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Reggie: "Xbox(2) ... is a mistake"

DCharlie

And even i am moderately surprised
"PlayStation 2 is and will still be at the end of the current generation insanely popular, will have sold many more consoles and will have much stronger support from developers than Xbox will: many more PlayStation 2 users plus PlayStation 3 should very well be backward-compatible with PlayStation 2 games and PlayStation 1 games.

I do not see how even in the U.S. you can give Microsoft such a HUGE headstart in mind-share and projected market-share. "

No arguing there, but how about this for a flip side...

as you say, loads of people had a PS1 and PS2...
what if the PS3 launch titles and Xbox 2 are on par...

if you've already played the ass out of PS1 and PS2 games, and the Xbox 2 DOES turn out to be backwards compatible, then wouldn't the Xbox 2 look more interesting? you'd have a large library of games you never played opposed to the ability to play a load of games you already played (?)

Just a thought... i don't think it's as mad as it looks.
 

jedimike

Member
Panajev2001a said:
PlayStation 2 is and will still be at the end of the current generation insanely popular, will have sold many more consoles and will have much stronger support from developers than Xbox will: many more PlayStation 2 users plus PlayStation 3 should very well be backward-compatible with PlayStation 2 games and PlayStation 1 games.

I do not see how even in the U.S. you can give Microsoft such a HUGE headstart in mind-share and projected market-share.


It's a lot of speculation... things will become much clearer after manufacturers get through this holiday season and start divulging information.

Just weighing the pros and cons... and variables

feel free to add stuff where needed.


Xbox to Xenon pros

At least 6 month head start
Year over year growth
Increased marketshare
Increased Mindshare
XNA - and all that's included
Great developer support
Shitloads of money
SDK's already to developers
Great Marketing
Xbox Live

Xbox to Xenon cons

No Halo 3
MS being more conservative
PS3 hype train

Xbox to Xenon varaibles - could cause big swings once things get finalized

less featured than PS3???
less powerful than PS3???
high def DVD support???
mass storage capabilities???
backwards compatability??? if so, how limited
console size???
launch game line-up??? will need 2-4 heavy hitters
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
DCharlie said:
if you've already played the ass out of PS1 and PS2 games, and the Xbox 2 DOES turn out to be backwards compatible, then wouldn't the Xbox 2 look more interesting? you'd have a large library of games you never played opposed to the ability to play a load of games you already played (?)

Just a thought... i don't think it's as mad as it looks.

DCharlie, I disagree with you on this issue.

Just as the user-base is massive, the game library for both PSOne and PlayStation 2 is massive as well: that was a very "grasping at straws" argument.

Plus, you are forgetting about games who might have never gotten a PSOne or a PlayStation 2.

You are also forgetting about more new games that come out for PlayStation 2 than Xbox 1 once Microsoft starts pushing toward Xenon more and more (and they are not ending the message "developers keep working on Xbox 1, we will have backward-compatibility... they are saying the opposite: please transition to Xbox 2/Xenon as fast as you can).

You are also forgetting that the PlayStation 3 would offer a much bigger library from day one and would allow owners if PSOne and PlayStation 2 software to keep their purchase and play it on the next-generation machine, that is PlayStation 3.

Xbox does not have either a larger library than PlayStation 2 or a larger number of big AAA exclusives.

The ability of playing games I own on the new PlayStation 3 is important to me, plus I can keep getting PSOne and PlayStation 2 games: I cannot say that I have played all the games I wanted to play (no, not even concerning PSOne games).
 

DCharlie

And even i am moderately surprised
"Plus, you are forgetting about games who might have never gotten a PSOne or a PlayStation 2."

I'm sure all 5 of them won't make that big of a difference...

"You are also forgetting about more new games that come out for PlayStation 2 than Xbox 1 once Microsoft starts pushing toward Xenon more and more (and they are not ending the message "developers keep working on Xbox 1, we will have backward-compatibility... they are saying the opposite: please transition to Xbox 2/Xenon as fast as you can)."

That's a very good point.

"You are also forgetting that the PlayStation 3 would offer a much bigger library from day one and would allow owners if PSOne and PlayStation 2 software to keep their purchase and play it on the next-generation machine, that is PlayStation 3."

It's pretty obvious that i don't buy into BC as a massive breaker , but i can see it's important.

"Xbox does not have either a larger library than PlayStation 2 or a larger number of big AAA exclusives."

No denying that. I wonder what would happen though if the Xbox 2 undercuts the PS3 price significantly? If the PS2 can be kept and an Xbox 2 added for a price that would be cheaper than buying a PS3 with trade in from the old PS2, then you could keep the the PS2 , still have access to PS2 and PS1 stuff, but gain the Xbox 1 catalogue. All you'd miss out on is the new PS3 content....
 
"All you'd miss out on is the new PS3 content...."


....which is the main reason to buy the system.

Backwards compatibility is just a nice bonus on top of that. I haven't played a PS1 title in 2 years on my PS2, but I like to know that I can if I find a cool one I missed out on.
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
Even in the last case you present, getting a PlayStation 3 is worthy: you are not getting only backward-compatibility (which might come enhanced some more, especially in the PlayStation 2 case): if you are a long-time PlayStation 2 owner you have seen that even SCEI/SCEA/SCEE's made content is enough to warrant the purchase especially if you consider that third parties will not be witholding their support for the new member of the PlayStation family (all the contrary as they see the PlayStation platform as an investment for the future and SCE has pretty good relationships with thirda parties) plus there are other cards that could play into the equation (such as Blu-Ray hype, hopefully Memory Stick presence, USB 2.0 enabling to easily support external HDDs [HDD problem solved], Sony Connect, PSP linkage with PlayStation 3, etc...).

I do not think that Microsoft will be able to under-cut Sony/SCE that much in price after no more than 6 months they are on the market with Xbox 2/Xenon.

Sure, what if Microsoft releases Xbox 2/Xenon for $10 and/or it bundles it with Windows purchases ?

There are many what if's you can make: what if meteors hit all PlayStation 3's manufacturing plants all over the world on the same exact day at the same exact time, etc... ? This does not mean that they are all absolutely practical scenarios.
 

IJoel

Member
Panajev2001a said:
Even in the last case you present, getting a PlayStation 3 is worthy: you are not getting only backward-compatibility (which might come enhanced some more, especially in the PlayStation 2 case): if you are a long-time PlayStation 2 owner you have seen that even SCEI/SCEA/SCEE's made content is enough to warrant the purchase especially if you consider that third parties will not be witholding their support for the new member of the PlayStation family plus there are other cards that could play into the equation (such as Blu-Ray hype, hopefully Memory Stick presence, USB 2.0 enabling to easily support external HDDs [HDD problem solved], Sony Connect, PSP linkage with PlayStation 3, etc...).

I do not think that Microsoft will be able to under-cut Sony/SCE that much in price after no more than 6 months they are on the market with Xbox 2/Xenon.

Sure, what if Microsoft releases Xbox 2/Xenon for $10 and/or it bundles it with Windows purchases ?

There are many what if's you can make: what if an meteors hit all PlayStation 3's manufacturing plants all over the world on the same exact day at the same exact time, etc... ? This does not mean that they are all absolutely practical.

:lol:lol:lol
 

DCharlie

And even i am moderately surprised
"Even in the last case you present, getting a PlayStation 3 is worthy"

not if the Xb2 content spanks the PS3 content it wouldn't , surely?
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
DCharlie said:
"Even in the last case you present, getting a PlayStation 3 is worthy"

not if the Xb2 content spanks the PS3 content it wouldn't , surely?

Define spanking ;).


I do not believe Sony would launch in the U.S. with such a poor line-up and still the machine in itself should have a lot of redeeming qualities in other areas (still, this kind of talk makes little sense as I think they will have a good software line-up for the American launch).
 

DrGAKMAN

Banned
If there's no extra features, no HD and no BC...then Microsoft SHOULD include those things in an all-in-one add-on (hopefully for the consumer, at Xenon launch) to keep (some) people happy. It'll kinda suck that new buyers will have to buy this add-on to enjoy X-BOX games with Xenon...but current X-BOX owners wouldn't need one and therefore wouldn't be paying extra for it in Xenon.

So, that out of the way that leaves mainly the loss of a power edge and the HD-DVD situations as concerns. Power edge shouldn't be as big of a deal as once thought 'cos PS3 may be launching in Japan only a couple of months after Xenon launches here. And the disc format situation is going to be complex even if we knew what it would be so that's anyones guess.

The X-BOX has created a "following" that could follow them on to Xenon. I say "could" 'cos I dunno how they'll feel about losing features and/or a shortened lifespan of the current X-BOX. If MS's marketshare is ever going to grow then they need to garner new users outside their "followers". They need to tap into the growing mainstream/casual market and/or steal followers of other consoles away. But let's say they DON'T offer the HD/BC/extra features add-on I suggested above...then where does that leave their mindshare, suppossed "momentum" and potential to garner users OUTSIDE of their current followers??? If they can't do that then I don't see how their marketshare is going to grow beyond what it is now.

The masses will just wait for PS3 since it'll have the hype, the power edge, real momentum, be BC, won't have features pulled from it and 'cos developers/publishers/media/retailers/buyers ALL trust the Playstation line...and why not...it has the most titles and has longer, fuller lifespans. The only way MS is going to "steal away" any Sony users is if Sony makes such a mistake with PS3 that'll cause that trust in the PlayStation line to be damaged...and I just don't see it happenning going by what we know now. In fact, I can see MS's mindshare going into the crapper WAY before Sony's ever does.
 

kaching

"GAF's biggest wanker"
DCharlie said:
No arguing there, but how about this for a flip side...

as you say, loads of people had a PS1 and PS2...
what if the PS3 launch titles and Xbox 2 are on par...

if you've already played the ass out of PS1 and PS2 games, and the Xbox 2 DOES turn out to be backwards compatible, then wouldn't the Xbox 2 look more interesting? you'd have a large library of games you never played opposed to the ability to play a load of games you already played (?)
Not to say that the Xbox 2 won't have compelling content, but the argument that it will somehow benefit from a sense of same 'ol, same 'ol on the Playstation front, a case of too much homogenous goods if you will ;) doesn't really hold with anecdotal evidence or with sales trends. My own personal highlights from the PS2 library thus far differ significantly from the PS1 library highlights. There was no Burnout series, or Ico, or Socom, DMC, Dynasty Warriors, ZOE, SSX, Ratchet & Clank, Freedom Fighters, Eyetoy, etc. during the first PS generation.

And even if you then look at the best selling titles, none of them come close to selling to even half of the Playstation userbase, so how is the majority of the userbase suddenly going to get tired of what's been on offer for the Playstation consoles thus far, when it turns out its only been a minority that have participated in the "big" Playstation experiences like MGS, FF, GTA, GT, Madden, etc. and its not clear how much these respective game audiences overlap?

And even if everyone started buying Xbox2s instead of PS3s, wouldn't that mean that the big 3rd parties would just bring all their big licenses over to the Xbox2 and ultimately doom it to the same kind of homogeneity that supposedly will scare many away from the PS3? ;)
 

MrSingh

Member
All of the speculation in this thread is interesting but most of the people arguing vehemently in this thread:

1. Don't have any idea what's happening at MS regarding Xenon
2. Don't have any idea what's happening at Sony regarding PS3 (well I do but I'd have to kill you if I tell you anything :D )
3. Have no information about Revolution other than the scraps than Nintendo has been throwing out at the press
4. I have a picture of Pana's mutt
 

DCharlie

And even i am moderately surprised
"Not to say that the Xbox 2 won't have compelling content, but the argument that it will somehow benefit from a sense of same 'ol, same 'ol on the Playstation front, a case of too much homogenous goods if you will ;) doesn't really hold with anecdotal evidence or with sales trends. My own personal highlights from the PS2 library thus far differ significantly from the PS1 library highlights. There was no Burnout series, or Ico, or Socom, DMC, Dynasty Warriors, ZOE, SSX, Ratchet & Clank, Freedom Fighters, Eyetoy, etc. during the first PS generation."

Well, anecdotal evidence is somewhat limited, with the GBA and PS2 being the only cases. I'd be surprised if many people made the GB-GBA jump based on the BC aspect, but i'd definitely say that the PS1-PS2 jump was there.

"And even if you then look at the best selling titles, none of them come close to selling to even half of the Playstation userbase, so how is the majority of the userbase suddenly going to get tired of what's been on offer for the Playstation consoles thus far, when it turns out its only been a minority that have participated in the "big" Playstation experiences like MGS, FF, GTA, GT, Madden, etc. and its not clear how much these respective game audiences overlap?"

This also exasperated by a nigh on 2 year head start over the Xbox. Although i don't expect MS to storm ahead or even match Sony, it's going to be a lot tighter when the two machines launch. Also, MGS/FF/GTA and Madden - Sony ultimately have zero control over these projects. Sure, they are going to have a big pull with the developers, but they simply cannot guarantee these titles as PS3 exclusives with 100% certainty. That for me is where MS are dangerous (for sony and the industry in general). With the userbases wiped clean next gen, they could be utter w@nkers and just out muscle Sony if they really were serious about taking over.

What would the effect of MS getting Square to make FF13 on Xbox 2 , GTA5 on Xbox 2? The fact that people enjoyed those experiences on the PS2 will simply just work in MS's favour. I'd suggest a couple of moves like that could hurt Sony a fair bit.

"And even if everyone started buying Xbox2s instead of PS3s, wouldn't that mean that the big 3rd parties would just bring all their big licenses over to the Xbox2 and ultimately doom it to the same kind of homogeneity that supposedly will scare many away from the PS3? ;)"

I will be first in line to hate on MS then, and jump ship to Sony! I hate the big boys! ;)
 

Dilbert

Member
Thanks for taking time to read this.

AlphaSnake said:
I'm not sure I understand the supermarket analogy. Are you saying that when a supermarket advertises a select few products as being significantly marked down in price, they're still able to profit because that sale is drawing people into the store who aren't going to just buy those reduced items. In turn, they buy the reduced stuff, but mostly their items consist of items whose prices remain the same or have quietly been marked up. Did I get that right, or did an airplane just fly over my head?
That's correct. So, if you go into the store to buy a 12-pack of soda which the supermarket is losing $1.00 on because they are selling it below cost, but happen to buy (since you're in a snacking mood) a bag of potato chips (+$0.50), a frozen pizza (+$1.00), and a magazine (+$0.25), the store has still made $0.75 on the store visit, and therefore the strategy is instantly profitable.

If that's the case of the analogy, then I can't say it holds ground, because generally speaking, everything in a supermarket costs the same. Whereas the price differences between an Xbox, accessories and videogames are quite large -- although they have become far more tame today, in comparison to Nov. 2001. (Assuming I understood your analogy correctly).
Well, everything in a supermarket does NOT cost the same, but you're right that the supermarket analogy isn't an EXACT one because of the time factor. You make your supermarket purchases at once, but the total "purchase" of a videogame system happens over time. A better analogy might be a car dealer who goes REALLY low on the price of a new car to get a certain customer...hoping that the customer will bring their car into service at the same dealer, since service is highly profitable. He won't see that money for a while, but EVENTUALLY, the relationship will yield a profit.

A specific videogame example: Let's say for the sake of argument that you are selling a new console for $300, but it actually cost you $350 to build it. You will lose $50 for each console you sell...which means that you have to make $50 profit on something related to that console just to break even. Let's also hypothesize that the company gets a $10 cut out of each $50 game which is sold for the system. That means that, in order to break even, the average purchaser of the console has to buy five games. Although some people might buy those five (or more) games immediately, you would expect that most people would buy games over time. So, the company takes an immediate loss, but hopes to earn back the "missing profit" in the future...which is only possible with significant reserves (to handle the short-term loss) and a fairly risk-accepting environment, since it takes a lot of faith to go after that kind of strategy.

Now, this analysis is VERY simplistic, and ignores two critical factors that you would have to consider in the real world. First, this break-even analysis completely ignores the R&D which resulted in the design for the system in the first place. The company not only needs to earn back the variable/fixed costs associated with production, but also needs to recoup their initial investment and be able to fund future R&D projects to remain viable. Second, it also ignores the effects of price competition. If you improve your manufacturing process so that it only costs you $250 to build the system after a while, but market competition has driven your price point down to $150, you're now losing TWICE as much per system as you were! Even worse -- if your marketing department has done its job, you're selling even MORE items which result in a loss, which more than counterbalances the increasing lifetime game sales (and associated income).

I guess I've never come out and said it, but my point has been that if you're a newcomer and you're gaining a decent amount of ground over a veteran that's been around for over 20 years, you're clearly doing something right. Money is no concern to Microsoft. They chose to build a system that they knew was going to lose them money. MS is not concerned with losing money in regards to their hardware. They want to get a foot in the market and they're doing so. If the topic at hand was (let's say) JVC GameDude 3000, then yeah....that's a different story. JVC would never survive a $2B loss in one year's time, let alone set themselves up to take losses for the next 4-5 years. MS did. But MS can and knows that it won't affect them. The way they see it is that 5 years from now, they're going to likely make that money back ten fold. For the $6B they lost on the Xbox, they figure they'll make $10B in return -- $4B in profit. Of course, this is all figurative...but very, very possible; it just remains to be seen.
If I offered my services as a math tutor for $3/hour, I can guarantee you that I'd be booked solid, ten hours a day, for the entire school year, and I'd steal a ton of marketshare from the existing high school/college tutors in this area. I can also guarantee you that I'd be broke and kicked out of my apartment in no time flat because I couldn't meet my financial commitments.

My argument is that Microsoft's strategy is patently INSANE. You simply can't declare success after losing billions of dollars when all indications are that the situation is not going to improve for the current generation. (Their losses in that segment are flat, as noted in my earlier post, and I haven't seen anything about their R&D costs, though I assume they were significant.) If Xenon is also a "loss leader," Microsoft's stockholders will fight each other for the chance to blow up Xbox HQ. If it ISN'T a loss leader -- meaning that MS can make enough profit per console to recoup unit and shared R&D costs -- then I wonder what the value was in the first place of creating a Microsoft "brand" with the Xbox, especially if it doesn't end up being reverse compatible. If Xenon ends up being good enough to buy on its own merits (technology + games), then why was starting with a multi-billion dollar deficit in MS's videogame division a good thing?
 

DCharlie

And even i am moderately surprised
" If Xenon is also a "loss leader," Microsoft's stockholders will fight each other for the chance to blow up Xbox HQ. "

given the recent extraordinary dividend pay out announcement, i think shareholders couldn't give a crap!

Also, MS have always had the entertainment department burning cash on various other failed ventures. Weren't their losses then still significant?
 

Dilbert

Member
DCharlie said:
" If Xenon is also a "loss leader," Microsoft's stockholders will fight each other for the chance to blow up Xbox HQ. "

given the recent extraordinary dividend pay out announcement, i think shareholders couldn't give a crap!

Also, MS have always had the entertainment department burning cash on various other failed ventures. Weren't their losses then still significant?
BILLIONS of dollars? Again -- that's absolutely crazy. Name one other company which can afford to lose that much, year after year. At some point, even given the MS monopoly on other markets, that kind of loss WILL affect the overall MS financial picture.
 
-jinx-,

the main problem I have with your assessment is that this situation is not something that can be proven to be done any other way unless you can guarantee success using less funds. Breaking into this industry, one that is extremely different from almost any other in the world, is going to be hella expensive unless you are 'lucky' enough to hit big early on. MS has the werewithal to weather the losses and use them as more of an investment into gaining marketspace in a long-term business there. It's not been done this way before in this industry, but then again, this is brand-new territory in a relatively new industry.

There's a real reason that no one else is stepping up to the plate in this industry (as a newcomer) using a normal console plan (not an untested business model such as the Phantom, Nuon, and such): it costs an insane amount of money to break in against a market practically made for just two. This isn't a necessities-based business...its a luxury market that favors competing closed platforms. Sony did a great job with the PS1, but really benefited from the major mistakes made by both Nintendo and Sega that gen.
 

jarrod

Banned
kpop100 said:
The difference in tech age may be the same, but the actual difference is much larger from DC to PS2 than from PS2 to Xbox. The DC couldn't do a version of Burnout 3 that could hang with either the PS2 or Xbox versions (using BO3 as an example, because it's one of the best looking cross platforms games I can think of off hand).
Sure, but the difference between DC to PS2 (and GC/Xbox also) is pretty overblown imo. Most PS2 games could be done reasonably well on DC, in fact most PS2 games use ploycounts well within DC's range... and there's also Xbox games which really couldn't be replicated on PS2 as well... anything involving normal mapping (Doom 3, Riddick, etc) for example. I'm just saying, the difference between DC to pS2 is exaggerated while the difference between PS2 to Xbox is played down. If Xbox saw the same level of commitment from developers that PS2 does, you'd really see a clear difference I think.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
in fact most PS2 games use ploycounts well within DC's range

Now that's BS...

That was the Dreamcast's biggest weakness IMO. Unless EVERY SINGLE Dreamcast developer decided to avoid utilizing the hardware properly, I don't see how you could possibly believe that. Even generic, low grade 3rd party PS2 titles throw around more geometry on average than what you saw on the DC.
 

DCharlie

And even i am moderately surprised
"BILLIONS of dollars? Again -- that's absolutely crazy. Name one other company which can afford to lose that much, year after year. At some point, even given the MS monopoly on other markets, that kind of loss WILL affect the overall MS financial picture."

for MS, Billions of dollars isn't really making that much of a difference though. In the current MS climate, it just doesn't mean anything.

If other sectors started failing, then sure, you'd see MS retreat, but it's not happening, and as long as the other strands of the business keep making insane amounts of money, they'll be happy to squander a fraction of that on a potential dead avenue.
 

jarrod

Banned
dark10x said:
Now that's BS...
2-5 million is within DC's achievable range. And a good 90% of PS2 titles fall somewhere in there iirc. DC's problem in replicating PS2 games would be more lighting and effects imo, though that seems to be the same area PS2 would fall down compared to Xbox (normal mapping again).
 

jarrod

Banned
dark10x said:
That was the Dreamcast's biggest weakness IMO. Unless EVERY SINGLE Dreamcast developer decided to avoid utilizing the hardware properly, I don't see how you could possibly believe that. Even generic, low grade 3rd party PS2 titles throw around more geometry on average than what you saw on the DC.
No not every single developer... just about everyone besides the various Sega teams, Melbourne House, Argonaut & Team Ninja. :p

DC got throwaway efforts at best from the majority of developers out there. It's library being a good 60% old PS1/PC ports is a testament to that. Had DC been pushed regularly and for as long as PS2 has been, I think you'd be surprised with the platform.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
jarrod said:
2-5 million is within DC's achievable range. And a good 90% of PS2 titles fall somewhere in there iirc. DC's problem in replicating PS2 games would be more lighting and effects imo, though that seems to be the same area PS2 would fall down compared to Xbox (normal mapping again).

The problem is, very few DC games even began to approach that limit...

It isn't just about displaying raw geometry, you know. If it was so easy to approach the upper limit of that range, don't you think we would have seen it more often? A lot of the best looking DC games didn't even hit 1 million, let alone fall between 2 and 5 mil. Soul Calibur was said to push around 800,000, for example, and it still remains one of the best looking games on the system. Something like DOA2 probably sits quite a bit higher, but still likely under 2 million (maybe not, though, I'm not sure).

The effects and lighting are even more of an issue, of course, and would make that 2-5 million goal even more difficult.

The thing is, right out the gate, PS2 was clearly throwing around much more geometry. Games like SSX (a snowboarding game) had more complex character models than most DC games on the market.
 

jarrod

Banned
dark10x said:
The problem is, very few DC games even began to approach that limit...
Which is more a reflection on the effort given to the machine than the hardware itself.


dark10x said:
It isn't just about displaying raw geometry, you know. If it was so easy to approach the upper limit of that range, don't you think we would have seen it more often? A lot of the best looking DC games didn't even hit 1 million, let alone fall between 2 and 5 mil. Soul Calibur was said to push around 800,000, for example, and it still remains one of the best looking games on the system. Something like DOA2 probably sits quite a bit higher, but still likely under 2 million (maybe not, though, I'm not sure).
Again, DC was given secondary development if that by most teams. Any teams who actually did give a strong effort (like those I outlined before) showed a marked difference from the usual DC software.

Also, I never said it would be easy, only possible. DC was pretty untapped, with continued developer and library/tool support, I expect it would've progressed much further... as is DC had about only 2-2.5 years of afterthought development buy the industry.


dark10x said:
The effects and lighting are even more of an issue, of course, and would make that 2-5 million goal even more difficult.
Which I've already said. And coincidentally, it's the same notable advantage Xbox has over PS2 in general terms.

It's also worth noting, I've never proposed DC could handle exact ports, only reasonable versions. And that's definitely possible for every PS2 game I've seen just about.


dark10x said:
The thing is, right out the gate, PS2 was clearly throwing around much more geometry. Games like SSX (a snowboarding game) had more complex character models than most DC games on the market.
I'm willing to bet SSX didn't push 2 million pps, and it was the extreme high point of launch era PS2 visuals. It's like saying all DC launch games were Sonic Adventure or Soul Calibur level.
 

Leviathan

Banned
DCharlie said:
for MS, Billions of dollars isn't really making that much of a difference though. In the current MS climate, it just doesn't mean anything.

If other sectors started failing, then sure, you'd see MS retreat, but it's not happening, and as long as the other strands of the business keep making insane amounts of money, they'll be happy to squander a fraction of that on a potential dead avenue.

I saw a similar argument being used by stock analysts and news pundits back in the late 90s to justify the high stock prices of loss making dot-com companies. Even though many of the dot-com companies had increasing revenue, their losses were also increasing. Here are some of the things that the analysts said to investors:

(1) Don't worry, the venture capital funds (who poured billions of dollars into many dot-com start-ups) have endless amounts of cash.

(2) The dot-com companies are growing revenue.

(3) Brick and mortar companies will become obsolete.

(4) Losses are not important, growth is, etc.

Now I'm guessing that everyone here knows what eventually happened to many of these dot-com companies.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
I'm willing to bet SSX didn't push 2 million pps, and it was the extreme high point of launch era PS2 visuals.

Yes, and it has been more than outdone...yet there isn't a single SIMILAR style game on the DC that pushes even a fraction of the detail. Look at Sega Extreme Sports from Innerloop. They clearly put a lot of effort into the game (the sunlight effect is amazing for DC), but the actual terrain and characters that ride over it are just so simple looking. Johnny Mosely Madtrix (an ultra low grade 3DO game) is more detailed in that respect...

That's my point, even when devs put in a solid effort on DC...it still couldn't match early PS2 in terms of geometric detail.

As stated above, the gap between DC and PS2 is larger than the gap between PS2 and XBOX.
 

DCharlie

And even i am moderately surprised
"I saw a similar argument being used by stock analysts and news pundits back in the late 90s to justify the high stock prices of loss making dot-com companies. Even though many of the dot-com companies had increasing revenue, their losses were also increasing. Here are some of the things that the analysts said to investors:
(1) Don't worry, the venture capital funds (who poured billions of dollars into many dot-com start-ups) have endless amounts of cash.
(2) The dot-com companies are growing revenue.
(3) Brick and mortar companies will become obsolete.
(4) Losses are not important, growth is, etc.
Now I'm guessing that everyone here knows what eventually happened to many of these dot-com companies."

.... you don't think MS are in this category do you?

A company that's pulling in over $2 billion a quarter in profit? (AFTER Xbox losses ;))
 

jarrod

Banned
dark10x said:
Yes, and it has been more than outdone...yet there isn't a single SIMILAR style game on the DC that pushes even a fraction of the detail. Look at Sega Extreme Sports from Innerloop. They clearly put a lot of effort into the game (the sunlight effect is amazing for DC), but the actual terrain and characters that ride over it are just so simple looking. Johnny Mosely Madtrix (an ultra low grade 3DO game) is more detailed in that respect...
Detail in what regard? I'd say Sonic Adventure 2, Shenmue or DOA2 are throwing around more detail (though they obviously have a different focus being in different genres, SA2 is sorta comparable in parts though).


dark10x said:
That's my point, even when devs put in a solid effort on DC...it still couldn't match early PS2 in terms of geometric detail.
Sure they could. Do we really need to get into list wars?


dark10x said:
As stated above, the gap between DC and PS2 is larger than the gap between PS2 and XBOX.
I'm not disputing that, only that DC to PS2 is exaggerated while PS2 to Xbox is downplayed generally.
 

kaching

"GAF's biggest wanker"
DCharlie said:
Well, anecdotal evidence is somewhat limited, with the GBA and PS2 being the only cases. I'd be surprised if many people made the GB-GBA jump based on the BC aspect, but i'd definitely say that the PS1-PS2 jump was there.
On the contrary, tens of millions likely made the jump from one platform to the next in both cases, so I'd hardly say there's a scarcity of anecdotal evidence to mine if you're so inclined - you get that kind of data 24/7 here at GAF, whether you ask for it or not!

But my point wasn't about BC, my point was about general experience from generation to generation and whether that really felt the same for the majority of gamers on those platforms.

This also exasperated by a nigh on 2 year head start over the Xbox. Although i don't expect MS to storm ahead or even match Sony, it's going to be a lot tighter when the two machines launch. Also, MGS/FF/GTA and Madden - Sony ultimately have zero control over these projects. Sure, they are going to have a big pull with the developers, but they simply cannot guarantee these titles as PS3 exclusives with 100% certainty. That for me is where MS are dangerous (for sony and the industry in general). With the userbases wiped clean next gen, they could be utter w@nkers and just out muscle Sony if they really were serious about taking over.
There's no denying the potential of a headstart to assist in creating a tighter competition next gen, but now you're describing a scenario that's rather the opposite of what I originally responded to. Now, suddenly, the games that defined the Playstation experience are *not* going to drive people away in search of something new? Make up your mind, DC. Not that I'd really blame you for switching on this one, since your earlier position really was a bit crazy. ;)
 

Leviathan

Banned
DCharlie said:
.... you don't think MS are in this category do you?

Read my post carefully. To summarize, I see a bit of a parallel here between the dot-com companies and their late 90s hype and the Xbox business and its present hype. Venture capital funds is to Microsoft as the dot-com companies are to the Xbox business.
 

DCharlie

And even i am moderately surprised
"There's no denying the potential of a headstart to assist in creating a tighter competition next gen, but now you're describing a scenario that's rather the opposite of what I originally responded to. Now, suddenly, the games that defined the Playstation experience are *not* going to drive people away in search of something new? Make up your mind, DC. Not that I'd really blame you for switching on this one, since your earlier position really was a bit crazy. ;)'

now hold on a minute, you are putting words in my mouth that i never said. My point was , and it's no hating on the PS2 / PS1 library or anything, that if the Xbox 2 and PS3 have a similar line up (hell, maybe even the damn same games give or take a couple) and , say, i've got all PS2 games i wanted to play, but i'd never played Halo, Orta, Kotor, Otogi 1/2, or want to give online games a try, then surely IF Xbox 2 is backwards compatable, that would open up a new range of software that i haven't tried in the first place? I just don't see whats crazy about that idea - why is Xbox BC not going to have the same sort of pull as PS2 BC? Vice versa, a Xbox only owner might look at the PS family line up and say "hell, this is my chance to dip into that library."

The secondry arguement is mildly unrelated but equally valid IMO. I did not say what you are saying i said - the that PS experience games are going to drive people away.

The second point was that the games that define most of the "PS experience" aren't totally in Sony's control and this is a weakness that MS could exploit if they want to be aggressive. Of course, Sony have leverage with certain developers and the expectation is that the biggest user base would go to sony, and i'm sure dually beneficial arrangements will be made, etc etc...

but what if MS do start throwing the cash around? I don't buy into the "Japanese companies would never sell out to a western firm" because , well, it's bollox and in some cases, they wouldn't have a choice. FF13 on Xbox 2 and GTA5 on Xbox 2 - exclusively - would hurt Sony.... is that so crazy of a notion?? I'd hazard that lots of very interesting conversations are going on right now between MS and companies and Sony and companies...

There is nothing crazy about these statements - and i've not been drinking lately!
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
SA2 is not throwing around too much detail. The 60 fps framerate cost them a lot. The game has a lot of draw in and rather simplistic areas...

I'd say SSX is more geometrically complex by quite a bit. The character models in SSX have higher poly counts than Sonic himself, and there can be six of them on the screen at any one time. The draw distance is higher and the slopes themselves are made of more complex meshes than what you see in Sonic. SSX is not field rendered either...

It is also throwing around more advanced lighting and effects during all of this.

SA2 was considered one of the best looking games released for the DC. It did have some impressive aspects, though. The stencil shadows were very impressive (these were even removed on GC) and the textures are rather high resolution.

Just for shits, let's look at the racing lineage of DC...

I think your point holds up here, though. The only racer I've seen that holds up decently is F355.

segarally2_screen016.jpg


lemans_1206_screen011.jpg


Ferrari355Challenge_screen097.jpg


vrally2_screen005.jpg


rush2049_b2_screen002.jpg


side note: This is what MSR looks like on a VGA box...

msr_1130_screen007.jpg


SegaGT_screen002.jpg


daytonausa_screen044.jpg


screenshot_screen008.jpg


speeddevils_screen032.jpg


td6_screen019.jpg


redliner_screen002.jpg


superspeed_screen009.jpg


fourwt_screen006.jpg


4x4evolution_1108_screen019.jpg


demolitionracernoexit_b4_screen004.jpg


ducati_screen010.jpg


f1wgp_screen046.jpg


pod_screen002.jpg


vanishingpoint_1220_screen021.jpg
 

kaching

"GAF's biggest wanker"
You're right, DC - I missed a step in there and came off with the wrong read on your comments as a result. Sorry about that. This time it's me who's been doing the drinking.
 

P90

Member
DCharlie said:
The second point was that the games that define most of the "PS experience" aren't totally in Sony's control and this is a weakness that MS could exploit if they want to be aggressive. Of course, Sony have leverage with certain developers and the expectation is that the biggest user base would go to sony, and i'm sure dually beneficial arrangements will be made, etc etc...

but what if MS do start throwing the cash around? I don't buy into the "Japanese companies would never sell out to a western firm" because , well, it's bollox and in some cases, they wouldn't have a choice. FF13 on Xbox 2 and GTA5 on Xbox 2 - exclusively - would hurt Sony.... is that so crazy of a notion?? I'd hazard that lots of very interesting conversations are going on right now between MS and companies and Sony and companies...

There is nothing crazy about these statements - and i've not been drinking lately!

Dcharlie- you ranted up and down disputing me in a thread about a week back when I asserted that Xenon would need strong Japanese support to challenge the PS3. Why your sudden 180?
 

Fafalada

Fafracer forever
jarrod said:
2-5 million is within DC's achievable range.
And PS2's is 10-20M.

DC's problem in replicating PS2 games would be more lighting and effects imo
But that's still the same subject - the number and type of shader/geometry operations per polygon is what directly determines how many polygons machine can draw. And as DC is the only console that shares geometry power with all the rest of game logic and CPU code, that difference only gets larger in actual game situations as opposed to just demos.

DCharlie said:
yes, this isn't aimed at you, but isn't it odd that the Xbox launched a few years after the PS2 and the technical superiority is played down
Odd, I always felt that technical advantage was by far the most upplayed feature of XBox period. Heck for me personally, that was the only reason I found it interesting, though admitedly I'm not a mainstream gamer. :)
 

P90

Member
Spike said:
Seriously though, who gives a damn who is number one or two or three? Unless you own stock in these companies, you really shouldn't.

I own stock on all three. So, I have extra right to gripe about all the consoles. ;)
 

P90

Member
Fafalada said:
Odd, I always felt that technical advantage was by far the most upplayed feature of XBox period. Heck for me personally, that was the only reason I found it interesting, though admitedly I'm not a mainstream gamer. :)

Goes to Target and looks at Xbox sign:

"Most powerful gaming console"
"Most powerful CPU"
"Blistering fast nVidia graphics"
"Hard drive eliminates needs for expensive memory cards"

Yup, the tech advantages are the most upplayed feature.
 

DCharlie

And even i am moderately surprised
kaching - ah, don't tease me with your drinking antics! I've been cutting down... I'm still making no sense, but i'm at least drinking less!

"Dcharlie- you ranted up and down disputing me in a thread about a week back when I asserted that Xenon would need strong Japanese support to challenge the PS3. Why your sudden 180?"

I don't think having the Japanese support is absolutely necessary for "success" but if MS *are* serious about taking Sony's crown GLOBALLY, then they will have to do something about the situation here in Japan.

I think it's quite possible for them to be successful and not take the Japanese market.
 

Fafalada

Fafracer forever
DCharlie said:
I think it's quite possible for them to be successful and not take the Japanese market.
Oh no doubt - especially now that Japanese market is clearly number 3 in size.
Though there may be more shifting of balance around the corner as other parts of asia grow. Not sure if/when consoles will become relevant, but PC online has been growing rather fast in rest of Asia lately (I mean aside for Korea :p)...
 
jedimike said:
Come on che... working for the industry, I figured you would be more on top of these things.

PS3 is going to be releasing only 6 months later than Xenon. Plus, it has been in development longer. There is no indication that PS3 will be more powerful than Xenon. Time is not a factor in the equation.

Now, let's just assume that PS3 is more powerful. Will developers be able to to take advantage of the power and make games that look substantially better than Xenon? No. Both systems will be more than capable of handling all the poly's, particles, and textures that devs can throw at them.


Well I work in the industry as well and I have to agree with Che. All indications we are getting is that the power advantage the xbox enjoyed is probably not going to be there in compairison to the PS3.

But I am glad that you, can already predict that we won't be able to take advantage of the PS3. As we have shown, give us that little EXTRA poly here and there and we will take advantage of it.

As far as Xenon emulating Xbox, well... let's hope your Xbox doesn't have a thompsons drive in it should you want to play your old xbox games. :D

Not saying that there won't be BC, but as the months draw closer and closer, there has been indication that BC is not going to happen. But if BC isn't a big selling point for you, then don't worry about it. In fact don't even talk about it, because the more you talk about the more you make it seem important. Which just gives more ammo to those that believe BC to be important.

No all that is left to see is if Itagaki is a man of his word and he only works on the most powerful hardware, which means he has to face Tekken again on the same system.
 

DCharlie

And even i am moderately surprised
"No all that is left to see is if Itagaki is a man of his word and he only works on the most powerful hardware, which means he has to face Tekken again on the same system."

OMFG! Tekken on Xbox 2 revealed!?!?!?

Also, this....

daytonausa_screen044.jpg


has to be the worst screenshot of Daytona in existence!
 

MrSingh

Member
Duckhuntdog said:
Well I work in the industry as well and I have to agree with Che. All indications we are getting is that the power advantage the xbox enjoyed is probably not going to be there in compairison to the PS3.

But I am glad that you, can already predict that we won't be able to take advantage of the PS3. As we have shown, give us that little EXTRA poly here and there and we will take advantage of it.

As far as Xenon emulating Xbox, well... let's hope your Xbox doesn't have a thompsons drive in it should you want to play your old xbox games. :D

Not saying that there won't be BC, but as the months draw closer and closer, there has been indication that BC is not going to happen. But if BC isn't a big selling point for you, then don't worry about it. In fact don't even talk about it, because the more you talk about the more you make it seem important. Which just gives more ammo to those that believe BC to be important.

No all that is left to see is if Itagaki is a man of his word and he only works on the most powerful hardware, which means he has to face Tekken again on the same system.

oh? so you have the PS3 specs? so tell us what PS3's capabilities are.

and let us know about Xenon while you're at it.
 

borghe

Loves the Greater Toronto Area
you will NEVER see the power discrepancy next gen that we saw this gen. MS did what they had to, they built some powerful ass hardware, took a loss on the entire division (and especially hardware) for the entire generation, all to get there name into households.

well, now their name is there and investors won't be happy with TWO money losing generations. All of the xboys have defended MS' losses by saying "It is a long term investment". Well, Xenon is the time to put up or shut up. Xenon's life should extend to over ten years since the XBox first went into development, and if MS' home and entertainment division can't turn a profit this gen, I don't care WHAT place they are in, MS will be forced by investors to pull from the console market.

So not seeing as MS wants to PULL themselves from that market, they have no choice but to keep Xenon in line with what the other two are doing power-wise.

They do have ONE advantage being MS and launching a year early. They can actually afford to take big losses in that first year to bring their hardware up to a level where the believe Sony and Nintendo will be a year later. So say (out of my ass) Sony and Nintendo will be able to do 900M poly per second. Well, a normal system developer releasing a year early (see PS2 and DC) might only be able to push 800M to release at that price point. What MS can do though is actually release a system a year early that can push those 900M polys, take huge loses on the system for the next year, and then when PS2 and Revolution release they are still graphically competitive and now on the same system lifecycle that those two are on.

Of course taking murphy's law into account and assuming a $299 retail at launch, that would mean MS will have to lose about another $150-200 PER UNIT for the first year, and will not be able to cut price after the first year to compete.

So there, MS can release a year early and not look "ugly" like the DC and PS2 ended up looking. The question is, will they take those losses and is the public really ready to move on to a new generation. MS knows the answer to the first question, the second question will only be able to be answered with time.
 
MrSingh said:
oh? so you have the PS3 specs? so tell us what PS3's capabilities are.

and let us know about Xenon while you're at it.

I only know what Sony and MS have kindly hinted at or gained through friends, but at this moment I would have to give the power nod to PS3. Anything more and I would be in the unemployment line. :) But since you seem to be more in the know, care to fill in any blanks for me and the rest of us, please.

But I am sure, MS can up the power if they so feel, but I think Xenon is being made with profit in mind this time around.

Either way, I have to say that Sony is going to three-peat.
 

dark10x

Digital Foundry pixel pusher
DCharlie said:
"No all that is left to see is if Itagaki is a man of his word and he only works on the most powerful hardware, which means he has to face Tekken again on the same system."

OMFG! Tekken on Xbox 2 revealed!?!?!?

Also, this....

daytonausa_screen044.jpg


has to be the worst screenshot of Daytona in existence!

Ha ha? You are so wrong. :) Gamespot has a really bad collection Daytona shots. That was one of the best...

daytonausa_screen001.jpg


daytonausa_screen004.jpg


daytonausa_screen007.jpg


daytonausa_screen003.jpg


Of course, if we were discussing image quality...that might be a problem.
 

P90

Member
DCharlie said:
kaching - ah, don't tease me with your drinking antics! I've been cutting down... I'm still making no sense, but i'm at least drinking less!

"Dcharlie- you ranted up and down disputing me in a thread about a week back when I asserted that Xenon would need strong Japanese support to challenge the PS3. Why your sudden 180?"

I don't think having the Japanese support is absolutely necessary for "success" but if MS *are* serious about taking Sony's crown GLOBALLY, then they will have to do something about the situation here in Japan.

I think it's quite possible for them to be successful and not take the Japanese market.

I guess I wasn't clear. Xenon needs strong Japanese development support, i.e. SquareEnix, Konami, Capcom, Namco, etc. or there is no way Xenon will be no.1. The Japanese buying market is fairly significant, but not the point I was making.
 
Gaming is kind of becoming polarized with the rise of the casual gamer. The Japanese power to set trends and be the watermark for games is really weak now. In fact it's almost become territorialized. Western deved games are sell great in the West, while not doing so well in Japan (although gaining in popularity), meanwhile Japanese deved games are losing influence in the West as western devs take the Japanese style of game development and refine it with the flexability that western game development offers.

It's sort of like what happened to the automotive industry, but in reverse: We are taking the Japanese process, altering it and mixing it with out style and basically dominating Japan.

Will this last? Will the Japanese catch on and try the same approach? Or are they so steadfastly stuck in their ways that they just will refuse to change?
 

Fafalada

Fafracer forever
MrSingh said:
and let us know about Xenon while you're at it.
I'll trade you for PS3 GPU spec :D

DCharlie said:
"No all that is left to see is if Itagaki is a man of his word and he only works on the most powerful hardware, which means he has to face Tekken again on the same system."
OMFG! Tekken on Xbox 2 revealed!?!?!?
No no no, Tekken on Revolution!!!! :p
 

P90

Member
Duckhuntdog said:
Gaming is kind of becoming polarized with the rise of the casual gamer. The Japanese power to set trends and be the watermark for games is really weak now. In fact it's almost become territorialized. Western deved games are sell great in the West, while not doing so well in Japan (although gaining in popularity), meanwhile Japanese deved games are losing influence in the West as western devs take the Japanese style of game development and refine it with the flexability that western game development offers.

It's sort of like what happened to the automotive industry, but in reverse: We are taking the Japanese process, altering it and mixing it with out style and basically dominating Japan.

Will this last? Will the Japanese catch on and try the same approach? Or are they so steadfastly stuck in their ways that they just will refuse to change?

I totally disagree:

Big Time (> 1 million WW) Western Games/Series

Halo
GTA
Splinter Cell
max Payne?
Metroid Prime?



Big Time (>1 million WW) Japanese Games/Series

GT
Zelda
Mario
SSB
MGS
Pokemon
Onimusha
FF
DQ
Winning Eleven
That court game by Capcom
RE?
Silent Hill?
Ninja Gaiden?

I don't see much of a shift at all. When it comes to games/series that sell the smart money is on Japan.
 
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