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[Drinky Crow]

Haha, ok?

Oh, and if the plan is so great, what do the dems have to worry about? If they are worried about their political careers, maybe just maybe it isn't necessarily the best plan and they recognize this. There is nothing truly stopping this from the floor.

what's stopping them is rabid kneejerk opinion of their constituents, who overwhelmingly do not want a bailout because they see it as a denial of retribution for the profligate (and often entirely assumed) debt spending of their neighbors. apparently, a lot of folks are really caught up in pretending to be bootstrappers, and are gleefully and vindictively pointing their fingers at some mythical "neighbor" who debt-spent their way into fancy homes and cars at the expense of "everyone else". it's a horribly self-contradictory meme, and tragically petty to boot, but it's really caught on. i supppose it's easier to blame the guy with the bigger house ('cuz you always KNEW he wasn't actually better than you!) on the block than the corrupt fund managers and brokers and investors on wall street, or alan motherfucking greenspan and his itinerant anti-regulatory pen. besides, it's american to believe in the free market -- after all, it has "free" right there in the name!

man, envy is a sad thing

 

[lopaz]

what's stopping them is rabid kneejerk opinion of their constituents, who overwhelmingly do not want a bailout because they see it as a denial of retribution for the profligate (and often entirely assumed) debt spending of their neighbors. apparently, a lot of folks are really caught up in pretending to be bootstrappers, and are gleefully and vindictively pointing their fingers at some mythical "neighbor" who debt-spent their way into fancy homes and cars at the expense of "everyone else". it's a horribly self-contradictory meme, and tragically petty to boot, but it's really caught on. i supppose it's easier to blame the guy with the bigger house ('cuz you always KNEW he wasn't actually better than you!) on the block than the corrupt fund managers and brokers and investors on wall street, or alan motherfucking greenspan and his itinerant anti-regulatory pen. besides, it's american to believe in the free market -- after all, it has "free" right there in the name!

man, envy is a sad thing

Are your neighbours being mean to you?

 

[Drinky Crow]

my neighbors are nice democrats with a good savings and little-to-no debt, like me

they could stand to offer to babysit more often, though

 

[Hitokage]

my neighbors are nice democrats with a good savings and little-to-no debt, like me

they could stand to offer to babysit more often, though

Obviously you should have considered the babysitting willingness of your community when selecting a residence, or maybe you just aren't offering enough money. If the demand is truly there, the free market will provide it!

 

[devilhawk]

Are your neighbours being mean to you?

Or pissed in his rose bushes or something

For the record, I live in a suburb where there are people who have huge houses with no furnishings. Am I laughing at people whose houses are foreclosing because they have double mortgaged them? Hell no, but it doesn't mean I should be required to bail them all out.

Can't I just babysit for them instead?

 

[Thunder Monkey]

my neighbors are nice democrats with a good savings and little-to-no debt, like me

they could stand to offer to babysit more often, though

Why is your two legged kitty always stuck in the gray box next to your post?

He looks so sad...

Damn Democrat party. Always trying to keep the little guy down.

 

[Drinky Crow]

i will say this: if local talk-radio chatter is anything to go on, it's both democrat AND republican constituents that are lining up to spew bile about the folks up the street and their credit card problems. awesome: bipartisan ignorance!

it's okay to be angry about people gettin' shit with money they didn't earn. but in this case, overwhelmingly demanding retribution against the folks with the bad mortgages and massive debt is a bit like blaming grandma when she gets defrauded -- sure, she's senile and stupid, but let's predominantly cast the blame on the guy with the greasy hair and the flashing smile who sold her the bad bill of goods, and to a lesser extent, the nurse that held the door open.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

i will say this: if local talk-radio chatter is anything to go on, it's both democrat AND republican constituents that are lining up to spew bile about the folks up the street and their credit card problems. awesome: bipartisan ignorance!

it's okay to be angry about people gettin' shit with money they didn't earn. but in this case, overwhelmingly demanding retribution against the folks with the bad mortgages and massive debt is a bit like blaming grandma when she gets defrauded -- sure, she's senile and stupid, but let's predominantly cast the blame on the guy with the greasy hair and the flashing smile who sold her the bad bill of goods, and to a lesser extent,

You've opened up a new world to me. O_O

the nurse that held the door open.

Go on?

 

[besada]

Rick Sanchez fans, enjoy!

Blood squirted out of my eye.

 

[Drinky Crow]

Or pissed in his rose bushes or something

For the record, I live in a suburb where there are people who have huge houses with no furnishings. Am I laughing at people whose houses are foreclosing because they have double mortgaged them? Hell no, but it doesn't mean I should be required to bail them all out.

Can't I just babysit for them instead?

you aren't bailing them out -- they still hafta pay. (or were you hoping to see them frogmarched off their property and into debtor's prison?) on the OTHER hand, you ARE bailing your OWN ASS out by saving the dollar from a hilariously stagflated future, where your precious hard-earned dollars are worth less than individual yen, and where you probably won't have a job to add to the growing pile of green toilet paper. talk like a chipper bootstrapper all you like, but when you're thick in the misery of a proper depression, you'll be begging for an fdr-styled santa claus to bail you out, just as america overwhelmingly did the last time it happened.

 

[speculawyer]

Before the meeting broke up, Mr Bush issued a warning about the dire consequences if the Bill did not pass. "If money isn't loosened up, this sucker could go down," the President said, according one report.

:lol

 

[Thunder Monkey]

:lol

Such a seasoned wordsmith.

That's our Bush!

 

[Fragamemnon]

on the OTHER hand, you ARE bailing your OWN ASS out by saving the dollar from a hilariously stagflated future, where your precious hard-earned dollars are worth less than individual yen

Not just that, but there's a good point to be made about the effect of foreclosures on the overall housing market-if you are in your own home now, you WANT less foreclosures as it keeps your own home value up and keeps houses occupied. Vacant homes and neighborhoods with a lot of them are bad, bad news, unless you are a copper thief or a squatter.

 

[besada]

I've been thinking that copper rustling might be the best idea for a new career.

 

[Drinky Crow]

if i actually didn't give a fuck about the folks i share my community and state with, i'd be all for a complete collapse and the inevitable rise of fdr-brand democratic socialism. unfortunately, i have zero desire to see the folks i like and respect suffer for my long-term political ideals, and i suppose my dream of seeing the free market faithful hoist upon the crux of their own awful design is just something i'll hafta quietly touch myself to on those nights when mrs. drinky gets a little too tired of my poop jokes.

:bow new deal :bow2

iss delusional self-titled bootstrappers iss2

 

[MaddenNFL64]

So, what's the gist of the house repubs plan?

I got so far, some sort of cuts in capital gains & corporate taxes. Heard somewhere it was a 2 year moratorium on corporate taxes, but that can't be right.

Also they would insure these mortgage backed securities, credit default swaps, whatever other dumb, complex bullshit these assholes trade to eachother by 20-40%.

And last, deregulate in a certain area to free up foreign capital. I heard some imaginary 1 trillion dollars is "held up".

I saw a 350 billion dollar figure for all this. I wonder if that includes the tax loss.

This is unresearched hearsay from me.

 

[Drinky Crow]

they tried to sneak a repeal of the capital gains tax in. it's a complete and total economic non-sequitur. i blame the ghost of ron paul.

edit: it's not a repeal, it's a two-year moratorium. my bad. still, my point stands.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

they tried to sneak a repeal of the capital gains tax in. it's a complete and total economic non-sequitur. i blame the ghost of ron paul.

Ron Paul died?

Or just his political ambitions?

 

[Drinky Crow]

i absolutely refuse to explain my gags

 

[KTallguy]

this is depressing.

 

[Timedog]

the nurse that held the door open.

ohhhhhhhh shiiiiiiiiiiiiii

drinky's on a roll!

 

[Thunder Monkey]

i absolutely refuse to explain my gags

Part of my gag is acting like a dimwitted monkey.

Hard to gag a gagger.

 

[mAcOdIn]

Hard to gag a gagger.

That a challenge?

Spoiler

pervert

 

[Fragamemnon]

So, what's the gist of the house repubs plan?

I got so far, some sort of cuts in capital gains & corporate taxes. Heard somewhere it was a 2 year moratorium on corporate taxes, but that can't be right.

It's a two year moratorium on the capital gains tax. Their idea is to encourage assetholders to sell unwanted assets and introduce more liquidity in the system with the proceeds. It fails the sniff test, though-it does nothing to help the issue of the huge underwater mortgage securities-if anything, it would make them even more worthless because they couldn't use them as a write-down to offset capital gains taxes incurred when selling off other assets.

And it's not like the mortgage securities themselves would be even be subject to capital gains taxes, as no one is making money off of them.

Also they would insure these mortgage backed securities, credit default swaps, whatever other dumb, complex bullshit these assholes trade to eachother by 20-40%.

This is unresearched hearsay from me.

extending mortgage insurance to a couple of trillion dollars of private subprime mortages just transferrers the risk on the taxpayer. At best, we only get a fraction of the bailout money returned to us via premiums. At worst, and quite more likely given the degree of the housing market collapse, the taxpayers are left holding the bag completely on the mortgages, and the cost overruns are astronomical due to insurance payouts.

The GOP plan is a really bad one.

 

[Thunder Monkey]

That a challenge?

Spoiler

pervert

Not so much a challenge... as a warning.

*removes pants*

 

[mAcOdIn]

Not so much a challenge... as a warning.

*removes pants*

Before that, I just have to ask, have you seen any sailors?

 

[Huzah]

I think the term stagflation is becoming a new buzzword, so let's please try to use it correctly? Stagflation is increased inflation with minimal or slow growth like America during the 70s. What happened to Japan was straight up deflation with stagnant growth. What occured during the great depression was MASSIVE deflation with MASSIVE degrowth. FYI, the Japan outcome is what happened AFTER severe intervention and very generous accounting standards ( so bad way to do a bailout). The great depression outcome is what happens when you combine the free market with ungenerous monetary policy.

 

[Huzah]

extending mortgage insurance to a couple of trillion dollars of private subprime mortages just transferrers the risk on the taxpayer. At best, we only get a fraction of the bailout money returned to us via premiums. At worst, and quite more likely given the degree of the housing market collapse, the taxpayers are left holding the bag completely on the mortgages, and the cost overruns are astronomical due to insurance payouts.

The GOP plan is a really bad one.

Insuring the assets is basically buying the assets at par value unless they think they can charge accurate risk based insurance rates (haha if they could they wouldn't be slumming it as a house of rep) in which case it's just a roundabout way of buying the assets at some marked down value, which is the current plan.

 

[syllogism]

"Former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee said Sen. John McCain made a “huge mistake” by even discussing canceling the presidential debate with Sen. Barack Obama…"

Huckabee has been sooo in the tank for a while now

 

[Fragamemnon]

Insuring the assets is basically buying the assets at par value unless they think they can charge accurate risk based insurance rates (haha if they could they wouldn't be slumming it as a house of rep) in which case it's just a roundabout way of buying the assets at some marked down value, which is the current plan.

I'm no economist-but wouldn't buying the assets at a marked down value not really help things? Currently unknown/undetermined losses are realized and the attempt to increase actual working capital fails, potentially crunching the company even more. I would think that the current plan would be more along the lines of buying at a higher values and covering the taxpayer risk via equity warrants should we overpay be a much better solution (and indeed was the one that was being tossed around until dumbasses like Cantor went nuts).

 

[Fragamemnon]

Huckabee has been sooo in the tank for a while now

Huck knows that if McCain loses and Palin is exposed for the brainless fake that she is, he's in a good position to run a strong values voter primary in 2012. He doesn't have to worry about throwing McCain under the bus because he knows that his future base doesn't mind one bit-they don't really like McCain anyway.

 

[avatar299]

Because we already tried it in the 19th Century up to the early 20th Century. It didn't work out so well.

Mercantilism isn't a free market

Insuring the assets is basically buying the assets at par value unless they think they can charge accurate risk based insurance rates (haha if they could they wouldn't be slumming it as a house of rep) in which case it's just a roundabout way of buying the assets at some marked down value, which is the current plan.

Is their anyway we can find the real value, or at least have a more accurate guess at it.

 

[Synth_floyd]

There is a way to find out the value of these assets. Sell them. Whatever you sell them for is what they are worth. Unfortunately, nobody can sell them, which means they are worth NOTHING.

 

[Fragamemnon]

Is their anyway we can find the real value, or at least have a more accurate guess at it.

The problem is that there's no one out there really interested in buying this stuff to begin with. It'd be like auctioning a bunch of copies of Madden 2002 on eBay to determine their real market worth-we'd end up with a lot of expired auctions due to no one interested in buying them.

There is a way to find out the value of these assets. Sell them. Whatever you sell them for is what they are worth. Unfortunately, nobody can sell them, which means they are worth NOTHING.

No, it means that they are illiquid. Once the credit markets get moving and housing stabilizes this paper should be marketable and worth something to investors.

 

[Mr.Squirrel]

I'm not big on economics but could someone answer some basic questions for me?

1) Where are we getting the 700B from? I'm guessing we don't just have over half a trillion dollars sitting around.
2) If the Fed doesn't already have the money on hand now to write this check, are they just gonna print the money out of thin air?
3) What taxes will be raised to get the 700B? Gas? Food? Video games? Hentai?
4) Is the world really gonna explode if we don't bail them out, or is this just more scare tactics?

EDIT: Forgot to ask the most important question

5) Is anyone going to prison for this? Are their assets being seized? If you're responsible for potentially bringing on the 2nd depression and costing the american people 700B, then someone should be getting ass fucked in prison because of it

 

[The Chosen One]

"Former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee said Sen. John McCain made a “huge mistake” by even discussing canceling the presidential debate with Sen. Barack Obama…"

Huckabee has been sooo in the tank for a while now

Don't shoot me, but I could see myself voting for Huckabee. I don't agree with some of his social views, but he seems more open-minded on foreign policy, education, and heathcare, he seems sensible overall, he oozes with charisma, and it doesn't feel like he hates me. He's basically the Republican version of Obama.

Sure he said some nutty things in the Republican primary but that's because it was the Republican primary. He hadn't tap-danced to the center yet. Of course I would like to see who he surrounds himself with once he became a frontrunner Republican. I thought McCain was a good guy 6-7 years ago before he sold his soul, so you never know.

My Top Republican contenders for 2012 are:
1. Mittens
2. Jeb Bush
3. Huckabee

Palin is toast. She's one embarrassing VP debate away from being Quayle 2.0. It's funny how just two weeks ago she was the rockstar and future of the Republican party. Now I'm hearing some Republicans say, "well at least McCain got two good weeks out of her." She probably could have bounced back from the Gibson interview, but the Couric interview seems to have sealed her fate as a punchline. I just don't see how she can turn it around in the debate and avoid talking gibberish for a full 90 minutes when she struggles with 10-15 minute interviews.

Ironically McCain probably killed her career by plucking her from obscurity before she was ready.

 

[Arde5643]

Don't shoot me, but I could see myself voting for Huckabee. I don't agree with some of his social views, but he seems more open-minded on foreign policy, education, and heathcare, he seems sensible overall, he oozes with charisma, and it doesn't feel like he hates me. He's basically the Republican version of Obama.

A republican version of Obama should be someone with policies that are pragmatic as well (though more right leaning) and not, well, crazy.

Agreed though that Huck's a generally likeable guy - if only his policies aren't that crazy.

 

[Barrett2]

Not just that, but there's a good point to be made about the effect of foreclosures on the overall housing market-if you are in your own home now, you WANT less foreclosures as it keeps your own home value up and keeps houses occupied. Vacant homes and neighborhoods with a lot of them are bad, bad news, unless you are a copper thief or a squatter.

Yeah, this is what really mystifies me. I can understand Americans exercising a little righteous anger at all the greed, but do these people have any idea what would happen if foreclosures continued at their present rate, or even increased? Everyone's home values would sink like a fucking stone.

As much as I loathe the idea of our country digging deeper into the hole, the idea seems much more appealing than standing in a fucking bread line three months from now.

 

[mAcOdIn]

Eh, a depression would give me a good escuse to go backpacking through all kinds of countries. So fuck breadlines, I'ma gonna catch me some snake.

Edit: Aside from skinning a snake, I don't think McCain can be blamed for Palin sucking, I mean, surely she had to appear on TV or radio while running for Governor of Alaska.

 

[besada]

Yeah, this is what really mystifies me. I can understand Americans exercising a little righteous anger at all the greed, but do these people have any idea what would happen if foreclosures continued at their present rate, or even increased?

It's because a huge number of people have no idea what's actually happening. They get their news from the TV and all anyone in the media, including the President are saying is how terrible it would be -- without bothering to explain WHY it would be terrible for Joe and Jane Sixpack.

It all sounds like "fearfearfear $700 Billion fearfearfear save big banks fearfearfear" to people who don't understand what's going on. When the first polls came out about the bailout, nearly a third of people were undecided, and those were just the ones who were admitting that they had no idea what was going on. I'd guess another half of the rest just picked a side that sounded good without understanding what they were signing up for.

When you have a MSM that refuses to ever declare a fact or spend time on a detail, you get a population who doesn't understand the play they're in.

 

[Gifted777]

Don't shoot me, but I could see myself voting for Huckabee. I don't agree with some of his social views, but he seems more open-minded on foreign policy, education, and heathcare, he seems sensible overall, he oozes with charisma, and it doesn't feel like he hates me. He's basically the Republican version of Obama.

Sure he said some nutty things in the Republican primary but that's because it was the Republican primary. He hadn't tap-danced to the center yet. Of course I would like to see who he surrounds himself with once he became a frontrunner Republican. I thought McCain was a good guy 6-7 years ago before he sold his soul, so you never know.

My Top Republican contenders for 2012 are:
1. Mittens
2. Jeb Bush
3. Huckabee

Palin is toast. She's one embarrassing VP debate away from being Quayle 2.0. It's funny how just two weeks ago she was the rockstar and future of the Republican party. Now I'm hearing some Republicans say, "well at least McCain got two good weeks out of her." She probably could have bounced back from the Gibson interview, but the Couric interview seems to have sealed her fate as a punchline. I just don't see how she can turn it around in the debate and avoid talking gibberish for a full 90 minutes when she struggles with 10-15 minute interviews.

Ironically McCain probably killed her career by plucking her from obscurity before she was ready.

No other Bush will ever get elected in this country again...EVER!!

 

[avaya]

I have to say Drinky Crow's last couple of posts have been amazing.

I couldn't agree more.

 

[mAcOdIn]

It's because a huge number of people have no idea what's actually happening. They get their news from the TV and all anyone in the media, including the President are saying is how terrible it would be -- without bothering to explain WHY it would be terrible for Joe and Jane Sixpack.

It all sounds like "fearfearfear $700 Billion fearfearfear save big banks fearfearfear" to people who don't understand what's going on. When the first polls came out about the bailout, nearly a third of people were undecided, and those were just the ones who were admitting that they had no idea what was going on. I'd guess another half of the rest just picked a side that sounded good without understanding what they were signing up for.

When you have a MSM that refuses to ever declare a fact or spend time on a detail, you get a population who doesn't understand the play they're in.

I wonder though. I fall on the other side of the fence on beliefs here, but honestly this is confusing stuff here, I doubt that anyone could properly explain things to the general public in a way in which they could understand.

Just looking at the difference when watching each respective news networks coverage over who's fault it is gives highly differing views. Depending on which network you watch completely dictates what the problem is, and of course it's much the same if you were to listen to the administration itself too.

That said, it's probably a great thing that the public hasn't freaked out.

 

[Amir0x]

“I understand that there is a lot of attention on this but I also wish Sen. Obama had agreed to 10 or more town hall meetings that I had asked him to attend with me,” McCain said. “Wouldn’t be quite that much urgency if he agreed to do that. Instead, he refused to do it.”

FURY FURY FURY FURY FURY FURY FURY FURY FURY FURY FURY

 

[Barrett2]

Great article from Washington Post explaining why rejecting the bailout plan
is basically suicide for America.

LINK

You can try to prevent a financial meltdown or you can teach Wall Street a lesson, but you can't do both at the same time.

So which will it be?

 

[Vestal]

Scarbs is on cue today about Palin..

Should we start a Palin resignation watch?

 

[avatar299]

1) Where are we getting the 700B from? I'm guessing we don't just have over half a trillion dollars sitting around.

I honestly think Paulson picked the number becuase it's big.

2) If the Fed doesn't already have the money on hand now to write this check, are they just gonna print the money out of thin air?

Pretty much

3) What taxes will be raised to get the 700B? Gas? Food? Video games? Hentai?

Safe bet everything will see an increase, but It will be really noticeable in income taxes.

What is more interesting is how will the budgets be shaped. What proposals will McCain, and especially obama drop.

4) Is the world really gonna explode if we don't bail them out, or is this just more scare tactics?

The world, no imo.

Depends on how we get rid of the bad banks. If we just bail them out, than yes but i beleive if we see more wamu's, more merril lynch's, etc than this recession won't become a pre-destined global depression.

5) Is anyone going to prison for this? Are their assets being seized? If you're responsible for potentially bringing on the 2nd depression and costing the american people 700B, then someone should be getting ass fucked in prison because of it

Based on what crime?

It's because a huge number of people have no idea what's actually happening. They get their news from the TV and all anyone in the media, including the President are saying is how terrible it would be -- without bothering to explain WHY it would be terrible for Joe and Jane Sixpack.

It all sounds like "fearfearfear $700 Billion fearfearfear save big banks fearfearfear" to people who don't understand what's going on. When the first polls came out about the bailout, nearly a third of people were undecided, and those were just the ones who were admitting that they had no idea what was going on. I'd guess another half of the rest just picked a side that sounded good without understanding what they were signing up for.

When you have a MSM that refuses to ever declare a fact or spend time on a detail, you get a population who doesn't understand the play they're in.

People really need to switch off cnn, msnbc and fox and start watching bloomberg and the like.

 

[Barrett2]

Scarbs is on cue today about Palin..

Should we start a Palin resignation watch?

You know, at this point anything goes. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if they kicked that bitch to the curb and someone else swooped in to save the day for the McCain ticket.

 

[Huzah]

I'm no economist-but wouldn't buying the assets at a marked down value not really help things? Currently unknown/undetermined losses are realized and the attempt to increase actual working capital fails, potentially crunching the company even more. I would think that the current plan would be more along the lines of buying at a higher values and covering the taxpayer risk via equity warrants should we overpay be a much better solution (and indeed was the one that was being tossed around until dumbasses like Cantor went nuts).

Well obviously if they pay the value of what the current market is offering which is close to zero, then it doesn't help the bank much, although this could provide a more liquid market and eliminate the liquidity risk and allow the market price to rise. Or they could try to pay close to the hold to maturity price using discounts of a implied 50% defaults with another 50% loss in homevalue which is still well above the market value of these assets, a reason why banks don't want to sell them atm. Honestly there hasn't been anything concrete from Bernanke and Paulson on this front besides them stating they want to attack the problem through pricing out the liquidity risks as well as trying to discover the true hold to maturity value, I'm sure something creative will be used, Bernanke has been good at this recently with his Fed reserve actions.

I think the equity clawback is a good way to prevent banks from taking advantage of the system and protects tax payers more, but it does hinder future private capital injections and may prevent normally healthy banks from participating so there are downsides.

 

[The Chosen One]

Wow Morning Joe is being brutal to Palin. :lol

I was wondering how much play the Palin interview would get considering all the other things that are going on, but the media is still jumping on it.

Today Joe Scarbs is in full on objective analyst mode. Yesterday he was saying how patriotic McCain was for suspending his campaign. But now he's being more upfront on McCain's intentions and saying how he's possibly causing havoc (duh). Like I said yesterday, you never know what Scarbs you'll get in a given morning.