hey . . . let's support the ticket with No abortion even cases of rape and incest! Oh, did I tell you that they don't support equal pay for women! Woo-hoo!"

 

[Diablos]

Has anyone read the Rolling Stone article?

http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/10432334/was_the_2004_election_stolen

This article is HUGE. I'm not posting all of it... feel free to put emphasis on what you find to be most interesting. This part is pretty amazing (depressing):

On the evening of the vote, reporters at each of the major networks were briefed by pollsters at 7:54 p.m. Kerry, they were informed, had an insurmountable lead and would win by a rout: at least 309 electoral votes to Bush's 174, with fifty-five too close to call.(28) In London, Prime Minister Tony Blair went to bed contemplating his relationship with President-elect Kerry.(29)

As the last polling stations closed on the West Coast, exit polls showed Kerry ahead in ten of eleven battleground states -- including commanding leads in Ohio and Florida -- and winning by a million and a half votes nationally. The exit polls even showed Kerry breathing down Bush's neck in supposed GOP strongholds Virginia and North Carolina.(30) Against these numbers, the statistical likelihood of Bush winning was less than one in 450,000.(31) ''Either the exit polls, by and large, are completely wrong,'' a Fox News analyst declared, ''or George Bush loses.''(32)

But as the evening progressed, official tallies began to show implausible disparities -- as much as 9.5 percent -- with the exit polls. In ten of the eleven battleground states, the tallied margins departed from what the polls had predicted. In every case, the shift favored Bush. Based on exit polls, CNN had predicted Kerry defeating Bush in Ohio by a margin of 4.2 percentage points. Instead, election results showed Bush winning the state by 2.5 percent. Bush also tallied 6.5 percent more than the polls had predicted in Pennsylvania, and 4.9 percent more in Florida.(33)

According to Steven F. Freeman, a visiting scholar at the University of Pennsylvania who specializes in research methodology, the odds against all three of those shifts occurring in concert are one in 660,000. ''As much as we can say in sound science that something is impossible,'' he says, ''it is impossible that the discrepancies between predicted and actual vote count in the three critical battleground states of the 2004 election could have been due to chance or random error.'' (See The Tale of the Exit Polls)

Puzzled by the discrepancies, Freeman laboriously examined the raw polling data released by Edison/Mitofsky in January 2005. ''I'm not even political -- I despise the Democrats,'' he says. ''I'm a survey expert. I got into this because I was mystified about how the exit polls could have been so wrong.'' In his forthcoming book, Was the 2004 Presidential Election Stolen? Exit Polls, Election Fraud, and the Official Count, Freeman lays out a statistical analysis of the polls that is deeply troubling.

If it happened in 2004, it can happen again. Wow. That's awful.

 

[Tamanon]

She's still at it. Amazing.

Considering that the McCain camp has actually started using the argument of "different interpretations of the facts", it's no surprise. They're now just in full-on lie mode, who cares who calls them out for it.

 

[Stoney Mason]

From a political standpoint a senator voting no on something is a lot different than a President. Presidents generally pick their battles more carefully and I don't see McCain benefiting from that fight.

Yes. We all know he's more politician than maverick.

 

[Gaborn]

Yes. We all know he's more politician than maverick.

Absolutely, his maverick act is mostly for show, he's a politician at heart along with just about everyone else.

 

[Beavertown]

Sure. I think the relevant turn of phrase here would be "Practice the bullshit what you preach?"

Is he supposed to magically inflate the number of women in the field overnight?

I think the ratio is somewhere around 1 woman for every 5 men, so unless he's under that, then I would think he is doing his part.

Or should he be like McCain and hire unqualified people just because they happen to have a vagina?

 

[Brannon]

She's still at it. Amazing.

It's automatic at this point. She probably didn't know she said it until a minute after it left her lips.

 

[harSon]

Sure. I think the relevant turn of phrase here would be "Practice the bullshit what you preach?"

He wants equal pay for women, not a system where women chosen over men despite qualifications. The article that he posted, like mentioned before, does not include position, tenure, etc.

If he claims that affirmative action is a good thing? Yes. If not? then no. I'm not sure I've heard that Obama opposes affirmative action though.

Or, what Jaydub said.

I believe he is against the current method of Affirmative Action, I'm not entirely sure, but I think he wants to reconstruct the current method into one based on economic status.

 

[Cloudy]

Or should he be like McCain and hire unqualified people just because they happen to have a vagina