PS5 Pro update reportedly will upgrade PS3, PS2 and PS1 games using PSSR upscaling
BennyBlanco
aka IMurRIVAL69
MLiD rumor, into the trash it goes
Pasta la Vista
Member
What PS3 games? There's no emulation for that on PS5.
EDIT: ahh of course BS
EDIT: ahh of course BS
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LordOcidax
Member
Oh, is only for the Pro…
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adamsapple
Or is it just one of Phil's balls in my throat?
PS3 games? They gonna put PSSR on the cloud steam window?
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thismeinteil
Member
I wish they'd give the option to remove the dithering. That looks good on a CRT TV, but looks like ass on a modern TV.
4k and better IQ from PSSR and boost from Ps5 pro to 6O fps.
ZehDon
Member
Lol, the PS5 can run PS1 and PS2 games at 8k without breaking a sweat. PSSR doesn't have better IQ than native. PSSR also doesn't have frame interpolation or frame generation, so it won't be boosting their FPS from 30 to 60 on its own. If Sony wanted to, it could implement a bespoke emulator that runs all PS1 and PS2 games at 60FPS, 8k, with improved texture filtering and corrected polygon wobble. Heck, most of that is possible on the PS4. PSSR offers nothing here.
kevboard
Member
that's literally impossible unless they make a native PS3 emulator.
PS3 games run on actual PS3 hardware in their server farms. the only upscaling you could apply to that is on the fly video upscaling, which looks shit and adds latency.
additionally, they can't add the current version of PSSR to any PS1, PS2 or PSP title either, as it's TAA. you can't add TAA to a game that doesn't give you motion vectors.
and then there's the fact that literal 10 year old mobile hardware can play PSP games at native 4k. I played Crisis Core FF7 via PPSSPP on my old Nvidia Shield K1 at 4k connected to my TV through mini HDMI. that's a tablet that uses the Tegra K1, a cut down version of the Tegra X1 inside the Switch. so the Switch could run them at 4k.
so this stinks of bullshit. not 1 aspect of it makes any sense. you'd literally worsen your image quality by using PSSR... if it was possible in the first place, which it isn't.
PS3 games run on actual PS3 hardware in their server farms. the only upscaling you could apply to that is on the fly video upscaling, which looks shit and adds latency.
additionally, they can't add the current version of PSSR to any PS1, PS2 or PSP title either, as it's TAA. you can't add TAA to a game that doesn't give you motion vectors.
and then there's the fact that literal 10 year old mobile hardware can play PSP games at native 4k. I played Crisis Core FF7 via PPSSPP on my old Nvidia Shield K1 at 4k connected to my TV through mini HDMI. that's a tablet that uses the Tegra K1, a cut down version of the Tegra X1 inside the Switch. so the Switch could run them at 4k.
so this stinks of bullshit. not 1 aspect of it makes any sense. you'd literally worsen your image quality by using PSSR... if it was possible in the first place, which it isn't.
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Sebastian1295
Member
It's moore's law is dead trying to stay relevant because he's a pathetic hack who wants people to acknowledge him as he's like 'LOOK AT MEEEEE'. Dudes a bum and a lying clown.
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kevboard
Member
this is a really bad attempt at trying tho lol. like none of this makes sense.
the PS5 Pro could even run PS3 games at native 4k. the GPU side of things isn't the issue, only the CPU would actually be stressed when trying to emulate PS3.
Sebastian1295
Member
Ya it makes literally 0 sense but he's not someone who cares about credibility because he never had any to begin with. Dude is just a clown who performs in an abandoned circus because no one wants to pay to watch his garbage act.
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Even if GPU performance 'was' an issue this still wouldn't make any sense.
PSSR like every other Temporal AA needs motion-vector data and frame history buffers to work from that few PS3 games had, and none of PS2/PS1/PSP - you can't simply reverse engineer that into games - even with an emulator.
Also as everyone else pointed out - why use an inferior tech (anything temporal - yes including DLSS) for AA when you can brute force irregular grid SSAA that would look way better (if they actually cared for IQ that is - so far none of the emulators on consoles bother).
TGO
Hype Train conductor. Works harder than it steams.
While you are correct, the emulator Sony uses renders PS1 games at 1440p and PS2 games at 720p or lower.
There's obviously a reason for this to meet Sony's guildlines on the emulation of those games.
Most emulators that run games at high resolution with enhancements and high frame rates etc, do have things modified or disabled to achieve it and make them look better.
For Sony this isn't acceptable, it gotta be running as intended with the same graphical features and that includes PSX dithering
But PSSR can maintain that with a boosted in resolution without altering anything.
kevboard
Member
just to show how dumb this all would be, here's God of War GoS running at 4800 x 2720 on a 3060ti, a GPU that is less powerful than that of the PS5 Pro
(sound wasn't recorded... no idea why, but I don't wanna redo it lol)
sadly, PPSSPP is maxing out at 10x resolution (that is 10x per axis, so in actuality it's 100x the original pixels/resolution) on top of that, this game doesn't reach 60fps on original hardware, but ran unlocked.
I wonder how high I could push this until the framerate would drop below 60fps. is there a trick to increase resolution beyond this?
now imagine instead of running a PSP game at such a pristine native resolution that is beyond 4K (almost 5k), you'd use temporal upsampling from a lower resolution... disgusting!
and again, remember, I was able to emulate PSP on 10 year old Mobile hardware on close to this level of fidelity...
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Knightime_X
Member
0% chance I'll be buying an $800 console.
get fucked sony.
I'll be waiting for this feature on ps6.
get fucked sony.
I'll be waiting for this feature on ps6.
kevboard
Member
probably because they want them to still look "retro". there's no good reason other than that to do it, other than reduce issues like visible polygon seams.
no they don't. you can do that, like enabling sub pixel calculations for polygons, or proper perspective corrected texture mapping. but you don't have to do that in order to run games at 4K.
on top of that, imagine adding a temporal upscaler to an image that uses dithering in order to blend colors and has constant texture wobble and polygon snapping lol. the amount of artifacts would be insane.
also there's nothing a 4K image would change compared to a 1440p image... 1440p is already an insane increase in resolution for PS1. that's a 36x increase...
they'd also need to modify literally every PS1, PS2 and PSP game to support this. modify in a way that's not viable even remotely. PSSR = TAA. TAA only works if the game has a way for it to hook into its motion vectors and camera... the former of which no PS1, PS2 or PSP game even tracks in the first place.
in short, it's impossible to add PSSR to a game that doesn't already use a form of TAA. even on PS3 only some rare late gen games did that.
it can't...
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kevboard
Member
Killer8
Member
It's not about whether it can render in native 4K, that's easy - it's about what breaks when doing that. Many games have various effects tied in with resolution which diminish or stop working when going above their intended resolution via emulation. See the PCSX2 github discussion for hundreds of examples of this happening.
Metal Gear Solid 2 and 3 are some retail examples which people moaned and moaned about having broken effects in the HD and later Master Collections. PC mods showed that the effects broke down even further at native 4K (which was something else people moaned about the lack of).
For games like that, it can end up being a better compromise to keep a lower base resolution and then upscale it - which is exactly what Konami did in a patch for the Master Collection, rendering in 1080p to at least preserve some of the effects and then using FSR1 to bump it up to 4K.
FSR1 is often chosen, still commonly today, because it is a spatial upscaler ie. can take any lower res image and scale it without needing motion vectors. It's available as a driver level upscaler on Steam Deck, for example.
PSSR could potentially do the same as FSR1 and then apply additional enhancements to it, like RTX Video which works in a similar way:
Microsoft's Auto SR is another which spatially upscales and then enhances the image.
There is already a precedent for enhancements on the PS5 Pro for PS4 games, so I don't see any reason why that couldn't be pushed to other games which need it.
kevboard
Member
It's not about whether it can render in native 4K, that's easy - it's about what breaks when doing that. Many games have various effects tied in with resolution which diminish or stop working when going above their intended resolution via emulation. See the PCSX2 github discussion for hundreds of examples of this happening.
Metal Gear Solid 2 and 3 are some retail examples which people moaned and moaned about having broken effects in the HD and later Master Collections. PC mods showed that the effects broke down even further at native 4K (which was something else people moaned about the lack of).
For games like that, it can end up being a better compromise to keep a lower base resolution and then upscale it - which is exactly what Konami did in a patch for the Master Collection, rendering in 1080p to at least preserve some of the effects and then using FSR1 to bump it up to 4K.
FSR1 is often chosen, still commonly today, because it is a spatial upscaler ie. can take any lower res image and scale it without needing motion vectors. It's available as a driver level upscaler on Steam Deck, for example.
PSSR could potentially do the same as FSR1 and then apply additional enhancements to it, like RTX Video which works in a similar way:
Microsoft's Auto SR is another which spatially upscales and then enhances the image.
There is already a precedent for enhancements on the PS5 Pro for PS4 games, so I don't see any reason why that couldn't be pushed to other games which need it.
Auto SR introduces input lag because it needs multiple frames to work. so you'd add input lag to these games for absolutely no good reason.
Nvidia's video scaler properly also needs multiple frames to properly work.
It's also of note that their video scaler has nothing to do with DLSS. they are completely different technologies. which means if Sony would implement something like it, it's not gonna be related to PSSR.
also, they already run PS1 games at 36 times their original pixel output. I don't think they are concerned about something breaking there.
in fact, adding some ML upscaler to that would probably make games look worse in motion than the pure native image.
as for FSR1 like solutions, I mean... why? barely adds to the image quality, especially if you already run PS1 games at 36x res.
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Killer8
Member
It's not PS1 they are going to be concerned about, it's PS2. Many of the PS2 games they've (*Implicit Conversions) brought to PS5 render at something weird like 576p with a doubling to 800p-ish on the other axis according to Digital Foundry.
It looks like absolute shit, but in games like Tomb Raider Legend which had lighting alignment issues when ran in higher res in PCSX2 (which some of those Implicit Conversions devs worked on), I can see why they made the choice to keep rendering it lower. It's those titles that need an additional push to make acceptable looking on a 4K display.
kevboard
Member
I don't think some ML solution would be preferable to just running 2x native in PS2 games.
due to their low details even a 2x scale on each axis makes them already look pretty decent.
something like Auto SR would become somewhat useful starting with gen7 games, which look pretty shimmery and bad even at 720p native resolutions. but stuff like that needs at least 2 frames buffered to compare them to eachother, which adds at least 16.6ms of lag in 60fps games and 33.3ms of lag in 30fps games.
so for PS2 that's just not worth it, for PS3 games it would lead to really bad lag as they already have suboptimal latency since they are streamed, for PS1 it's useless and pretty sure for PSP it would also be less useful, as PSP games usually work fine at high resolutions, and adding some emulator hacks would be easier than adding some ML upscaler.
they just need to improve their emulator
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ZehDon
Member
Actually, you can easily bump the resolutions of the vast majority of the PS2 catalogue (90%+) without code overwriting using simple emulator-level memory manipulation. If you want 100% compatibility, sure, you'd need a little help to get there, but there's legitimately very little stopping Sony from at least doing it automatically for the titles where it works flawlessly. For everything else, they can simply reach out for licensing / agreements, similiar to Microsoft's emulation efforts, for example. Given Sony charges for it's emulation efforts while Microsoft doesn't, doesn't feel like too much to ask.
Given the state this emulator stuff launched in, Sony clearly doesn't really give a shit about matching how things were. They fixed it up because people screaming about it because Sony has the balls to charge a subscription for PS1 emulation in 2024. If fans hadn't of screamed, they wouldn't offer any improvements of any kind at all.
You don't need PSSR to upscale emulators. If that's the best use Sony can muster for their PS5 Pro, then that's kinda sad, frankly.
Black_Stride
do not tempt fate do not contrain Wonder Woman's thighs do not do not
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Oh so it's total BS. UGH!
jm89
Member
ShakenG
Member
You'll be lucky if the PS6 isnt that price.
RagnarokIV
Battlebus imprisoning me \m/ >.< \m/
They need to work on getting some good CRT shaders ready, similiar to what I get on PC.
These old games are best at low res with shaders. You don't get the problem on 2D elements looking like shit next to sharp 3D. Pixel art looks gorgeous. Effects won't break etc.
The current 'filters' they have a laughable and absolute shite.
These old games are best at low res with shaders. You don't get the problem on 2D elements looking like shit next to sharp 3D. Pixel art looks gorgeous. Effects won't break etc.
The current 'filters' they have a laughable and absolute shite.