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Rejected Pixar Movie [Mafia] | Won't Someone Think of the Children?

Gorlak

Banned
nin1000
votes exma (62)
claims vanilla (87)
sorian weird silence (108)
votes ouro (122)
exma or kyan (135)
148 first explanation
townreads melon and kawl
prods mia players
gives up pretty early (315)

Later he seemed angry at Exma for voting him without any reason and had to ask him more than once about it.

I forgot to put in the brief discussion with LP (LP said something like "get your own prod vote", which was exma at that time, and nin responded that his current vote is Ouro) -> based on that discussion alone I feel like the two wouldn't be in a team.

He feels different but also similiar from earlier games, less aggressive, yet the same "hin und her" nin. I've never seen scum nin in action, but in here he feels distant and passive.

Nothing else about nin stands out and now he has a town check by melon.
 

Gorlak

Banned
Because they were worried I'd track them, so they did nothing OR because they only have a blocker left?
Shit. You're right. Blocker can do both. Never mind.
Eh, that was odd? Why would you assume a blocker anyway?

---

I have to agree with Kawl here:
Just got here and it seems like the bus is already taking off without me. Don't know what to make of mellon's tracker/watcher claim, but it's the best lead to go off of, and L_P's looked kinda sus already, so...
Lone_Prodigy
Also when I was rereading yesterday this post and its verbiage jumped out at me.
Probably just means she's a cop, then. It was you guys who assumed Tracker/watcher.

Also the quote above proves you went with the assumption of tracker/watcher claim as well, even though you had a problem with it? Why would you single out others as "you guys assumed"? Also "bus" and "LP looked kinda sus already" reeks of a dubious intent...

---
Well.. .here I go again, second guessing everything all over again.
 

Gorlak

Banned
If scum wanted to target a non obvious target in the hopes of having their kill actually go through, who do you think would be likely?

The obvious were Melon or Ouro. Next up were Exma and Pop who lynched after the claim. You yourself were a viable target, but could be framed today with your reaction towards me (which nobody but me hinted at). I was worried of being killed, but I was probably suspicious enough to not be offed. Nin was a non-entity, the safest out of the mentioned yet, but to be the safest I'd probably have targeted Kyan because who would protect that guy?
 

CzarTim

Member
Day 3 votes


melonrabbit (0)
ourobolus 622 (671)

ourobolus (1)
gorlak 705

ora_1481756400.png
 

Kawl_USC

Member
Hey, I'm awake.

LP's flip made it pretty clear that melon is not a tracker. The thing was her whole behaviour D1 and all the suspicion she harboured against LP totally fit her move to check LP. She said multiple times she feels sth. was off with LP.
Now there was absolutely no need at all to bus LP at this point in the game. I have my doubts about her being town, but she is not scum in my eyes.
This leads me to the reactions to her claim. Ouro, Pop and Exma are the ones to believe her and almost immediatly lynch LP. All three show little doubt about the claim. This makes me feel good about them, especially Pop and Exma.
Scum however would know that melon's claim was bullshit. A ninja can't be tracked. They would hesitate to throw a vote down on LP instantly - like Kyan. He was the only one to post but not vote LP in the short period of time.

The people missing melon's claim were: Kawl, lp, nin and me. At this point the scum suspects for me were nin, Kawl and Kyan. Ouro is still alive even after hinting at doc. I wonder if he assessed swiftly that LP was going down and went in, this

The further down, the scummier:

Melon
Pop | Exma
Nin
Ouro
Kyan
Kawl

I want to hear Kawl's reasoning for voting me yesterday. You did so without any explanation immediatly after I voted LP.

Kyan gets an extra mention for not suggesting to look into LP as Stan's vote but to look at the Stan voters.

I was drinking heavily pretty much all of Friday and Saturday. I had no intention of playing the game of mafia until Sunday when I would be hungover but not actively drunk. So I channeled my inner Cabot and was shit posting. Which most definitely involves voting you almost always.

Now I need to go back and see how obvious melon was of her LP suspicions. If it is as clear cut as you say, that makes me feel substantially less good about yourself. Right now your early push on LP is my main reason for town reading you. I need to go back and read the order of events to see if you still get credit for that or if it might have been posturing in case of investigation on Lp
 

Kawl_USC

Member
If Kawl is the doc he can probably semi confirm another town player. We miss your N1 target and reasoning btw.

I'd also like to hear from melon why she went after nin of all people.

I want Ouro to claim here and now, you consistently ask for PR to reveal but keep yourself out of it.

I'm vanilla town.

Your first statement is unfortunately not correct as I've stated its not that clear. There are some complications. If you can figure out what I mean great, otherwise I will share all before the day ends for sure, but want some actual gum shoeing to happen before day's end.

I would agree I'm probably good with ouro claiming.

Our tracker is helped by every vanilla town claim honestly. Any one who claims vanilla and is seen moving immediately moves up top of suspicious list.
 

Kawl_USC

Member
I looked into LP's interactions during D1 and there was little:

Interactions with LP
LP - votes exmachina (37)
Sorian votes him (46)
LP - get own prod vote nin (152)
nin corrects him (153)
melon says he isn't as observant as usual (154)
LP - defends his "attack" against nin
LP - mentions pop, me, stan, kawl (later?), nin (179)
melon says sth is off
melon/lp shizzle
Stan votes LP (281)
LP - critisizing Stan (355)
LP - mentions kawl, melon, exma, sorian, kyan, votes Stan (358)
LP - talks about Ouro Stan push, Kyan following (392)

Offside note:
Ouro goes after Stan (the one with the vote on LP remember?)

So he engaged little in actual discussion. The most was 2 or 3 posts with melon. But he mentioned every player in the game without any focus I could note.

Another remark: He had the chance to vote out Ouro D1 but opted for Sorian.

I think you are missing the mark with the line of reasoning such as ouro pushing against Stan simply because he had voted LP. That's exactly the type of connections scum try to avoid and the foremost hint is generally don't freak out about a single vote. Both LP and ouro are experienced enough where there is no way I see a scum team of those two reacting in that way.

LPs preference for Sorian over ouro day 1 is more interesting however.

Thanks for all the effort Gorlak. Even if I disagree with some of your thoughts. I'll try to give more posts based analysis today after the mostly role based discussion last night.
 

Gorlak

Banned
I was drinking heavily pretty much all of Friday and Saturday. I had no intention of playing the game of mafia until Sunday when I would be hungover but not actively drunk. So I channeled my inner Cabot and was shit posting. Which most definitely involves voting you almost always.

Shitpost without any meaning behind, well I've got to take it as that, but it doesn't quite satisfy me. And I still don't see your vote on Sorian D1 as an easy "could've been anyone" especially since you put in some effort and forced Ouro to vote Sorian as well. Why?

Now I need to go back and see how obvious melon was of her LP suspicions. If it is as clear cut as you say, that makes me feel substantially less good about yourself. Right now your early push on LP is my main reason for town reading you. I need to go back and read the order of events to see if you still get credit for that or if it might have been posturing in case of investigation on Lp

The clear cut obvious hindsight connection between melon's suspicion and her night action was something I found during this night phase. But I agree that my voiced suspicion against LP yesterday shouldn't give me a free ticket especially since I missed out on the day end.

I think you are missing the mark with the line of reasoning such as ouro pushing against Stan simply because he had voted LP. That's exactly the type of connections scum try to avoid and the foremost hint is generally don't freak out about a single vote. Both LP and ouro are experienced enough where there is no way I see a scum team of those two reacting in that way.

LPs preference for Sorian over ouro day 1 is more interesting however.

And you're missing the point that scum freaked out and killed Stan over his single vote on LP. Your argument is simply "it's too obvious", and this doesn't seem to be the case with the scum team we are facing here.

Bottom line: Ouro is town in your eyes?
 

Kawl_USC

Member
Well actually we have no idea if that's why Stan was killed. It could have been his post where he didn't also claim vanilla town after nin did for PR hunting. For all we know scum chat will show post game that they didn't want to kill since his vote was on LP but PR hunting took preference. Looking for the logic behind night 1 kills is often a fools errand and just because the tunnel you got off of it was correctly scum doesn't mean it was the correct move.
 

Kawl_USC

Member
I flopped between Sorian and ouro because both were active and here and wanted to see how people responded. I would also be lying if I didn't say I just enjoyed putting both of those assholes in the hot seat. Personal enjoyment and all that.

I didn't see any particular scummy behavior on day 1, so no I really didn't have much of a preference. You're welcome to scum read me for that if you will, but I'm no gonna trump up false suspicions and tunnel when I don't see any reason to feel strongly.
 

Kawl_USC

Member
Ouro isn't the person I find least town right now.

I'd like to hear him claim, but his whole hydro cannon speil gave him a bit of a town read on him, yes.
 

Kawl_USC

Member
Not to mention that finding it hard to see how a scum team of LP/X would do some Y is a statement that can be used as evidence/justification. It's a different strategy but still valid. Don't hand wave away that thought process.
 

Gorlak

Banned
Not to mention that finding it hard to see how a scum team of LP/X would do some Y is a statement that can be used as evidence/justification. It's a different strategy but still valid. Don't hand wave away that thought process.

I'm not sure I'm getting the point right. I understand that you think LP/Ouro wouldn't be obvious about stan/one vote because experience. I don't hand wave your thoughts away, I simply disagree. It is quite possible they would tackle it the obvious way because of that experience, I also deem Ouro as the kind of player who could be very blatant, but get away with it... Hell you played Harry Potter and saw Crab.
 

Gorlak

Banned
Ouro isn't the person I find least town right now.

I'd like to hear him claim, but his whole hydro cannon speil gave him a bit of a town read on him, yes.

Interesting how we see that situation completely different. He asks the doctor to claim, wants to here from the tracker before he just says this could be a gambit by scum melon? Like seriously? Before floating that theory he needed all the town PRs to claim? Yeah?
 

Kyanrute

Member
The obvious were Melon or Ouro. Next up were Exma and Pop who lynched after the claim. You yourself were a viable target, but could be framed today with your reaction towards me (which nobody but me hinted at). I was worried of being killed, but I was probably suspicious enough to not be offed. Nin was a non-entity, the safest out of the mentioned yet, but to be the safest I'd probably have targeted Kyan because who would protect that guy?

AM TEARS

:(

But seriously, scum should know this is Kyan playing babby's 1st town game. Why would they kill me if I do not know what to do and, well, have not yet shown that I am that much of a threat to them? If I'd die, that would happen because scum being afraid of unknown.
 

Kyanrute

Member
Thoughts. Nobody died.

1) Doctor Feelgood saved someone.
2) Blocker Blocky blocked the kill.
3) Scum offered a poisoned drink to the Cabot but his bp liver could take it.
4) Redirector Points-at-things redirected the kill to a bp.
5) HYDRO CANON.

No doc has claimed so far. Might be worth it to come out if there is one, to clear the air. Don’t think we have Blocky with us, I don’t see a point not claiming as soon as the day started. If there is a bp, I’d wait until it is at least some of the other alternatives were cleared. If case four, it is heck of a coincidence. Hydro Canon cannot be speculated about without context so now I have to read.

Looking back at melon’s claim, she does not specify her role but I thought at the time she implied that she was a cop. Because this was not clear, I wanted her to clarify. The day ended in a hurry and I wouldn’t be surprised if scum joined the LP train. Pop’s vote post fits the panic-y scum post that reeks of “omgomgomgomg need to get into this vote fuuuuuuck i missed the vote command FUUUUCK”. Both Ouro and exmachina offer themselves as the tracker/watcher targets. If they were scum, they’d know that melon was not one of those roles - thus making these comments rather towny OR some hardcore level scum plays. I’m feeling the 1st more. I did not nor I still agree with Gorlak that a single vote on scum would be enough of a reason to kill Stan, but seeing as things have turned out, his theory might’ve been correct.

Kawl softclaims to counter Hydro Canon. All righty. At this point I’d love to hear claims so I could understand more but claims come if they come.

Gorlak offers evidence against me. I cannot refute it. I was, at least on some level, wrong about LP. But like I said, I did not vote for LP because I wanted as much information as possible, mainly to avoid unclear situations in the future, like the one we are in now. #696, still thinking and reading top 3 scum would be Pop/Ouro/Kawl. Pop because of his d2 vote and the things I said about on day two. Ouro/Kawl because they are avoiding claiming - while avoiding direct claiming protects the PR, it also can offer a safe haven for a scum to hide. Dunno about exmachina and nin, though I believe melon and thus I somewhat believe nin too. I consider the rest town for now. I am super town yesyes did you really think I could make a single post without any sillies ohh nonono.

LP voting for Sorian over Ouro gives Ouro #scumpoints.

soooo

VOTE: Pop-o-matic

If someone has info that can clear things, think about claiming.
 

Kawl_USC

Member
I'm not sure I'm getting the point right. I understand that you think LP/Ouro wouldn't be obvious about stan/one vote because experience. I don't hand wave your thoughts away, I simply disagree. It is quite possible they would tackle it the obvious way because of that experience, I also deem Ouro as the kind of player who could be very blatant, but get away with it... Hell you played Harry Potter and saw Crab.

By saying, "blah blah blah yea okay cool but what's important, is do you think ouro is town" in response to me saying I find LP/ouro hard to swallow, you are disregarding that thought process.

The point of that post and thought process is yes I think that makes ouro more town. You can disagree yes, but don't ask well do you think ouro is town, I've already said as much.
 

Gorlak

Banned
AM TEARS

:(

But seriously, scum should know this is Kyan playing babby's 1st town game. Why would they kill me if I do not know what to do and, well, have not yet shown that I am that much of a threat to them? If I'd die, that would happen because scum being afraid of unknown.

The thought process was about who was the safest kill. No doc would protect you after your shenanigans D1. But good to know that you already have an excuse for not being nightkilled this game :)
 

Gorlak

Banned
By saying, "blah blah blah yea okay cool but what's important, is do you think ouro is town" in response to me saying I find LP/ouro hard to swallow, you are disregarding that thought process.

The point of that post and thought process is yes I think that makes ouro more town. You can disagree yes, but don't ask well do you think ouro is town, I've already said as much.

Wanna start nitpicking about unimportant stuff? You also found LP voting out Sorian instead of Ouro "interesting", that's why I wanted you to clarify how you think about Ouro in the most simplest way.
 

Kyanrute

Member
The thought process was about who was the safest kill. No doc would protect you after your shenanigans D1. But good to know that you already have an excuse for not being nightkilled this game :)

I agree with your logic, I would be a safe kill for scum. But they'd have to consider how that is counterbalanced by what I said.
 

nin1000

Banned
So what are your current reads?

Currently i am inclined to believe for this day that melon is telling the truth.
Of course someone could argue that it is a safe thing to clear such a time bomb like i am.
But again for today i will believe her Cop claim.

Do you believe every claim out there?

lets see the current claim list

1. [m] Gorlak - Vanilla Town
2. [m] Ourobolus - Town, unknown
4. [f] melonrabbit - Town, cop
6. [m] exmachina64 - claims vanilla
7. [m] nin1000 - Town, claims vanilla
9. [m] Pop-O-Matic - ??
10. [m] Kawl_USC - protection / blocker
11. [m] Kyanrute - ??

Since this i a fairly small game i tend to agree that there were only 2 scum players in this roster. With one Ninja gone i think we might have another power scum role in there.
I also think that most town players are indeed just Vanilla Town. I know the following will be a bit contradictory but well lets just say it is in my genes. I do not believe exmachina.


Who would you vote right now?

Exmachina. He still feels kinda off and not really here. He is just flying under the radar like many other players did while being scum. I will go with my gut with this one.

VOTE: exmachina64


What do you think about melon's claim?

as i stated before , for today i will believe her since she cleared me. BUT i will stay suspicious since it can be a good move to "clear" the air with the most controversial player there is in GAFia history.

What's your feeling on Kawl?

Talks a lot and pushes the the conversation forward. I hope to interact with him more though, since i cant put my hands on him ---- Town reading him for the moment.


Anyone standing out?

Kyanrute for trying to vote out PoP. I dont buy his reasoning. It feels that he wants to put in an early vote on him.

Exmachina for flying under the radar.

I will be here the rest of the day ( at work though ) in order to respond to every question asked aswell as going deep into this game.
 

nin1000

Banned
Anything else or just the vote?

For now its just the vote, and my suspicion is only my gut for now. It can change but again i dont like votes with little reason behind them.

Kyan, was it this line of thought of yours

...Pop’s vote post fits the panic-y scum post that reeks of “omgomgomgomg need to get into this vote fuuuuuuck i missed the vote command FUUUUCK”.....

That led you voting for him ? If that is the case can you elaborate a bit more for me to understand why you want him gone.

Not trying to defend him, but i would like to hear a clear reason behind that
 

Kyanrute

Member
For now its just the vote, and my suspicion is only my gut for now. It can change but again i dont like votes with little reason behind them.

Kyan, was it this line of thought of yours

That led you voting for him ? If that is the case can you elaborate a bit more for me to understand why you want him gone.

Not trying to defend him, but i would like to hear a clear reason behind that

The whole thing comes back to the day one nonsense of mine, I should've clarified that. LP and Pop had the mildest reactions to my shenanigans. Their reactions felt safe. There is this from d2, where comment about it. Pop's d2 vote adds to this all. In addition, Pop's posts today so far have been safe.
 

nin1000

Banned
The whole thing comes back to the day one nonsense of mine, I should've clarified that. LP and Pop had the mildest reactions to my shenanigans. Their reactions felt safe. There is this from d2, where comment about it. Pop's d2 vote adds to this all. In addition, Pop's posts today so far have been safe.


Thanks for clearing the air. I was concerned with your vote on him first since we only need 5 to reach a majority. You putting a vote on him without really giving a good reason just felt cheap to me.
 

Kyanrute

Member
Kyanrute how do you feel about Gorlak ?
That guy sure is trying hard

He is. I don't see Gorlak being scum, unless he tracked melon and saw her visiting LP. That is the only thing I can think of. The reasoning, what I disagreed with, was that Stan's vote on LP was the reason behind Stan's death. If scum decided to bus LP because they wanted to get ahead of melon's copping, the post rather fits. The logic is flimsy enough imo to seem like a town thing to do. If melon leads to LP's death, scum Gorlak is on the record for starting the lynch train. If LP is not caught, maybe scum Gorlak can in the future use his "suspicions" towards LP to say safe.

So, that is yet another argument for claims. Ordinary town here.
 

Kawl_USC

Member
Wanna start nitpicking about unimportant stuff? You also found LP voting out Sorian instead of Ouro "interesting", that's why I wanted you to clarify how you think about Ouro in the most simplest way.

Semantic arguments are some of my favorites. It's why I get out of bed to play mafia in the morning.

Yea I found it somewhat interesting. But if it's town/town then just jumping on a wagon and throwing some future shade is always good as scum. Tomato, tomato. Not enough for me to feel that ouro is scummy.
 

Kawl_USC

Member
(T)Im so meta even this acronym?

Would he fuck with us like this?

The mad lad

For any spectators and Tim himself no shit talk on the set up, just theorizing
 
OK. I'm up. Give me a second to go through all this, A-holes.

xUySTrWGa0BIDuS9JC.gif


Gorlak, I genuinely appreciate the effort. I mean that player to player.
 

Ourobolus

Banned
But seriously, scum should know this is Kyan playing babby's 1st town game. Why would they kill me if I do not know what to do and, well, have not yet shown that I am that much of a threat to them? If I'd die, that would happen because scum being afraid of unknown.

while i don't disagree with you, you know you've pulled this shit several times after rolling scum multiple times, right?
 

Kyanrute

Member
while i don't disagree with you, you know you've pulled this shit several times after rolling scum multiple times, right?

I promise this is the last time I pull it off. Next time I'll just be referencing this game and saying that "scum surely read pixar and saw how shit i was, they'll never kill me!"
 
The following are the main hypotheticals that I'm currently considering:

1) Ouro's lying. Since Day 1, Ouro's been the most aggressive player. He began today in a furious haste, seemingly determined to find a lynch target early in the day. Most of us don't really see the need for such urgency because we have a large amount of time left in the day. He could be scum looking to lynch a town PR or possibly a neutral PR that needs something done quickly. That's not outside the realm of possibility given the flavor text.

2) Melon's lying. Ouro raises good points and perhaps Melon is playing an excellent gambit. I'm not an expert Mafia player, but the inconsistencies Ouro has highlighted might be real. If Melon is revealed to be scum, that would make Nin an easy target for the next day.

3) Ouro and Melon are lying. Perhaps both of them are scum trying to establish each other as credible through an intricate series of accusations or perhaps one of them is neutral and each of them are lying about their roles.

4) Some combination of Gorlak, Pop, Nin, and Kyan are scum. Yeah, we know that Melon vouched for Nin, however, he might be a godfather or Melon could be lying. We won't really have a better idea regarding Nin's alignment until either he or Melon die. We need Gorlak, Pop and Kyan here to get better reads on them.

I can't rule out the possibility that someone like Melon might actually be a neutral.

It's unlikely that we'll see more in-depth role claims from Ouro or Kawl today, but I'd like to see that on Day 4.

I'm more open to lynching Ouro than Melon currently because of his behavior so far.

Gorlak, Pop and Kyan are completely invisible currently, which raises suspicions. We might all be town fighting against each other while one or more of them aren't town-aligned.

I invite all trackers, watchers and cops to monitor me tonight to verify that I am Town-aligned/vanilla/not doing anything.

I'll try to make another post in the morning with links to what people have been saying, but it's late and I'm tired.

I mean you're not wrong. Someone is lying in a game of mafia. How do you feel about all the criticism of people calling you distanced or deattached from the game? Do you feel that's fair/warranted?

Hey, I'm awake.

LP's flip made it pretty clear that melon is not a tracker. The thing was her whole behaviour D1 and all the suspicion she harboured against LP totally fit her move to check LP. She said multiple times she feels sth. was off with LP.
Now there was absolutely no need at all to bus LP at this point in the game. I have my doubts about her being town, but she is not scum in my eyes.
This leads me to the reactions to her claim. Ouro, Pop and Exma are the ones to believe her and almost immediatly lynch LP. All three show little doubt about the claim. This makes me feel good about them, especially Pop and Exma.
Scum however would know that melon's claim was bullshit. A ninja can't be tracked. They would hesitate to throw a vote down on LP instantly - like Kyan. He was the only one to post but not vote LP in the short period of time.

The people missing melon's claim were: Kawl, lp, nin and me. At this point the scum suspects for me were nin, Kawl and Kyan. Ouro is still alive even after hinting at doc. I wonder if he assessed swiftly that LP was going down and went in, this

The further down, the scummier:

Melon
Pop | Exma
Nin
Ouro
Kyan
Kawl

I want to hear Kawl's reasoning for voting me yesterday. You did so without any explanation immediatly after I voted LP.

Kyan gets an extra mention for not suggesting to look into LP as Stan's vote but to look at the Stan voters.

I did express concerns over LP over the day. I'm no sure why everyone has forgotten that in hindsight of me claiming. As I expressed earlier, I found his behavior similar to when we played Pokemon together and he flew under the radar as scum.

I agree with your end of day observations, I also fond exmachina comment about how we had reached majority a little strange.

If Kawl is the doc he can probably semi confirm another town player. We miss your N1 target and reasoning btw.

I'd also like to hear from melon why she went after nin of all people.

I want Ouro to claim here and now, you consistently ask for PR to reveal but keep yourself out of it.

I'm vanilla town.

I choose nin for 2 reasons, he felt highly off to me and his and LP prod vote exchange really stood out to me as odd and I wanted to see if that was a light bus. I also felt like it wouldn't be a waste to check nin, as his controversial nature would likely keep him alive another day or so and given he's often a distraction.
 
Eh, that was odd? Why would you assume a blocker anyway?

I donno. In my (limited) experience usual there is a blocker in small teams. I thought about what might happening going into the night phrase, after LP flipped ninja--since scum knew I couldn't have tracked him. I thought either myself or (given Ouro's vague statement) he'd be blocked or they would choose to do nothing in fear there actually was a tracker/watcher.
 

Ourobolus

Banned
I donno. In my (limited) experience usual there is a blocker in small teams. I thought about what might happening going into the night phrase, after LP flipped ninja--since scum knew I couldn't have tracked him. I thought either myself or (given Ouro's vague statement) he'd be blocked or they would choose to do nothing in fear there actually was a tracker/watcher.

If we have a cop, a doctor, and presumably a tracker, I don't think we have any other PRs.
 
I'm of two minds about this Ouro v Melon showdown.

I like the out-of-the-box thinking (in theory) and credit afforded me for claiming I'm capable of such a scum gambit--although you have spent a lot of the game claiming the opposite. I also don't like the hesitation and "wait for it" shenanigans only to just be vanilla.

I also really, really don't like this:

I would recommend tracking whomever you want melon. You won't have to worry.

I do you know I wouldn't? Were you baiting scum? Me? For someone that was so reluctant to jump on the LP train it strikes me as a weird move.

I don't know, man.

I just don't know.
 
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