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Rainbow Six: Siege |OT| Idris Elba sold separately

Yes, that's my point, and always has been. I don't know why it's too hard to understand. Because of the enormous value dissonance Ubisoft his employing here, they are greatly devaluing the unlocking process in normal play in favour for just using real money. How can you not see that?!

Destiny's a great example. Can you imagine if they made their class boosters $5?! It would basically negate the entire in-game level-building process.

More casual players, who you seem to think will unlock "plenty enough renown" (not sure how you're quantifying this, by the way...) are basically getting backed into a corner here.

How are they backed into a corner? If they're so casual to make this complaint valid they probably still need to unlock other operators.

30 dollars to get to level 25 or if 40 is great, 5 to unlock a whole new character is terrible? Enjoy your employment with Bungie, I guess.
 

Enco

Member
25k seems a bit much to me.

Sure it's not impossible, but considering this is a full priced game 10k would be better.
 

Evolved1

make sure the pudding isn't too soggy but that just ruins everything
I think maybe folks are losing the forest for the trees here. That is really my overall point.

Of all the current games to draw a line in the sand.... Siege? Whatever.
 

Mentok

Banned
Yes, that's my point, and always has been. I don't know why it's too hard to understand. Because of the enormous value dissonance Ubisoft his employing here, they are greatly devaluing the unlocking process in normal play in favour for just using real money. How can you not see that?!

Destiny's a great example. Can you imagine if they made their class boosters $5?! It would basically negate the entire in-game level-building process.

More casual players, who you seem to think will unlock "plenty enough renown" (not sure how you're quantifying this, by the way...) are basically getting backed into a corner here.

Now you lost me. You're implying that the carrot being dangled by Ubisoft forces casual gamers to pony up $5 because it's quicker than the grind? But if it cost more then the grind becomes more justified? If that's your argument, then you and I have a difference of opinion of what "unbalanced" is.

EDIT: Also, I don't know why we're having an argument about this supposed "25k per operator", when that's a rumour that hasn't been confirmed by Ubisoft at all.
 
I think maybe folks are losing the forest for the trees here. That is really my overall point.

Of all the current games to draw a line in the sand.... Siege? Whatever.

Yup. A REQUIRED 50 dollar season pass for Battlefield games is great because you get maps and guns is fantastic. An OPTIONAL 30 dollar season pass in Siege where you can unlock everything gameplay related for FREE is too much.

IfeellikeImtakingcrazypills.gif
 

Animator

Member
This is not "dumb shit".

Casual play, going by your metric of 2-3 matches today, will probably attain around 1000 renown daily. That's nearly a month of casual play, every day in order to unlock one operator.

Or, you can just spend five bucks and get it instantly. Do you not see the imbalance here? It's the very definition of grinding for grinding's sake. If the operators were more expensive, say $15 each, I'd have no problem with this.

Micro transactions are great when they're balanced properly with the in-game economy. This is not the case here.


So your logic is "If only ubisoft charged me more for these operators I would have no issue because..."

oprah-shakes-head.gif
 
I don't have an issue with 25k for a new operator that they're only going to be putting out 8 over the year. I've been playing since release and even bought a few expensive skins with my renown and still have 40k banked.

I'm just saying, of all the games to get annoyed about.... Siege? Where every important thing (map, weapon, mode, character) is free, and the renown piles up pretty fast?

Okay. Sure.

I despise unlock systems just in general, but on the scale of the truly offensive, Siege barely registers. They actually get points for keeping pay-for entirely cosmetic. The fact this particular game has received disproportionate criticism, being maybe the least offensive "offender", has me scratching my head, and a bit annoyed.

Basically this. The worst thing about this model (which is easily the best model I've seen in any AAA FPS of recent years) is simply the fact that it generates discussions like these which will give the idea this is some forced microtransaction-laden game filled with grind to anyone who pokes in this thread just to check it out. The game couldn't be any further from that.

All this stuff basically takes up so little of the experience of this game that I am surprised every time it comes up. I love this game for the actual gameplay and I spend my time thinking about the strats and the map layouts and callouts and things like that and this kind of stuff barely registers until I see some dumb shit GiantBomb says about it. Compare it to a modern battlefield or similar game where so much effort is spend just looking and planning out upgrades and the grind. Here there is like a small section when you first get it of unlocking operators (which you should probably dole out slowly anyway so people actually LEARN them) and then it's just pure game.

People just saw 'Ubisoft making an MP only FPS!' and were ready to jump on the 'consumer advocate' train without actually analyzing and seeing that it's one of the least grindy and exploitative games around.
 

Screaming Meat

Unconfirmed Member
Basically this. The worst thing about this model (which is easily the best model I've seen in any AAA FPS of recent years) is simply the fact that it generates discussions like these which will give the idea this is some forced microtransaction-laden game filled with grind to anyone who pokes in this thread just to check it out. The game couldn't be any further from that.

Yup.

Yes, that's my point, and always has been. I don't know why it's too hard to understand. Because of the enormous value dissonance Ubisoft his employing here, they are greatly devaluing the unlocking process in normal play in favour for just using real money. How can you not see that?!

We can see your point, but your idea of a "solution" (Ubisoft increasing the cost of the boosters to match the grind "value") is completely arse backwards.
 

iMax

Member
So you just want the unlock with real money to be more expensive? This is such a weird complaint.

30 dollars to get to level 25 or if 40 is great, 5 to unlock a whole new character is terrible? Enjoy your employment with Bungie, I guess.

Now you lost me. You're implying that the carrot being dangled by Ubisoft forces casual gamers to pony up $5 because it's quicker than the grind? But if it cost more then the grind becomes more justified? If that's your argument, then you and I have a difference of opinion of what "unbalanced" is.

So your logic is "If only ubisoft charged me more for these operators I would have no issue because..."

oprah-shakes-head.gif

I'm stunned at you guys. What if it was 99¢ to unlock an operator then? Does that make my argument any clearer? You need to look at this with an economist's mindset.

You have two separate economies here. One is in-game, where rewards are tendered in exchange for experience, and out-of-game, where rewards are tendered in exchange for money. When these economies are not in balance, one economy is far cheaper than the other, and the other is depressed.

Just popped onto the store and brought up a random weapon skin on the 556xi priced at 180C/4000R. If we take this exchange rate and apply it here, it simply doesn't translate at all.

For this skin, 1 Rainbow Credit is worth approximately 22 Renown. However, for an operator priced at 600C/25,000R, this exchange rate doubles in favour of the out-of-game economy, with 1 Rainbow Credit worth approximately 42 Renown.

Based on the value they've applied thus far, an operator should be priced at around double the price: $10. At present, they're skewing far too much away from the in-game experience economy. That's how you get imbalance and that's how you break a game.

I don't like micro transactions generally. Up to now, I felt the way Ubisoft is handling them was fine. But once you start charging for non-cosmetic items with an economic grounding greatly skewed in favour to spending real-world money on them, you've got a problem. Why do you think Bungie is charging so much for their level boosts? If they charged less, it would break the game. The player would have an exponentially decreased desire to level up in a conventional sense.

EDIT: Also, I don't know why we're having an argument about this supposed "25k per operator", when that's a rumour that hasn't been confirmed by Ubisoft at all.

http://blog.ubi.com/rainbow-six-siege-post-launch-maps-operators-modes/
 

owlbeak

Member
We should be talking more about how the PS4 servers are barely functioning most of the time lately. It's beyond frustrating having to quit the application all the time because you're stuck at the fog infinite loading screen or getting dropped from matches.
 
Can any Xbox One players tell me how the netcode is doing? I'm very interested in this game but what I've been hearing about the netcode has me concerned.
 

iMax

Member
Can any Xbox One players tell me how the netcode is doing? I'm very interested in this game but what I've been hearing about the netcode has me concerned.

My ping has gone up quite a bit in the past week and I'm still having that "rubber-band" issue every so often. Also, a few matches without renown and that strange "synchronising data" bug.

Long story short, it's better but still not perfect.
 

Screaming Meat

Unconfirmed Member
I'm stunned at you guys. What if it was 99¢ to unlock an operator then? Does that make my argument any clearer? You need to look at this with an economist's mindset.

You have two separate economies here. One is in-game, where rewards are tendered in exchange for experience, and out-of-game, where rewards are tendered in exchange for money. When these economies are not in balance, one economy is far cheaper than the other, and the other is depressed.

Just popped onto the store and brought up a random weapon skin on the 556xi priced at 180C/4000R. If we take this exchange rate and apply it here, it simply doesn't translate at all.

For this skin, 1 Rainbow Credit is worth approximately 22 Renown. However, for an operator priced at 600C/25,000R, this exchange rate doubles in favour of the out-of-game economy, with 1 Rainbow Credit worth approximately 42 Renown.

Based on the value they've applied thus far, an operator should be priced at around double the price: $10. At present, they're skewing far too much away from the in-game experience economy. That's how you get imbalance and that's how you break a game.

I don't like micro transactions generally. Up to now, I felt the way Ubisoft is handling them was fine. But once you start charging for non-cosmetic items with an economic grounding greatly skewed in favour to spending real-world money on them, you've got a problem. Why do you think Bungie is charging so much for their level boosts? If they charged less, it would break the game. The player would have an exponentially decreased desire to level up in a conventional sense.

If the Operator costs are set in stone, isn't the more consumer friendly solution for Ubisoft to increase the amount of renown the player gets per round/action, rather than increase the real-money value of the boosters...?
 

iMax

Member
If the Operator costs are set in stone, isn't the more consumer friendly solution for Ubisoft to increase the amount of renown the player gets per round/action, rather than increase the real-money value of the boosters...?

For the operators, yes it would, but then the cosmetics' value would be skewed disproportionally in favour to the in-game economy, which probably wouldn't be optimal for Ubisoft.

Best thing they can do is just streamline their economy balancing across the board as it's going to be very inconsistent when the first content drop comes along.
 

Mentok

Banned
For the operators, yes it would, but then the cosmetics' value would be skewed disproportionally in favour to the in-game economy, which probably wouldn't be optimal for Ubisoft.

Best thing they can do is just streamline their economy balancing across the board as it's going to be very inconsistent when the first content drop comes along.

But why are we comparing the cosmetics to the operators? One is a non-factor when it comes to the gameplay, the other is a significant factor. Ubisoft is giving a consumer-friendly option for those that feel they just don't have the time to save up renown for those operators. Again, the purpose of the game isn't to grind renown, so why create an ecosystem that suggests it is?
 

iMax

Member
But why are we comparing the cosmetics to the operators? One is a non-factor when it comes to the gameplay, the other is a significant factor. Ubisoft is giving a consumer-friendly option for those that feel they just don't have the time to save up renown for those operators. Again, the purpose of the game isn't to grind renown, so why create an ecosystem that suggests it is?

If it's not about grinding renown, then why would anybody not buy the operators with real money considering they're so cheap?
 

Klyka

Banned
Had a couple great rounds with my friends.

In this one we pulled off a beautiful double breach based on drone intel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_1Sd0-YTv8

In this round I again do my now favorite role of providing intel and distraction via using drones from a safe spot
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_0R8Y_elxI


Twitch has become one of my favorite operators after just trying her for 2 rounds or so and I know basically use her in 8/10 rounds with my friends.
 

Mentok

Banned
If it's not about grinding renown, then why would anybody not buy the operators with real money considering they're so cheap?

Because there are those who play the game enough to not feel the need to? I mean there are people who put a lot of time into competitive shooters. Don't think of it as Ubisoft giving the option of buying the operators for $5 each, but that Ubisoft is giving the option of getting the operators without spending real money (which is unlike a lot of shooters. Hell, the biggest complaint with TLOU MP was the microtransactions).
 
I think this game is really fun so far, but it is definitely setup to be a F2P game and should be priced accordingly. Ugh, all this renown shit and boosters is egregious. Way to shit up an otherwise awesome game Ubisoft. This game should cost $30 tops. I am ok that I bought it, but after spending $60, having the game absolutely assault you with micro transaction shit is off putting as fuck. Really wish this was a F2P game. It would be much better.
 

Grimsen

Member
I think this game is really fun so far, but it is definitely setup to be a F2P game and should be priced accordingly. Ugh, all this renown shit and boosters is egregious. Way to shit up an otherwise awesome game Ubisoft. This game should cost $30 tops. I am ok that I bought it, but after spending $60, having the game absolutely assault you with micro transaction shit is off putting as fuck. Really wish this was a F2P game. It would be much better.

Are you playing the same game as everyone else here? Sounds like you're playing what Jeff Gerstmann played.
 
So I just played a match with a team, all clearance level over 100. I thought I was impressed but it seems they're glitching?

During preparation phase, when we have our drones out, they're running outside and planting Nitro Cells at the spawn.
 
I think this game is really fun so far, but it is definitely setup to be a F2P game and should be priced accordingly. Ugh, all this renown shit and boosters is egregious. Way to shit up an otherwise awesome game Ubisoft. This game should cost $30 tops. I am ok that I bought it, but after spending $60, having the game absolutely assault you with micro transaction shit is off putting as fuck. Really wish this was a F2P game. It would be much better.

I got nothin.
I dont know what this is.
 
Are you playing the same game as everyone else here? Sounds like you're playing what Jeff Gerstmann played.

His and Jeff's comments on the game make me rage for some reason, so many people just seem to be completely misinformed/misguided about how the microtransactions work in this game, they are very much as non-invasive as they can get, and then turning around and asking for it to be a f2p game? Really? Cause F2P games are so notorious for having fair and balanced microtransactions?
 

iMax

Member
Because there are those who play the game enough to not feel the need to? I mean there are people who put a lot of time into competitive shooters. Don't think of it as Ubisoft giving the option of buying the operators for $5 each, but that Ubisoft is giving the option of getting the operators without spending real money (which is unlike a lot of shooters. Hell, the biggest complaint with TLOU MP was the microtransactions).

Is it? Also, on a wider note, that's a pretty tragic precedent.
 

Grimsen

Member
Is it? Also, on a wider note, that's a pretty tragic precedent.

How is getting DLC content without paying tragic?

Look, Ubi wants players to pay 5$ for the operators. That's the best option for them.

Offering them with renown is great. If Ubi wants the average player to get enough renown for an operator after roughly 25 hours of play, it's their call. I'm sure they've weighed both prices to make sure they're balanced. They sure feel that way to me.
 
You realize there are F2P games besides exploitative mobile games right? Heroes of the Storm is F2P, and a damn good game because if it. F2P does not equal a bad game. Take your rose colored glasses off for a second and look at the landscape of beloved really good F2P games, all of which have micro transactions that are reasonable and well handled. HotS has an almost identical setup to RB6:S. Daily challenges, boosters, heroes/operators to unlock with either gameplay or shortcut microtranactions. The main difference is I didn't have to pay $60 for HotS but I did for RB6:S. I have to pay for a season pass for this game too for future content, in HotS and many many other F2P games you don't and it is good because the player community doesn't fragment. Edit: season pass more akin to player bundles than "traditional" season pass. My mistake.

You are being incredibly obtuse if you can't see how this is setup as a $60 F2P game. Again, this doesn't mean it is a bad game, in fact RB6:S is fucking awesome and crazy fun. Way better than any shooter in 2015. However, Ubisoft put this game in an obnoxious, F2P wrapper with a $60 price tag and it is bullshit. Unlike Jeff, I don't think the game is garbage because of this, but it deserves to be called out as another awful Ubisoft practice. This game is only going to get worse as new content releases. It will be like Destiny. You either have to have the season pass to be part of the core community or you stop playing. In that regard this isn't even a $60 F2P game, it is a $90 game with a near identical setup to several highly successful F2P games. One final time, I think the F2P aspects are shit, but the game itself is great which is a shame.


How do you not see this? You've stared into one too many flash bangs if you can't.
 
People complaining about sieges dlc model are crazy. And the fuck at wanting operators to be more expensive, is 2016 some kind of twilight zone or something?
 
I think this game is really fun so far, but it is definitely setup to be a F2P game and should be priced accordingly. Ugh, all this renown shit and boosters is egregious. Way to shit up an otherwise awesome game Ubisoft. This game should cost $30 tops. I am ok that I bought it, but after spending $60, having the game absolutely assault you with micro transaction shit is off putting as fuck. Really wish this was a F2P game. It would be much better.

gutterboy thank you for your early entry for worst post of 2016. Way to shit up a good thread. I feel assaulted by your hyperbole and your manufactured outrage is off putting as fuck. I really wish this was a youtube comment. It would be much better.

Its a little surprising there has been so much discussion about microtransactions in this thread lately when they are such a non-factor. I dont feel like Ubi has misrepresented anything other than naming that one piece of pointless additional purchasable a content a "season pass".
 

iMax

Member
How is getting DLC content without paying tragic?

Look, Ubi wants players to pay 5$ for the operators. That's the best option for them.

Offering them with renown is great. If Ubi wants the average player to get enough renown for an operator after roughly 25 hours of play, it's their call. I'm sure they've weighed both prices to make sure they're balanced. They sure feel that way to me.

It's a tragic precedent that we're thanking Ubisoft for letting us buy in-game content with in-game currency.

By the way, your 25 hours of play figure is assuming you win every match and get a high score on the leaderboard. That doesn't apply to everyone.
 
I'm just glad I bought this game for £15. It's fun, but I feel dirty just looking at the menu and the way it handles in-game purchases.

I never buy season passes or DLC in general to be honest, so I'm not exactly their target audience with this game.
 
In this thread: people who have never played good F2P games and look silly trying to pretend this game doesn't copy other F2P setups almost verbatim. This isn't your child being insulted here. It is a Ubisoft game. Jesus, learn I take some constructive criticism.
 
I'm just glad I bought this game for £15. It's fun, but I feel dirty just looking at the menu and the way it handles in-game purchases.

I never buy season passes or DLC in general to be honest, so I'm not exactly their target audience with this game.

What's so bad about it?

That the season pass is largely useless? This games unlock system is probably one of the better ones. You unlock operators so fast and that's the only thing that really effects the actual gameplay.
 

Animator

Member
This game is only going to get worse as new content releases. It will be like Destiny. You either have to have the season pass to be part of the core community or you stop playing. In that regard this isn't even a $60 F2P game, it is a $90 game with a near identical setup to several highly successful F2P games. One final time, I think the F2P aspects are shit, but the game itself is great which is a shame.


How do you not see this? You've stared into one too many flash bangs if you can't.

Are you guys trolling?

Here let me put it in simple terms for you:

Destiny: Content locked behind DLC. Someone who only has the base game have NO access to DLC content, they cannot even join most of the daily missions or strikes since they are %99 dlc based.

Siege: Nothing is locked behind DLC. Someone who gets the game a year from now has access to all the operators and maps and game modes. Yes it will take longer for them to unlock the dlc operators but they have access to all 20 operators the game launched with which take 2-3 days tops to unlock. None of that is game breaking or community dividing. The original 20 operators won't suddenly stop being viable or good because they released 8 more throughout the year in three month intervals.

In this thread: people who have never played good F2P games and look silly trying to pretend this game doesn't copy other F2P setups almost verbatim. This isn't your child being insulted here. It is a Ubisoft game. Jesus, learn I take some constructive criticism.

Oh nice the pre-emptive passive aggressive "heh you guys just can't handle criticism" defense.
 

Grimsen

Member
It's a tragic precedent that we're thanking Ubisoft for letting us buy in-game content with in-game currency.

By the way, your 25 hours of play figure is assuming you win every match and get a high score on the leaderboard. That doesn't apply to everyone.


You've lost me. Are you talking about the existing operators or the DLC?

Also, 25 hours isn't my number. it's Ubi's.
 

Mrfb17

Neo Member
So I picked this up over the new year. Started it today, did some Situations. I get the jist. So first game....

I'm on defense with the Hostage, ends up 1v1 with just me and the Hostage. Team mate just died upstairs so I sit and wait. 50 seconds on clock and I wait.... then I see the vote to kick me start then... I'm removed.

Did I do something wrong? I'm pretty sure me waiting for them to come to the hostage is the aim of Defense? Did I really get kicked because I didn't hunt them down like I'm playing CoD?

Not a great start.
 

Evolved1

make sure the pudding isn't too soggy but that just ruins everything
In this thread: people who have never played good F2P games and look silly trying to pretend this game doesn't copy other F2P setups almost verbatim. This isn't your child being insulted here. It is a Ubisoft game. Jesus, learn I take some constructive criticism.
You cannot get your facts straight yet criticise others. That's rich.
 
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