Reuters: "Most Americans back gun lobby, right to use deadly force"

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Bollocks said:
When is your life genuinely in danger? Where do you draw the line? Honest question.
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When I have no ability to escape and have a good reason to believe someone intends to attempt to grievously injure me or kill me. That most likely means (1) an unexpected confrontation in dark place or otherwise at night, (2) being approached by someone with weapon of some kind,or (3) a group/mob coming at me while acting or talking in a clearly threatening way (say, racial epithets and talk of hurting me). If I have the opportunity to run I will. Or, if a safe opportunity to announce that I have a firearm (with the intention to get them to leave me alone, and assuming 15-20ft between us) presents itself I'll use it and hope the situation diffuses.

A plain old fight is just a fight unless I know or have damn good reason to believe the person looking to attack me plans do more than just "win" a "fight". If there are reasons to believe intentions are deeper and a possibility of death to me or someone else, I'll defend myself or someone else appropriately. with my concealed firearm if I feel I have no choice.

It's why I carry a Springfield XD40 subcompact semiautomatic. Much like an airbag, I expect to never need to use it. but if I do, all systems go for preservation of my life. I'll never start a life-or-death confrontation, but I for damn sure will finish one.
 
zchen said:
My coworker's husband was killed in a home invasion/robbery two years ago. That changed my entire thought process on the necessity of gun ownership.
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So he was killed because he tried to reach to his handgun? Or because he didn't have one?

It's sad that someone lost his life but chances are that if he was armed he would end up dead the same way.
 
Manos: The Hans of Fate said:
Yeah of automatic weapons. Lol

Guns already have background checks...much like laws on automatic weapons.
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Not all states require background checks and it's very easy for a convicted felon to just go to a private seller or use a straw buyer to get one. No, there is no real system keeping guns out of criminals hands.

The logical step is to make a federal law requiring background checks and putting the ownership records in a computerized database (both are things the NRA opposes).

And if a private seller wants to sell his gun or give it as a gift, then he should pay a federally certified middleman a flat "transfer" fee of like $10 or something to process the paperwork in doing a background check on the new owner. This allows the resale market to still be active and keeps gun ownership records up to date.

These are reasonable ideas that will never prevent a law abiding citizen from getting a gun. The NRA is not worth a fuck if they oppose any and all gun regulation in the real world.
 
I agree with the right to use force. If someone is coming in your house trying to burglarize you and you have no fucking idea what this person's motivations are, I have no problem, and would even encourage terminal force.

Of course, the big thing in the news now is you know what and what I'm saying doesn't apply to confronting an innocent person to provoke an incident and then shooting them as "defense." That's murder, not a right to use deadly force.
 
evilromero said:
Anti-gun gaf makes me laugh. I'd rather be with one than without one.
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I would rather deny you one than give you one.

The problem here is not even about America's opinion on gun control, it's about the average American having no idea just how low a level of gun control the NRA actually wants yet still thinking the NRA is a swell organization.

About 60% of Americans want more gun control, but then Americans also have a generally favorable view of the NRA which is at an extreme even most gun owners. If you like guns, then you don't want criminals to give them a bad image which means you would support at modest level of gun control.

This poll just shows how poor America's understanding of lobbies is.
 
Out-right prohibition of a good or service has never worked in society, and will never work. Criminals will always find a way around the law if they really want something. Gun crime in the US is a strictly socio-economic issue. Poor and uneducated people are more likely to shoot someone because they are fucking stupid and don't know any better.
 
I mean, I support a persons right to defend themselves. But there are a fuck ton of caveats I have. I own a gun myself for home defense.

I support conceal carry in theory. But in theory it would ONLY be used for when your life is truly in danger from a blatant attack such as a robbery, carjacking..etc. Not for ending confrontations that the carrier started.

I'm in my home now and there's a loaded weapon in the next room. If shit goes down I want the ability to defend myself and my lady.

Sorry, I'm not going to ask a robber to fill out a proof-of-intent form in triplicate before I drop him. If someone trying to rob my place and I see them I'm going to shoot them.
 
Al-ibn Kermit said:
I would rather deny you one than give you one.

The problem here is not even about America's opinion on gun control, it's about the average American having no idea just how low a level of gun control the NRA actually wants yet still thinking the NRA is a swell organization.

About 60% of Americans want more gun control, but then Americans also have a generally favorable view of the NRA which is at an extreme even most gun owners. If you like guns, then you don't want criminals to give them a bad image which means you would support at modest level of gun control.

This poll just shows how poor America's understanding of lobbies is.
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I don't mind *SMART* gun control. But the reactionary soccer-mom legislation of "BAN ALL THE BAD THINGS!" doesn't work and only serves to make obtaining a weapon harder for law-abiding citizens while doing nothing to keep them out of the hands of those that we don't want walking around with guns.

The fact that the government in the US went around and illegally confiscated legal gun owners weapons in New Orleans after Katrina tells me all I need to know about my "rights" when shit hits the fan...
 
shadyspace said:
When someone I do not know has entered my home without my permission.
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Should be fine if you see someone else getting attacked too. If I see a woman getting raped or something and I have a gun, I should be well within my legal rights to blow the dude's head off.
 
I've been considering getting a gun for a while now. Maybe a revolver. Guns are a lot of fun to shoot (at ranges and such), and it's nice to have one around for protection as well.

My wife owns several guns, but we haven't brought them out to California yet.
 
Mammoth Jones said:
I don't mind *SMART* gun control. But the reactionary soccer-mom legislation of "BAN ALL THE BAD THINGS!" doesn't work and only serves to make obtaining a weapon harder for law-abiding citizens while doing nothing to keep them out of the hands of those that we don't want walking around with guns.
The fact that the government in the US went around and illegally confiscated legal gun owners weapons in New Orleans after Katrina tells me all I need to know about my "rights" when shit hits the fan...
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Yes there are smart gun control options that I would argue make everybody happy and are also necessary if you don't want guns to have a net negative affect on society.

But my point is that even if Americans understand what needs to be done, they apparently do not understand what the lobbies want to do. That's also a huge problem. And not just because it gives us threads with weird titles.
 
Looks like thieves in the us don't give a damn if someone is at home or not. I feel like they have the courtesy to monitor your place and wait till you are gone where I come from.
Reading this thread, and all the other gun-threads, I feel very lucky living in a place where I'm feeling save all the time.
 
No offence to anyone in this thread, but as an outsider the American view of guns is so weird. This is all so alien to me. I can't comprehend ever having a casual conversation about my favourite type of weapon. I don't think I've ever seen one in real life that wasn't carried by a police officer.
 
Guns.. the whole concept of guns just sounds so ancient.

But i can understand you want to be abe to defend yourself from criminals who DO have acces to guns most of the time. However, this will often lead to all kinds of unwanted drama since life ISN'T a fucking movie.
 
Always-honest said:
Guns.. the whole concept of guns just sounds so ancient.

But i can understand you want to be abe to defend yourself from criminals who DO have acces to guns most of the time. However, this will often lead to all kinds of unwanted drama since life ISN'T a fucking movie.
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I can understand it in America where it's basically a race to the bottom because everyone has one. It just feels so foreign, talking about guns so casually. There was a massive buy back of guns in this country after the Port Arthur massacre and - aside from in some rural areas - there is quite an anti-gun sentiment.
 
It is hard for a non-American to judge, if I was living in the US I may very well feel like I needed one given the prevalence of gun ownership. I'm not being facetious, I am thankful it isn't really a reality where I live.
 
The lack of gun control in the US is ridiculous. Owning a gun should be monitored much more by the police including background checks. Don't throw people into jail if they break gun laws. Just take illegally owned guns and fine the heck out of them.
 
The American gun culture is seriously messed up. We have one of the highest crime rates in the world, despite everyone being armed to the teeth. It's like Americans think the country is like the wild west of something, where the only law that matters is where the bullet lands.

I guess after Obama got elected, gun sales went through the roof. I wonder what happens when he wins re-election this year. The country might just go off the rails.
 
Manos: The Hans of Fate said:
It is a bias that would have to be accounted for, I agree. I do think that with these surveys they contact people as opposed to vote on this issue polls sitting on a website. Same with a traditional phone polling I suspect.
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One would hope because voluntary response samples completely undermine the randomness that is the crux of statistical inference.
 
Measley said:
The American gun culture is seriously messed up. We have one of the highest crime rates in the world, despite everyone being armed to the teeth. It's like Americans think the country is like the wild west of something, where the only law that matters is where the bullet lands.

I guess after Obama got elected, gun sales went through the roof. I wonder what happens when he wins re-election this year. The country might just go off the rails.
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The rural crime rates are much lower than the American average
It's the crime-infested cities raise the average
Compare Vermont with Illinois for example
One has Detroit in it and one doesnt
Or compare a group of random counties in upper new york State equal in population to NYC
You'll find the group has the lower rate, even with the populations being equal to the city.
 
Mammoth Jones said:
I don't mind *SMART* gun control. But the reactionary soccer-mom legislation of "BAN ALL THE BAD THINGS!" doesn't work and only serves to make obtaining a weapon harder for law-abiding citizens while doing nothing to keep them out of the hands of those that we don't want walking around with guns.
Click to expand...

The problem is that gun control just doesn't work. Look at the joke of the 1994 AWB, which had no effect on crime rates.

James Earl Jones it best.
"The world is filled with violence. Because criminals carry guns, we decent law-abiding citizens should also have guns. Otherwise they will win and the decent people will lose."
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slopeslider said:
The rural crime rates are much lower than the American average
It's the crime-infested cities raise the average
Compare Vermont with Illinois for example
One has Detroit in it and one doesnt
Or compare a group of random counties in upper new york State equal in population to NYC
You'll find the group has the lower rate, even with the populations being equal to the city.
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I wasn't comparing rural to urban, I'm talking about the country as a whole.

And obviously cities with millions of people in them are going to have higher crime than towns with fewer than 50k people spread out over a larger area.
 
Always-honest said:
Guns.. the whole concept of guns just sounds so ancient.

But i can understand you want to be abe to defend yourself from criminals who DO have acces to guns most of the time. However, this will often lead to all kinds of unwanted drama since life ISN'T a fucking movie.
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A lot of people buy them for home-defense but a lot of people also buy them for recreational purposes or hunting.
It isn't like everyone thinks they are in an action movie just because they want a gun.
 
Manos: The Hans of Fate said:
The problem is that gun control just doesn't work. Look at the joke of the 1994 AWB, which had no effect on crime rates.

James Earl Jones it best.
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Nobody expects gun control to prevent all criminals from ever getting a gun. But the government should have the ability to easily track down owners of murder weapons. That technically falls under the banner of increasing gun control but it doesn't actually prevent anyone without felonies from getting a gun.

You made the thread title sound like most regular Americans support, or are even aware of, the radical positions the NRA defends. But if the majority support more gun control, then that's obviously stretching the truth.
 
Manos: The Hans of Fate said:
James Earl Jones it best.

"The world is filled with violence. Because criminals carry guns, we decent law-abiding citizens should also have guns. Otherwise they will win and the decent people will lose."
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that quote is just ridiculous to me. i've managed to live almost three decades now without ever seeing a single criminal with a gun, and i don't think i've never even heard of any stories from anyone i know ever seeing a criminal with a gun. it's pretty damn rare... so how exactly is it such a huge problem then, that everyone should be armed? just ridiculous to me. to have everyone armed would not even negate the problem of armed criminals entirely (not even close lol), it would just bring in a whole mess of new problems... the cons would far outweigh the pros. a person could only want such a society if he had a fetish for guns or something, and valued that fetish more than a more safe society, IMO.

i understand it depends on where you live (i'd want a gun too if i saw criminals every day), but it IS obviously possible to have a functioning civil society where guns aren't part of the culture. that should be the goal... right?
 
America. Such a lost cause.

Seriously though, if you want guns, you need to learn to be responsible with them. If you don't want to do that, then why should you have dangerous tools whose primary function is the incapacitation/killing of other humans??
 
Manos: The Hans of Fate said:
The problem is that gun control just doesn't work. Look at the joke of the 1994 AWB, which had no effect on crime rates.

James Earl Jones it best.
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Yeah, because you would expect a major effect from a law banning assault rifles when criminals use pistols, which are easily concealed.

Question though, do you think decent people have lost in, say, Poland? It has the lowest gun ownership in the EU, and despite being far, far poorer than the United States, it has a significantly lower homicide rate. Or what about Slovenia?
 
Zaptruder said:
America. Such a lost cause.

Seriously though, if you want guns, you need to learn to be responsible with them. If you don't want to do that, then why should you have dangerous tools whose primary function is the incapacitation/killing of other humans??
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Oh is that what we need? Thanks for the tips, and the advance approval for when we get our act up to your standards.
 
Al-ibn Kermit said:
Nobody expects gun control to prevent all criminals from ever getting a gun. But the government should have the ability to easily track down owners of murder weapons. That technically falls under the banner of increasing gun control but it doesn't actually prevent anyone without felonies from getting a gun.
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Except it doesn't work. The Canadian Long Gun Registry for example, which was finally scrapped, despite Quebec trying to keep data, was judged a massive failure that never helped solve any crimes. Also most criminals do not legally acquire their guns. The government has no reason to know what guns I own.

You made the thread title sound like most regular Americans support, or are even aware of, the radical positions the NRA defends. But if the majority support more gun control, then that's obviously stretching the truth.
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Except the only gun control mentioned that they support is related to Automatic weapons, which are heavily, heavily, regulated, showing that gun control desired by most is already in place.
 
Kabouter said:
Yeah, because you would expect a major effect from a law banning assault rifles when criminals use pistols, which are easily concealed.

Question though, do you think decent people have lost in, say, Poland? It has the lowest gun ownership in the EU, and despite being far, far poorer than the United States, it has a significantly lower homicide rate. Or what about Slovenia?
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yeah, this is what im wondering. there are places on this planet where guns are not a huge part of the culture, yet criminals are not running rampant.. so, why cant America look at these places and take some lessons?
 
astroturfing said:
that quote is just ridiculous to me. i've managed to live almost three decades now without ever seeing a single criminal with a gun, and i don't think i've never even heard of any stories from anyone i know ever seeing a criminal with a gun. it's pretty damn rare... so how exactly is it such a huge problem then, that everyone should be armed? just ridiculous to me. to have everyone armed would not even negate the problem of armed criminals entirely (not even close lol), it would just bring in a whole mess of new problems... the cons would far outweigh the pros. a person could only want such a society if he had a fetish for guns or something, and valued that fetish more than a more safe society, IMO.

i understand it depends on where you live (i'd want a gun too if i saw criminals every day), but it IS obviously possible to have a functioning civil society where guns aren't part of the culture. that should be the goal... right?
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Are you saying that you'll never see the criminal coming or that you just haven't seen a criminal use a gun?

On another note statistically people shoot their family members more than criminals so that's another thing to think about.
 
Who the fuck loves guns? Are they insane? Does it make people feel less like men if they don't have one? Is that why people love them?

Sorry I don't mean anything personal if you do love guns. I just don't get it.
 
astroturfing said:
yeah, this is what im wondering. there are places on this planet where guns are not a huge part of the culture, yet criminals are not running rampant.. so, why cant America look at these places and take some lessons?
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Well, I'm not saying those policies would be right for America. What I'm saying is that the facts contradict the claim that civilian gun ownership is necessary to reduce crime. Widespread gun ownership might be right for the US, but clearly, other nations are doing fine without it, and aren't experiencing this situation where 'decent people lose'.
 
Kabouter said:
Yeah, because you would expect a major effect from a law banning assault rifles when criminals use pistols, which are easily concealed.
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That didn't stop anti-gun nuts and the bills supporters from proclaiming it would, and that this was just the first step. It shows how they don't even fundamentally understand how guns work even.

Question though, do you think decent people have lost in, say, Poland? It has the lowest gun ownership in the EU, and despite being far, far poorer than the United States, it has a significantly lower homicide rate. Or what about Slovenia?
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If you're a member of a minority you have lost to means to protect yourself (say as a Muslim or a Jew). I mean look what happened in France recently. I wouldn't want my daughters last images to be a guy with a ski camera recording in HD stepping on her hair and shooting her.
 
synt4x said:
Who the fuck loves guns? Are they insane? Does it make people feel less like men if they don't have one? Is that why people love them?

Sorry I don't mean anything personal if you do love guns. I just don't get it.
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Ballistics are a lot of fun.
Exploding a milk jug from 100 yards away is just a hell of a good time.
 
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