No. But you should apologize to her
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
PS5 Pro Technical Seminar with Mark Cerny
- Thread starter cormack12
- Start date
HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
Nintendo's Witch
Member
Fascinating.
MazingerDUDE
Member
So, Cerny completely ignores the elephant in the room.
What about those games with the shitty PSSR implements? What about the gamers who paid $700 and ended up with games that look significantly worse?
And as usual, DF is a complete sell out not asking any of these questions, while all they do in their pro video is nitpicking every little details to get the views LOL.
This is why I absolutely hate the video game journalism.
What about those games with the shitty PSSR implements? What about the gamers who paid $700 and ended up with games that look significantly worse?
And as usual, DF is a complete sell out not asking any of these questions, while all they do in their pro video is nitpicking every little details to get the views LOL.
This is why I absolutely hate the video game journalism.
TheThreadsThatBindUs
Member
Woooooooheee!!!
AMATHYST sounds fookin mint!!!!!
AMATHYST sounds fookin mint!!!!!
diffusionx
Gold Member
Seriously, I hope all the naysayers watch this and get educated.I gotta say that I like the presentation flow and diagrams, coupled with Cerny clear and coherent delivery this seminar is a gem for all devs and enthusiasts.
I like how he explained why they didn't move to RDNA3 and beyoned, and "experts" here wanted Sony to change the entire CPU
RoboFu
One of the green rats
did you age 60 years as your wrote this sentence? lol
SweetTooth
Gold Member
TheThreadsThatBindUs
Member
Why would you expect the maker of the tools to answer a question about the work the tools were used to build?
DF and you should be going after the devs in question for a response on this.
Bojji
Member
Edit: Bad reading.
This was recorded weeks ago so most problematic games weren't even there.
Last edited:
SweetTooth
Gold Member
Cerny has been educating them for years, they are not here to discuss things logically.
"Dude, they should put RDNA100 or its gonna be weak as f*** , dude ..only 45% uplift...where is the disc drive...etc"
Im having a blast on My 5Pro and I can't wait for PS6
Crayon
Member
Is it an elephant? Some games look great, and some are fucked up. Look at the ones that are great if you want to see what it can do. There's not much to say besides some studios are better than others.
Fess
Member
Someone said they were recorded on Oct 30. If that’s true I assume they held on it because they unveiled the collaboration with AMD on ML Amethyst today.
That, or they’re preemptively countering a future tech unveil by Nvidia, Intel, Steam, MS, Nintendo, someone else, by detailing and hyping what they already have out.
Playboi Carti
Member
The crowd doesn't want a console that costs more than 500$, we ain't getting none of that.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
To add. The less than a handful of third party devs whom were/are having issues, also struggled with the much more mature state DLSS when their games first released on PC as well.
Bumblebeetuna
Member
I’m gonna post this here since I don’t see a Pro OT, but I just got a Pro and set it up, is the wobble normal? I have a disc drive installed too but the wobble is strong. I’m using the cheap plastic things that came with it.
So:
- No dual issue
- No NPU
- 45% uplift is indeed an "up to"
- 2.35 GHz is the max clock but games are targeting around PS5 clocks to meet thermal/power constraints
- MLiD was full of shit, as expected
The only thing I think we are missing is the exact process the APU is made on.
- No dual issue
- No NPU
- 45% uplift is indeed an "up to"
- 2.35 GHz is the max clock but games are targeting around PS5 clocks to meet thermal/power constraints
- MLiD was full of shit, as expected
The only thing I think we are missing is the exact process the APU is made on.
ReBurn
Gold Member
I don't know what a WPG is but everyone knows more is better.Guys I think this might be a PR stunt
Bojji
Member
To add. The less than a handful of third party devs whom were/are having issues, also struggled with the much more mature state DLSS when their games first released on PC as well.
What? You mean 1.0? Only few games used it totally.
I'm using DLSS for years and I never saw issues present in some Pro releases.
Last edited:
Watched the full video and it's full of interesting details.
Cerny is really good at explaining.
1) For the GPU they didn't adopt full RDNA3 feature set because it would force developers to have different compilers, patches and executables. They don't want that burden for developers for a mid gen upgrade.
There is no dual issue feature, the 33.5TF was wrong.
Real world performance uplift is about 45% in raster also because of memory bandwidth.
Teraflops per se are a useless non real world figure.
2) Ray tracing architecture is taken from yet to be released AMD tech (RDNA4)
The ray intersection capabilities are essentially doubled compared to PS5 but there's also more work done in hardwares on non-coherent processing with a dedicated scheduler so PS5 Pro is actually particularly better than PS5 when you're calculating intersections with ray from different directions.
3)The machine learning hardware is based on custom modifications SIE designed on the RDNA WGPs and they asked AMD to implement.
The WGP supports 44 new shaders instructions dedicated to execute machine learning operations in takeover mode.
Vector registers inside the WGPs are used to store in-between calculations done by PSSR without constantly accessing system memory.
They're using a tile based system so the image is decomposed in a number of tiles and on each tile PSSR is able to go through all the layers of the network accessing the memory only at the initial fetch and final store.
PSSR in its current form is about SUPER RESOLUTION, it doesn't do frame gen, it doesn't do ray tracing denoise.
These issues have to be addressed with other algorithms.
PSSR was trained also using feedback from selected external developers.
4) Sony is in bed with AMD for future hardware co-development focused both on hardware architectures for ML&AI and CNNs for games.
They've started project Amethist.
In general they think we have hit diminishing returns on traditional rasterizing hardware and the future is about ray tracing, path tracing and machine learning everywhere, the ending goal is a fully fused neural network that can go through all its layers without in between accesses to memory.
Cerny is really good at explaining.
1) For the GPU they didn't adopt full RDNA3 feature set because it would force developers to have different compilers, patches and executables. They don't want that burden for developers for a mid gen upgrade.
There is no dual issue feature, the 33.5TF was wrong.
Real world performance uplift is about 45% in raster also because of memory bandwidth.
Teraflops per se are a useless non real world figure.
2) Ray tracing architecture is taken from yet to be released AMD tech (RDNA4)
The ray intersection capabilities are essentially doubled compared to PS5 but there's also more work done in hardwares on non-coherent processing with a dedicated scheduler so PS5 Pro is actually particularly better than PS5 when you're calculating intersections with ray from different directions.
3)The machine learning hardware is based on custom modifications SIE designed on the RDNA WGPs and they asked AMD to implement.
The WGP supports 44 new shaders instructions dedicated to execute machine learning operations in takeover mode.
Vector registers inside the WGPs are used to store in-between calculations done by PSSR without constantly accessing system memory.
They're using a tile based system so the image is decomposed in a number of tiles and on each tile PSSR is able to go through all the layers of the network accessing the memory only at the initial fetch and final store.
PSSR in its current form is about SUPER RESOLUTION, it doesn't do frame gen, it doesn't do ray tracing denoise.
These issues have to be addressed with other algorithms.
PSSR was trained also using feedback from selected external developers.
4) Sony is in bed with AMD for future hardware co-development focused both on hardware architectures for ML&AI and CNNs for games.
They've started project Amethist.
In general they think we have hit diminishing returns on traditional rasterizing hardware and the future is about ray tracing, path tracing and machine learning everywhere, the ending goal is a fully fused neural network that can go through all its layers without in between accesses to memory.
Last edited:
MazingerDUDE
Member
Doesn't need to name anyone because it's so widespread that the ps5 pro is becoming a laughing stock, and the pro users have to worry more than to get excited when a new pro patch is released.
I thought PSSR supposed to be easy to implement. Isn't that what Cerny said in this video too, but why are there so many games with fucked up results?
SweetTooth
Gold Member
LMAO period
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Silent Hill 2 launched with heavy ghosting and flickering that needed patching.
Alan Wake 2 launched with the same before patching.
The so many games are always the same few titles some people constantly mention.
Silent Hill 2, Alan Wake 2 (which now has been kinda fixed and it's a good update over base PS5), two Ubisoft games the developers admitted they have work to do.
All the dozens games where results are fantastic are being ignored.
BTW Cerny kinda gave away the answer.
PSSR doesn't do ray tracing denoise.
Developers have to tackle the issue before by themselves.
This matches what the COD developer told to DF.
If you give to PSSR an image with reflections looking like a shiny cloud of bright dots you won't get good results as an output.
Last edited:
Bojji
Member
Silent Hill was patched by removing PSSR.
Either implementation of PSSR is more complex than other techniques or it wasn't trained enough still at this point in time. Cerny said in the presentation that they did A LOT of training (and were seeing ridiculous results at first).
I think they weren't ready for the launch with this stuff.
Well you ommitted some of the obvious ones that were contended like:
- Custom ML
- 300TOPs (actual - no NVidia sparsity PR math)
- 67 16bit TFlops (ML extension, not through dual-issue)
- RDNA4 RT extensions (Also need code update to use - so not a BC+ feature)
- 1GB Extra memory
I don't recall which leakers claimed what of the above - but I know people argued about it ad-nauseum post leak.
Last edited:
SweetTooth
Gold Member
Who is the guy that insisted that Sony is simpy sticking with whatever AMD puts out with no customizations?
Well he should listen to what Cerny said at 21 minutes
Well he should listen to what Cerny said at 21 minutes
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
WTF are you even talking about?
I am talking about launching on the PC, both those games had issues with DLSS initially, both the same devs struggling with initially with PSSR and used as a cudgel by retarded warriors to bash the tech. Those 2 games on the PC were since patched and drivers updated to fix said issues.
nVidia now does heavy lifting hardware & software revisions later, I am sure Sony will as well over time when its in all their systems and not just a mid-gen refresh.
![[Sigma]](/data/avatars/m/701/701747.jpg?1726376545){kind=avatar}
The Pweep
Neo Member
I don't know, but if it were me doing this PR stunt, I'd have some big game patches out along side it. If I'm talking 30 min+ and my machine needed a boost in sales I'd have had Silent Hill 2 devs hitting the patch, Helldivers 2, Starwars titles, all the mediocre to bad performers and those big titles not yet pro patched ready to release the moment I started yapping.
But alas, nada. Hot air.
But alas, nada. Hot air.
HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
Shaping up to be a fun machine, some already have target specs in hand, pretty sure that includes very reliable people that are forced to sit on them for awhile
SkyHighTrees
Member
Some comments here have been typed by people with IQ comparable to my avatar.
Folk is Just lost here
Folk is Just lost here
Forsete
Member
He should do audio books.
Topher
Identifies as young
PR stunt? You've never seen Cerny discuss tech before? Probably this just isn't the thread for you.
True, the custom ML discussion was the most impressive part of the talk.
Wolzard
Member
In the end, the PS5 Pro is weaker than I imagined. That's why I'm not surprised by the games shown on it so far.
I think it's a huge waste of Sony's money on this project, but as they said the project started in 2020, I assume they were afraid of the Series X when it was released (just remember that tweet from a Sony engineer doubting that hardware) and allocated budget for a mid-upgrade.
I think it's a huge waste of Sony's money on this project, but as they said the project started in 2020, I assume they were afraid of the Series X when it was released (just remember that tweet from a Sony engineer doubting that hardware) and allocated budget for a mid-upgrade.
Topher
Identifies as young
When is that not the case? My PC GPU isn't running full bore the moment I turn on the computer.
Dr.brain64
Member
Cerny being amazing as always 
Bojji
Member
SH2 had some small ghosting because they used wrong/not optimal preset of DLSS. I don't remember anything about AW2 and DLSS issues.
Crayon
Member
To what degree they made it easy or not, we can't know. What I can say is someone will always find some way to fuck it up.
One hint we have is that guerilla decided to stick with their own upscaler, while ND and Insomniac went with the pssr. F1 used it in some modes and not others. All were good results but this shows that it's not pure flip a switch magic. Few things are.
Either way, I don't see why he should explain what went wrong in some third party studios when the tech clearly works well.
HeisenbergFX4
Gold Member
When the leaders at Xbox got wind of the 16Tfs they felt they didn’t need a pro machine, they felt Sony was doing this machine just to stay with the Series X
This was before the current gen even launched and no one knew of PSSR
The Pweep
Neo Member
It's business, its PR. I own the machine so of course the thread is for me. This should have been talked about a month before launch. And if you are waiting until now, maybe have something of worth (like I don't know, Helldivers 2 update to pro today) to go along the 30 min speech.
It's not RDNA2 based, it's a custom design with mixed stuff.
Ray tracing is RDNA4, some raster parts are from RDNA3 and others have been left as they are on PS5 so RDNA2.
The machine learning stuff is designed by Sony and implemented by AMD.
Microsoft comments are ridiculous given that the base PS5 is enough to surpass their top machine in many games.
Topher
Identifies as young
It is PR for tech nerds, but they don't usually bring out Cerny for promos like you are wanting.
I didn't speculate PS5 Pro APU was RDNA2! Rather RDNA2 based, for backward compatibility reasons. It is highly customised APU for sure. MS comments may have been overly 'optimistic', but I wouldn't call them entirely ridiculous.
Well people on this forum were suggesting it was essentially a safe minimum and that games would see much greater increases in practice.
They are, if their top machine is performing worse than the base model of the competition in a lot of games how can they be taken seriously that they already have a pro console on the market?
It's pure PR bullshit to justify they have missed this train because they can't justify the R&D in dedicated hardware given the expected sales they'd get and their shifted strategy to a multiplatform publisher.
And it's even more ridiculous that in 2020 some people were dreaming that thanks to the full RDNA2 feature set Xbox would be able to have machine learning upscaling because of INT8 support unlike PS5.
Sony is instead bringing machine learning to consoles first.
Last edited: