Support NeoGAF

[NetMapel]

This country fucking always about abortion, gay marriage, and religion everywhere. Is it going to take a hundred years for the progressives in this country to win on these issues? By then EU & Canada will be battling eachother on android rights, and we'll be a step behind again.

Ah ha, we're already moving towards that direction

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080918.wtrade18/BNStory/International/home

September 18, 2008 at 2:00 AM EDT

LONDON — Canadian and European officials say they plan to begin negotiating a massive agreement to integrate Canada's economy with the 27 nations of the European Union, with preliminary talks to be launched at an Oct. 17 summit in Montreal three days after the federal election.
Trade Minister Michael Fortier and his staff have been engaged for the past two months with EU Trade Commissioner Peter Mandelson and the representatives of European governments in an effort to begin what a senior EU official involved in the talks described in an interview yesterday as “deep economic integration negotiations.”
If successful, Canada would be the first developed nation to have open trade relations with the EU, which has completely open borders between its members but imposes steep trade and investment barriers on outsiders.
The proposed pact would far exceed the scope of older agreements such as NAFTA by encompassing not only unrestricted trade in goods, services and investment and the removal of tariffs, but also the free movement of skilled people and an open market in government services and procurement – which would require that Canadian governments allow European companies to bid as equals on government contracts for both goods and services and end the favouring of local or national providers of public-sector services.
Previous efforts to reach a trade pact with Europe have failed, most recently in 2005 with the collapse of the proposed Trade and Investment Enhancement Agreement.
But with the breakdown of World Trade Organization talks in July, European officials have become much more interested in opening a bilateral trade and economic integration deal with North America.
A pact with the United States would be politically impossible in Europe, senior European Commission officials said.
A newly completed study of the proposed deal, which European officials said Prime Minister Stephen Harper decided not to release until after the election, concludes that the pact would increase bilateral trade and investment by at least $40-billion a year, mainly in trade in services.
Ottawa officials say they have overcome what they see as their biggest hurdle: the resistance of provincial governments to an agreement that would force them to allow European corporations to provide their government services, if their bids are the lowest.
Although Ottawa's current list of foreign-policy priorities does not include European issues, European and Canadian officials say Mr. Harper has been heavily engaged with the proposed trade pact.
The two governments have completed a detailed study of the proposed agreement that will be unveiled shortly after the election, should the Conservatives win.
Both Ottawa and Brussels have had staff work on a draft text for a deal they had hoped would be introduced at a Canada-EU summit, to be attended by French President Nicolas Sarkozy, European Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso and Mr. Harper in Montreal on Oct. 17. France currently holds the rotating presidency of the EU, and Mr. Sarkozy has said that he hopes to make economic integration with Canada one of his accomplishments.
Last Wednesday, a top Ottawa trade official wrote to Mr. Mandelson to propose “the launch of comprehensive negotiations toward a closer economic partnership at the Canada-EU Leaders Summit, to be held on October 17,” and stressed that all 13 provincial and territorial governments had agreed to the proposed pact at a July 18 meeting in Quebec City.
Because of the election, Mr. Harper appears to have decided not to unveil a full text of the proposed agreement, but instead to use the summit to inaugurate the trade talks with the launch of a “scoping exercise” that will quickly set the goals of the pact and lead to formal “comprehensive trade and investment negotiations” to begin in “early 2009,” according to communications between senior Canadian and European officials examined by The Globe and Mail.
Proponents, including all of Canada's major business-lobby organizations, are in favour of the deal because it would open Canadian exporters to a market of 500 million people and allow the world's largest pool of investment capital into Canadian companies without restrictions.
Because Canada's fractious provinces have killed attempts at a trade pact in the past, Europe is demanding that Canada accept a more far-reaching agreement than Canada and Europe had attempted before, in an effort to win a stronger commitment, EU officials said.
Major “deal-breaker” conditions, officials said, include full agreement by all 10 provinces, especially on the issue of European companies providing government services, and what are known as “geographic indicators,” which forbid products such as champagne and feta cheese to be produced under those names outside their nations of origin. Controversially for Canada, this may soon be extended so only English producers can use the name cheddar on their cheese.
However, both sides agree that there is far more political will to negotiate a major deal, on both sides than there ever has been.
“I am far more optimistic this time than I've ever been in the past. … I feel very confident that we will be able to launch something on Oct. 17 that will give us a better chance than we've ever had before to get a full deal in place,” said Roy MacLaren, head of the Canada-Europe Round Table, a pro-trade business organization that has been heavily involved in the negotiations.
As a trade minister in the Jean Chrétien government and later as a diplomat, Mr. MacLaren was involved in several previous attempts at a Canada-EU pact.

First economic integration, then android right debates :lol

 

[Branduil]

Not even slightly.

I have layers. I don't agree with late term abortions, unless the mother is in serious danger. But just because I don't think life begins at conception doesn't mean I have to tow the party line.

Your outlook is completely black and white. Abortion = bad.

Or JayDubs Hitmen in white coats. That's black and white.

If the young woman can survive carrying the child of a man that took away her very rights, and even raise the child I give her my props. I won't look at her as an idiot for doing so. It's her choice.

You wish to remove the choice from the equation entirely. Black and white.

It's not that there are no shades of gray. But in some cases, one aspect must trump nearly all other considerations. In that way, it is black and white. Because either a child is born, or it's not. What's the shade of gray there?

 

[Thunder Monkey]

This is neither utopian, nor definitively libertarian or not, but this is my issue stance.

And I love you for it.:lol

Seems like you don't agree with all of your ideology though. Personal freedoms are the battlecry of the Libertarian. I guess I can see where it comes from. If you really believe those cells are a person it would infringe on their rights to personal freedom as well.

I like you Jay, Branduil I'm still not too sure about, but I'm willing to give him a shot.

It's not that there are no shades of gray. But in some cases, one aspect must trump nearly all other considerations. In that way, it is black and white. Because either a child is born, or it's not. What's the shade of gray there?

Whether or not that load of spunk stuck to her inner uteran walls is a person maybe?

We can create a life from liver cells. Does that mean that alcoholics are "Hitmen" when they kill that potentially life creating tissue?

We are in a different age of man then we when abortion was legalized. We know that clump of cells has no brain activity, we know it has less then a 50/50 shot at becoming a living being.

Do we put someone on trial for masturbating? Those cells could potentially be a person given the right circumstances. Under the right circumstances those embryo's could be a person too.

That's where the problem lies. Any portion of you could be used to create a person.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

It's not that there are no shades of gray. But in some cases, one aspect must trump nearly all other considerations. In that way, it is black and white. Because either a child is born, or it's not. What's the shade of gray there?

So as a general rule of thumb you put "potential life" above "already alive"? Just wondering where you stand here.

 

[JayDubya]

So as a general rule of thumb you put "potential life" above "already alive"? Just wondering where you stand here.

You guys keep bringing up "potential" as if we should agree that it applies here. We don't.

 

[Keylime]

You guys keep bringing up "potential" as if we should agree that it applies here. We don't.

So in general you want something that can't defend itself to be cared for (cells), but if something can defend itself (people) then they are on their own?

Is that a fair assessment?

 

[Jason's Ultimatum]

I had two libertarians mock me because I said raising taxes on the rich along with a balanced budget creates a disinflation, resulting to low interest rates that allows people to invest without the fear of high inflation.

 

[Branduil]

So as a general rule of thumb you put "potential life" above "already alive"? Just wondering where you stand here.

A human zygote is already alive and has human DNA- nothing "potential" about it.

 

[JayDubya]

Is that a fair assessment?

Not in the least.

A just government / society protects the rights of the living human beings that live within it.

You see inequity where I see achieving equity.

 

[Hitokage]

A human zygote is already alive and has human DNA- nothing "potential" about it.

It's not an independent organism. Take it out and it dies, period.

 

[MIMIC]

I heard on MSNBC (Hardball) that Palin was beating Obama in Cafepress merch. So what did I do? Bought two Obama shirts! I never bought anything from Cafepress and I didn't have any Obama stuff (other than a button and a lame t-shirt) so I figured it was a good time to get something.

 

[gkryhewy]

A human zygote is already alive and has human DNA- nothing "potential" about it.

Potential in that it's entirely dependent on the resources of the mother for its continued existence.

Blah blah blah

I hate it when you abortibots take over PoliGAF. It's not even a slow news cycle this time.

 

[GoutPatrol]

Yeah they've been doing it for a couple months. Their "Race Card" episode is hilarious.:lol

http://www.236.com/video/2008/get_your_war_on_the_race_card_8303.php

:lol :lol

 

[Fragamemnon]

Continued uptick in the tracking polls and some big polling in IA and IN probably caused a lot of this swing.

 

[Hitokage]

This is neither utopian, nor definitively libertarian or not, but this is my issue stance.

How correct you are, forgive me.

Dystopian.

 

[Keylime]

Not in the least.

A just government / society protects the rights of the living human beings that live within it.

You see inequity where I see achieving equity.

But you don't view good health as a right to human beings, correct?

 

[Learn2read]

I heard on MSNBC (Hardball) that Palin was beating Obama in Cafepress merch. So what did I do? Bought two Obama shirts! I never bought anything from Cafepress and I didn't have any Obama stuff (other than a button and a lame t-shirt) so I figured it was a good time to get something.

Well, people have been buying Obama items for like a year now, and it's not like the shirts they've bought during the primaries are suddenly obselete.

 

[Hitokage]

But you don't view good health as a right to human beings, correct?

He picks and chooses which quotes of John Locke to respect.

 

[Branduil]

It's not an independent organism. Take it out and it dies, period.

I wasn't aware independence was a prerequisite for personhood.

If we want to devolve the conversation into cliche'd talking points, comatose people on breathing machines and siamese twins die too if you separate them, and they're certainly human.

 

[artredis1980]

second?

 

[Deleted member 17706]

A human zygote is already alive and has human DNA- nothing "potential" about it.

Ok, so "potential functioning human being" over "fully functional human being", then?

 

[JayDubya]

It's not an independent organism. Take it out and it dies, period.

If that was your argument, then you'd have to say that the quality that warrants legal personhood is a sufficient quantity of surfactant in the lungs.

 

[Rur0ni]

New Poll 9/19/08

Rasmussen
[U]Maine[/U]
50% Obama
46% McCain
[B]+4[/B] Obama

McCain gained some ground here. Presumably the Palin pick.

 

[Hitokage]

I wasn't aware independence was a prerequisite for personhood.

If we want to devolve the conversation into cliche'd talking points, comatose people on breathing machines and siamese twins die too if you separate them, and they're certainly human.

And yet twins are routinely separated to favor the life of one over the other. Where's the outrage?

 

[Instigator]

Ah man, abortion talk again.

 

[Door2Dawn]

Third?

 

[artredis1980]

Why does CNN say McCain has gained in EV even after Obama bounced back in national polls:

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/09/19/electoral-map-update-mccain-gains/

but 538 says the opposite

 

[Thunder Monkey]

Ah man, abortion talk again.

It happens.

Well guys, I've had fun, but that grass isn't going to mow itself. (or is it?)

Glad to see Obamarama kicking ass on 538 again.

 

[Macam]

Bill Clinton heads to The View on Monday

Bill Clinton will make his first appearance Monday on "The View." Will Barbara Walters or Joy Behar be as tough on Clinton as they were last week on McCain? Or is this Elizabeth Hasselbeck's time to shine?

 

[XxenobladerxX]

Fourth?

 

[Stoney Mason]

Why does CNN say McCain has gained in EV even after Obama bounced back in national polls:

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/09/19/electoral-map-update-mccain-gains/

but 538 says the opposite

Because it all depends on how you interpret the data and how up to date the data is. Nobody is "right".

 

[besada]

If we want to devolve the conversation into cliche'd talking points

Too late.

 

[Learn2read]

Bill Clinton will make his first appearance Monday on "The View." Will Barbara Walters or Joy Behar be as tough on Clinton as they were last week on McCain? Or is this Elizabeth Hasselbeck's time to shine?

Bill's running for office? Also, Elizabeth Hasselback is dumber than a bag of dicks. Bill would chew her up and spit her out.

 

[NullPointer]

Bill Clinton heads to The View on Monday

Holding people to account for their own statements, when they paid for those statements to get distributed to a nationwide audience - that's being tough on someone?

 

[Stoney Mason]

Bill's running for office? Also, Elizabeth Hasselback is dumber than a bag of dicks. Bill would chew her up and spit her out.

It's so dumb I don't even know why they printed that statement.

 

[Branduil]

And yet twins are routinely separated to favor the life of one over the other. Where's the outrage?

If it's not done because one or both will die anyway, then it is outrageous.

P.S. Do not delete this post this time please.

 

[Blackhead]

So what's up with the mccain speech that obama is using the economic crisis for political gain? and that obama is profiting from the crisis? Is it another lie?

 

[Keylime]

I guess to end my little abortion tinge, I think that if you are pro-life, than you have to be for UHC, otherwise you make no sense whatsoever.

You can't demand that life must be created always when set in motion and then not care for all of these unwantables once they are born.

If you wanted it so bad, you take care of it.

 

[Hitokage]

If it's not done because one or both will die anyway, then it is outrageous.

I know you'll probably support the action in that case, but I know both sounds horrible to JayDubya. The only moral action to him is to let both die, as he extensively argued in various references to the train-switch problem.

 

[syllogism]

Bill Clinton heads to The View on Monday

Also The Daily Show, not sure when

e: September 23, 2008

 

[Extollere]

This is a little OT but someone help me out here with this. The gov't is bailing out banks and big corporations for $500 billion. This is tax payer's money. Doesn't using this money mean that funding for other operations or departments will decrease? Does this impose any threat whatsoever to any of Obama's proposed plans?

 

[TheKingsCrown]

This is a little OT but someone help me out here with this. The gov't is bailing out banks and big corporations for $500 billion. This is tax payer's money. Doesn't using this money mean that funding for other operations or departments will decrease? Does this impose any threat whatsoever to any of Obama's proposed plans?

Not if you print money.

It just devalues currency. Its a short term measure designed to make things look not as horrible for Mccain.

 

[Instigator]

It happens.

Well guys, I've had fun, but that grass isn't going to mow itself. (or is it?)

Glad to see Obamarama kicking ass on 538 again.

Well, short of banning those subjects, maybe they should make rules for these threads, gay marriage and abortion can only be brought up when brought up in the campaign or something.

 

[Jason's Ultimatum]

This is a little OT but someone help me out here with this. The gov't is bailing out banks and big corporations for $500 billion. This is tax payer's money. Doesn't using this money mean that funding for other operations or departments will decrease? Does this impose any threat whatsoever to any of Obama's proposed plans?

The government will just print more money, leading to inflation.

 

[StopMakingSense]

This is a little OT but someone help me out here with this. The gov't is bailing out banks and big corporations for $500 billion. This is tax payer's money. Doesn't using this money mean that funding for other operations or departments will decrease? Does this impose any threat whatsoever to any of Obama's proposed plans?

Also, they are mostly structured as loans, not straight up gifts.

 

[Hitokage]

Yeah, we can inflate our way out of debt. Who cares about million dollar loans if the average fast-food worker makes that in an hour?

 

[Cheebs]

Also The Daily Show, not sure when

e: September 23, 2008

Isnt that the week right before Bill begins doing rallies for Obama? It must be his little pre-tour media run.

 

[Branduil]

I know you'll probably support the action in that case, but I know both sounds horrible to JayDubya. The only moral action to him is to let both die, as he extensively argued in various references to the train-switch problem.

I can't speak for JayDubya. If it's truly a case where one or both would almost certainly die, that's the only situation where it would be acceptable to me to choose.

 

[Hitokage]

I can't speak for JayDubya. If it's truly a case where one or both would almost certainly die, that's the only situation where it would be acceptable to me to choose.

Of course not, but picking on JayDubya is the only way I'll get any enjoyment out of an abortion debate.

 

[Stoney Mason]

Biden tapping a reporter's chest, telling him, 'you need to work on your pecs'... Developing...