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[Fragamemnon]

Looks very much like he's letting them do the dirty work, though I'm not sure what his planned endgame is.

I'm not sure his campaign knows what it is either. What they REALLY wanted was to go and veto, on the record, a bailout plan supported by Bush and the Democrats that was full of perceived wasteful giveaways. The final bill actually turned out not so bad, the McCain team had to do something so they lent the House GOP cover to create more chaos and pressure on the Dem leadership to align with Bush in a confrontation.

Dodd and Frank basically said "fuck you turds". In the end the whole thing is a wash and McCain basically fled Washington and now, IMO, has left the House GOP out to dry. They are going to get reamed by the media if the markets collapse tomorrow, and McCain still has enough wiggle room to get out of it somewhat.

 

[mattx5]

Apologies if this has been discussed already, I'll edit if thats the case:

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20081006/schanberg
Why has John McCain blocked information on MIAs?

John McCain, who has risen to political prominence on his image as a Vietnam POW war hero, has, inexplicably, worked very hard to hide from the public stunning information about American prisoners in Vietnam who, unlike him, didn't return home. Throughout his Senate career, McCain has quietly sponsored and pushed into federal law a set of prohibitions that keep the most revealing information about these men buried as classified documents. Thus the war hero people would logically imagine to be a determined crusader for the interests of POWs and their families became instead the strange champion of hiding the evidence and closing the books.

 

[MaddenNFL64]

Krowley, there's a reason Libertarians don't run shit anywhere in the world.

 

[grandjedi6]

I'm not sure his campaign knows what it is either. What they REALLY wanted was to go and veto, on the record, a bailout plan supported by Bush and the Democrats that was full of perceived wasteful giveaways. The final bill actually turned out not so bad, the McCain team had to do something so they lent the House GOP cover to create more chaos and pressure on the Dem leadership to align with Bush in a confrontation.

Dodd and Frank basically said "fuck you turds". In the end the whole thing is a wash and McCain basically fled Washington and now, IMO, has left the House GOP out to dry. They are going to get reamed by the media if the markets collapse tomorrow, and McCain still has enough wiggle room to get out of it somewhat.

While potentially true I suppose there really is little to no evidence to support this theory. A little too extreme and random to be entirely plausible imo

 

[Chiggs]

I am so utterly depressed by this. It's devastating and embarassing, and I really hate the hell out of Congress and the current administration. They're a joke. All of them. Rot in hell.

I honestly mean this: I would not be opposed to public hangings for people involved in this Wall Street bullshit if they're found guilty in a court of law. You greedy little fucks, I hope you pay for the contempt you've shown for your own countrymen. Traiterous, treasonous pieces of shit.

We're on the fucking brink of economic collapse.

...

On a lighter note, I did just pick up a 1GB Radeon 4870 to help stimulate the economy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMTz9nIUkGc

 

[Iksenpets]

The problem isn't votes. The senate is an easy 80+ "for" vote so far, from the information we have.

The House can pass it with a straight party line vote.

BUT the problem is political cover for the House Democrats. This could be deadly for them.

They might have to do that though. Save the country, and lose the House majority.

Ok. I just seem to be continually underestimating how unpopular the bail out is. I didn't realize it was that risky to be supporting it without Republican support.

 

[Krowley]

Krowley, there's a reason Libertarians don't run shit anywhere in the world.

It's because people are too afraid to let the markets work like they should. they always step in and do things to help themsleves in the short term. Libertarianism defies human nature as much as communism does, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't work.

Obviously we're going to do something. We don't have the balls to sit back and let it happen, even if we should.

edit// And BTW, I'm not going to swear that we nessecarily should let things fall apart. That's what i want to do, but the economy is very complex and I understand that I could easily be wrong.

It's a tough situation for sure. I just don't trust the government enough to let them handle something like this, and I don't trust wallstreet either. I do trust the free market, even though I know it will be painful.

 

[soul creator]

lol

People always say, “Oh, if Barack Obama was white, he’d have the election in the bag.”

I guess that’s interesting to think about.

But I have more fun thinking about this:

What if John McCain was black?


I haven’t compiled a list of all the stuff the white John McCain has said or done that would destroy the candidacy of a black John McCain. Why? Because I don’t have twenty billion pieces of paper to write the list on. But you don’t need a list. All you need is your imagination. When you go to bed tonight, try this exercise:

Think of the things White John McCain has said in, oh, the past month. Think of some of the decisions he’s made recently. Remember the whole “Zapatero” kerfuffle? What about this new thing where McCain claimed his campaign manager hadn’t taken money from Freddie Mac but actually he had? LOL, now just imagine John McCain was a 72-year-old black man. And he was running for president. And he thought people maybe might vote for him. LOL, LOL, be sure to warn your bunkmate that you will be giggling in your sleep!

UPDATE: And what if Black John McCain suspended his campaign and tried to postpone the debates because he was scared of the economy? OMG LOL OMG LOL.

 

[Hitokage]

It's because people are too afraid to let the markets work like they should.

Because we already tried it in the 19th Century up to the early 20th Century. It didn't work out so well.

 

[thefit]

You got it all wrong he's gonna crash land onto the commitee too this song

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8rZWw9HE7o

Thats where he gets his name too, from a frigging 80's Tom Cruise movie. I could never fucking land on the carrier in the NES game I needed the powerglove for that!

anyhoo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0663DHLr58

CBS News reports that McCain's alternative proposal includes "fewer regulations and corporate tax breaks"

are you fucking serious?!??!!? WTF?!?!?!

Thats what pissed off the Democrats, McCain sat there and said nothing while his contingent of GOP footsoldiers led by Boehner, who just a few days ago was bewildered by what was happening and leaned on the Democrats to save them from themselves once again, reached into his pocket and sprang this shit. This cought everyone off gaurd including those in the GOP who where going along with the presnit and the Dems.

The GOP has calculated that it doesn't matter whether they pass anything, the public is pissed off and according to polling the anger crosses politica ideologies. McCain has found a perfect populist item and with the help of these GOP savetures decided to put country last and reach for a hail mary pass.

I also said it yesterday, they are going to leave the Dems holding the bag, they are going to pin this as the DEM-BUSH proposal and the general populas is stupid enought to fall for it. They are damned if they do and damnd if they don't.

 

[CharlieDigital]

Way too many assumptions. I understand your view and that you are calling them as you see them. Yet, as you admit, you haven't seen everything. One sentence you argue that republicans are not fiscal conservatives because there plan hasn't been free market. The next sentence is an assumption about how the free market couldn't possibly work. You are too busy taking shots to realize what you are shooting at.

First, the current market is not a free market. The free market has never been tested. We might not have been in this situation if there was a more free market. There wouldn't have even been a freddie and fannie in a totally free market. It could be argued that part of the sub prime crisis would have been avoided with less regulation. I am not against regulation, but we must be careful

Like I said, fuck the theories, fuck the terminology. Fuck this stupid free market bullshit -- I'm sick and tired of listening to how great the free market is when it's a stupid theory that doesn't work. There is no such thing as a truly unregulated market in any system anywhere in the world. There's not a single first world country in the world that has a truly free market. You know why? Go think about that.

Look, stop with the bullshit. Are you under 30? If you are, you've lived through two presidencies where you could probably make heads or tails out of the issues. Tell me, under which presidency was the country more prosperous? Under which presidency were we more peaceful?

Forget the politics of old. Forget everything the Republican party wants to feed you about how they're "conservatives". Judge by the results you've been able to see for yourself. Fuuuuuck. Seriously, can you not judge the results of the last 16 years for yourself and see which ideology has lead the nation to prosper and which has lead it to the brink of financial failure?

Are you really that blind to the actual results?

The republicans or neocons are not fiscal conservatives. Bush and Clinton were not fiscal conservatives. The only thing you have proof of is that neoconseravtives haven't worked.

Okay, well, did McCain vote with Bush 90% of the time of did he not? Did he, or did he not?

 

[thefit]

Because we already tried it in the 19th Century. It didn't work out so well.

Didn't work in Japan either, it took them more than 10 years to admit they had a problem.

 

[Incognito]

Ok. I just seem to be continually underestimating how unpopular the bail out is. I didn't realize it was that risky to be supporting it without Republican support.

It's not just that; it's the fact that this problems stem from the Republican philosophy of deregulation and unfettered capitalism. The Democrats don't want to be punished for cleaning up the Republican's mess as the GOP jumps aboard the populist bandwagon.

 

[Hitokage]

Didn't work in Japan either, it took them more than 10 years to admit they had a problem.

Speaking of which, whenever other countries like Russia went through this crap, we'd always force "FREE MARKET!" down their throats no matter how crappy it made things for them. Well, at least now we have Putin around for gaffers to admire!

 

[GenericPseudonym]

Like I said, fuck the theories, fuck the terminology. Fuck this stupid free market bullshit -- I'm sick and tired of listening to how great the free market is when it's a stupid theory that doesn't work. There is no such thing as a truly unregulated market in any system anywhere in the world. There's not a single first world country in the world that has a truly free market. You know why? Go think about that.

Look, stop with the bullshit. Are you under 30? If you are, you've lived through two presidencies where you could probably make heads or tails out of the issues. Tell me, under which presidency was the country more prosperous? Under which presidency were we more peaceful?

Forget the politics of old. Forget everything the Republican party wants to feed you about how they're "conservatives". Judge by the results you've been able to see for yourself. Fuuuuuck. Seriously, can you not judge the results of the last 16 years for yourself and see which ideology has lead the nation to prosper and which has lead it to the brink of financial failure?
Are you really that blind to the actual results?

Not to disrupt your meltdown but many of the bad choices regarding deregulation ocurred during the Clinton presidency and both administrations were lead by Greenspan's monetary policy.

 

[Chiggs]

Forget everything the Republican party wants to feed you about how they're "conservatives". Judge by the results you've been able to see for yourself. Fuuuuuck. Seriously, can you not judge the results of the last 16 years for yourself and see which ideology has lead the nation to prosper and which has lead it to the brink of financial failure?

I'm really too tired to argue partisan points, but lets summarize:

1. You can't blame this all on George Bush.
2. Clinton was a good President, but to say that the he was solely responsible for the prosperity during his term is incorrect.
3. I think you're towing the party line in the face of an economic reality that is far more complex than: GEORGE BUSH SUX!@!@!

Not to disrupt your meltdown but many of the bad choices regarding deregulation ocurred during the Clinton presidency and both administrations were lead by Greenspan's monetary policy.

Exactly. You could also shift some of the Enron blame to Clinton, as well.

 

[Mandark]

Speaking of which, whenever other countries like Russia went through this crap, we'd always force "FREE MARKET!" down their throats no matter how crappy it made things for them. Well, at least now we have Putin around for gaffers to admire!

True that. Shock therapy capitalism, which had the full support of the neoliberal opinion elite in the US, is a horrible thing to go through.

If you're not willing to take the medicine yourself, don't recommend it to others.

 

[CharlieDigital]

Not to disrupt your meltdown but many of the bad choices regarding deregulation ocurred during the Clinton presidency and both administrations were lead by Greenspan's monetary policy.

Exactly. You could also shift some of the Enron blame to Clinton, as well.

The repeal of Glass-Steagall was introduced by none other than Phil Gramm (REF) and after passing both houses of Congress, it was essentially veto proof. Clinton could not veto it even if he wanted to and he's on record as saying he was against it.

Greenspan is a self professed "libertarian republican" (REF).

WHAT NOW?

 

[MaddenNFL64]

Is there anything from the House repub caucus plan that could be SAFELY adopted into the Paulson plan? There has to be some compromise.

 

[Mandark]

Not to disrupt your meltdown but many of the bad choices regarding deregulation ocurred during the Clinton presidency and both administrations were lead by Greenspan's monetary policy.

Us OG liberals already have beefs with Greenspan, Robert Rubin, Larry Summers, and a raft of the Clinton administration's regulatory policies.

 

[Chiggs]

WHAT NOW?

You're trying to blame all of this on Republicans and that is just a crock of shit. As if it were that simple.

 

[Hitokage]

True that. Shock therapy capitalism, which had the full support of the neoliberal opinion elite in the US, is a horrible thing to go through.

If you're not willing to take the medicine yourself, don't recommend it to others.

Now now, here we are acknowledging the experience, nay, existence of other countries. I'm not sure all of this is an acceptable topic for discussion.

 

[CharlieDigital]

You're trying to blame all of this on Republicans and that is just a crock of shit. As if it were that simple.

Gimme specifics then. I've been presented with "Clinton deregulated!" FALSE; he had no choice but to sign the repeal of Glass-Steagall.

"Greenspan!" FALSE; he is a self professed "libertarian republican".

Tell me, give me some specifics, who is to blame then?

 

[The Chosen One]

pretty much the case. The house republicans are being idiots and McCain isnt doing much about it/ kinda sorta not really backing them.

I bet Bush is pissed off at McCain. Bush is in full-on protect legacy mode. He needs the bill to pass ASAP so the economy doesn't completely crash on his watch. He almost got the deal passed then McCain comes along and makes things even more messy.

I'm sure Bush doesn't mind McCain bashing him far away on the campaign trail in order to get elected. But now McCain is all up in his shit giving cover to renegade Republicans and throwing his deal sideways.

I think initially they were happy to have McCain come because they thought he would push the house Republicans to support the bail out. But now I'm willing to guess that you'll soon see some unflattering leaks about John McCain from the White House pretty soon. Especially if it doesn't pass tomorrow.

And I don't see how it can pass tomorrow considering how late they're starting.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

Gimme specifics then. I've been presented with "Clinton deregulated!" FALSE; he had no choice but to sign the repeal of Glass-Steagall.

"Greenspan!" FALSE; he is a self professed "libertarian republican".

Tell me, give me some specifics, who is to blame then?

The Free Market for not sitting still as we jammed coconuts up it's butt?

 

[StoOgE]

Fun fact: Alan Greenspan used to play badmitton with Ayn Rand. He was a hardcore objectivist back before he became fed chair.

He got kicked out of the objectivist society, badmitton and all.

 

[Hitokage]

By the way, I'm seriously not sure how to react to what's happened in the past few days. It's like seeing a car accident happen right in front of you.

 

[StoOgE]

By the way, I'm seriously not sure how to react to what's happened in the past few days. It's like seeing a car accident happen right in front of you.

I chose to freak out. Its fun.

 

[soul creator]

True that. Shock therapy capitalism, which had the full support of the neoliberal opinion elite in the US, is a horrible thing to go through.

If you're not willing to take the medicine yourself, don't recommend it to others.

naomi klein <3 <3

 

[CharlieDigital]

All I can go by are the results.

Theory is fun and everything, but in the end, only results matter.

I've been alive for 27 years. I've followed politics for two presidencies. I've seen the measured differences myself in every aspect from the economy to civil liberties to international relations; I've seen what those with the (R) label are capable of when they've been in control and I've seen what those with the (D) label are capable of and I much prefer those with a (D) label based purely on results. I've seen the candidates that those with the (R) label have trotted forward as their top guns and I've seen the candidates that those with a (D) label have trotted forward as the cream of the crop. I've seen the actions and the results of these two parties unfold in real time.

Forget the theories. Forget the philosophy.

I chose to freak out. Its fun.

SAME HERE!1!! WHARRGARBL!!11

 

[Thunder Monkey]

By the way, I'm seriously not sure how to react to what's happened in the past few days. It's like seeing a car accident happen right in front of you.

Except in slow motion with 300 million lives at stake.

 

[MaddenNFL64]

Only one reaction to have.

Yell "Holy shit!", park on the side of the road, and check out the carnage.

 

[Hitokage]

Strangely enough though, I actually once saw three happen directly in front of me in the span of a month or two.

 

[thefit]

Speaking of which, whenever other countries like Russia went through this crap, we'd always force "FREE MARKET!" down their throats no matter how crappy it made things for them. Well, at least now we have Putin around for gaffers to admire!

Our first test was Chile with the Pinochet regime, at it went on from their, El Salvador, Mexico, Iran etc. take a hard look at regimes that are closely knit with these jokers in the past and present they are all following the same school of thought. People don't realize that the same school of thought that breed the Chicago Friedmanites and neocons in our country also breed the leaders from other countries, its why they insist on "Globalization" all around the world, they all studied the same warped ideas and took them back home, just look the Georgian president for evidence, what happened there was no accident. This is no dreamland, there are some very sick people in this country that are trying to implement there world agenda. Its time to stop this "tin hat" disregarding of some really ugly truths. Wake up.

Kissinger, Bush, Cheney, Rummy, Negroponte, Wolfowitz. These bastards where pulling the strings starting in '47 and they have not relented. They could have been stopped at Iran Contra.

Your seeing the end result of almost 30 years of a failed philosophy, it didn't work in any of the countries where it was force fed to them and it didn't work here.

 

[Huzah]

God damn house republicans, and McCain, these populist folks that support them think "financial system" only encompasses depositing and withdrawing money from their ATMs. I bet none of them even heard of something called LIBOR or TED spread or what impact the credit freeze is having on the REAL economy as every day passes as they grandstand for their political sideshow.

 

[Ela Hadrun]

The Free Market for not sitting still as we jammed coconuts up it's butt?

(neutral) Thunder Monkey
FIGS IN MY RECTUM
(Today, 05:57 AM)
Reply | Quote

Srsly?

 

[Chiggs]

Gimme specifics then. I've been presented with "Clinton deregulated!" FALSE; he had no choice but to sign the repeal of Glass-Steagall.

The Clinton Administration was hand-in-hand with the Republicans during the creation of the Financial Services Modernization Act. Don't kid yourself. Blaming one side is such a joke. One steals with the left, the other with the right.

I'm actually just feeling sick about this whole thing and don't even want to argue anymore. Draw a check in the victory column if you want. I don't even care at this point.

 

[Incognito]

Rick Sanchez fans, enjoy!

 

[Hitokage]

Clinton was already beaten into his stance of "triangulation", and with the booming 90s economy it probably didn't seem like such a bad idea at the time. What could have possibly gone wrong?

 

[devilhawk]

Like I said, fuck the theories, fuck the terminology. Fuck this stupid free market bullshit -- I'm sick and tired of listening to how great the free market is when it's a stupid theory that doesn't work. There is no such thing as a truly unregulated market in any system anywhere in the world. There's not a single first world country in the world that has a truly free market. You know why? Go think about that.

Look, stop with the bullshit. Are you under 30? If you are, you've lived through two presidencies where you could probably make heads or tails out of the issues. Tell me, under which presidency was the country more prosperous? Under which presidency were we more peaceful?

Forget the politics of old. Forget everything the Republican party wants to feed you about how they're "conservatives". Judge by the results you've been able to see for yourself. Fuuuuuck. Seriously, can you not judge the results of the last 16 years for yourself and see which ideology has lead the nation to prosper and which has lead it to the brink of financial failure?

Are you really that blind to the actual results?



Okay, well, did McCain vote with Bush 90% of the time of did he not? Did he, or did he not?

It seems like you don't even remember everything about Clinton. It wasn't all roses. The dot-com bubble falls squarely on Clinton. Some even argue the housing bubble was partly caused by the dot-com bubble because real estate was the next speculative market that was best for profits. Hillary FUCKED over health care as chairwoman of the Health reform task force in the 90's. Part of the health care crisis lays squarely with her. You are putting way to much emphasis on the linkage of the economy and the president. It is really ignorant to think it is so simple.

As far as the peaceful part? Clinton wasn't a pacifist by any stretch and used Iraq as a diversion for purely political gain. Bush didn't start this whole terrorism thing. This would have happened no matter who the president was. Iraq is an obvious exception.

Simply saying that the free market is a stupid theory that never works isn't an argument against it. It has never been tested. You need to get out of your head the notion that more regulation will always equal economic boom. It is an important give and take issue where not only the number but the stringency and enforcement of regulation is crucial. Regulation is critical in our society but it can also be detrimental. It is obviously a more complex issue than 99% of Gaffers can grasp, me included.

 

[Extollere]

Wow, watching Representative Kaptur rip a new asshole into Congress really fucking floored me. Why can't we have more people like her in the House and Senate. Wtf... need to vote for Congressional seats I guess.

 

[Hitokage]

Hillary FUCKED over health care as chairwoman of the Health reform task force in the 90's. Part of the health care crisis lays squarely with her. You are putting way to much emphasis on the linkage of the economy and the president. It is really ignorant to think it is so simple.

Hillary didn't get anything done. If that's what you're complaining about then you have people who lied about the specifics of the plan to blame.

 

[Chiggs]

Hillary didn't get anything done. If that's what you're complaining about then you have people who lied about the specifics of the plan to blame.

She certainly enjoyed all of that pay-off money.

 

[Stoney Mason]

lol

My most recent observation is how once a media narrative is set it is so very difficult to dislodge. I think Biden and Mccain show off this dynamic pretty well. When Biden commits a gaffe it's generally portrayed as goofy Joe Biden. When Mccain commits one they are often termed straight talk or just a mistake.

 

[soul creator]

Rick Sanchez fans, enjoy!

:lol

 

[Thunder Monkey]

(neutral) Thunder Monkey
FIGS IN MY RECTUM
(Today, 05:57 AM)
Reply | Quote

Srsly?

How comfortable would you be with Greenspan, Paulson, and Bernanke shoving coconuts up your ass?

It'd be both painful and I'd flood them with money just to get them to stop.

Figs are one thing. They fit in an asshole and they feed colon hamsters pretty well, a coconut will just kill your furry friendly colonbuddy.

 

[Gary Whitta]

Rick Sanchez fans, enjoy!

How is this chump still on the air? I can only imagine the mail CNN gets about him.

 

[SpeedingUptoStop]

Just caught up again on the thread.





No seriously, if McCain wins after all this, I'll lose my fucking mind.

 

[Fragamemnon]

More Missouri Madness

http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/ne...3368120E9B53BDC1862574D0000D8EF4?OpenDocument

Missouri :

R2K, this week, 800 LV:

McCain 47
Obama 46

It's sooo nice to see this bellwether state swing back into contention after McCain and Palin really tried to put it away right after the convention with multiple stops there.

 

[CharlieDigital]

It seems like you don't even remember everything about Clinton. It wasn't all roses. The dot-com bubble falls squarely on Clinton. Some even argue the housing bubble was partly caused by the dot-com bubble because real estate was the next speculative market that was best for profits.

I'll take the dotcom bubble over anything we're going through now, wouldn't you? No market is perfect; every market will have its ups and downs. We recovered gracefully from the dotcom bubble (not nearly as bad as some would have you believe) and we are squarely in the age of the Internet, Web 2.0, and Web 3.0 even. I ask you, seriously: what bubble? Compared to the mess we're in? That was nothing; I'll trade for it any day.

As far as the peaceful part? Clinton wasn't a pacifist by any stretch and used Iraq as a diversion for purely political gain. Bush didn't start this whole terrorism thing. This would have happened no matter who the president was. Iraq is an obvious exception.

Right, go ahead and make an exception. Yeah, that makes any argument easy to win if you can take a mulligan on any point you want to contend. Don't make me laugh; it's pathetic. Like it or not, Bush got us into Iraq, which will go down as a huge blunder and general clusterfuck.

Simply saying that the free market is a stupid theory that never works isn't an argument against it. It has never been tested. You need to get out of your head the notion that more regulation will always equal economic boom.

It's not about "economic boom". It's about safe, stable growth; that's what you free-marketers don't get. This is what proper regulation applies to an economy. An "economic boom" is exactly what we don't want. Do you get it now? Regulation is not about causing growth; it's about controlling growth and making sure that it's not unchecked and uncontrolled. In biological terms, we would call an "economic boom" a cancerous tumor.

The "Government as OS" is the best way to approach it. As Rosenfelder writes:

Government as OS

When the US was founded, people had the curious idea that the government was simply all of us. The founders called it 'democracy', or government by the people. If we still believed this, we might have no problem with things like government support for the old or for poor children. Why shouldn't we all chip in a little so that no one in this prosperous country needs to go hungry or live in shacks?

I won't attempt to revive this antique concept; instead, I'd like to suggest that government plays the same role in an economy as an operating system plays in a computer. It sets up the basic conditions for other agents to do their work, provides the basic services, and prevents resource gridlock and system crashes.

A good operating system makes it easy for programmers to write programs: they can use system services rather than doing everything themselves; they spend their time accomplishing something for the user rather than fighting the computer (or other programs).

Likewise, a good government makes it easy for businesses and individuals to prosper. It provides services that benefit everybody, resolves disputes, and keeps the system running fairly.

Ayn Rand is wrong: individuals don't prosper all by themselves. They owe their success to the other people that help them, and to the government that provides them with opportunities, reduces risks, and provides public goods. Evidently ours does a good enough job that Americans think that these things come free, like the air.

http://zompist.com/gummint.html

The free market is a myth.