But they showed she can fight. And they showed she can fight with a weapon. And then they showed she had a powerful connection to the Force. And then they showed that combining those three things let her overpower a man who was weakened, distracted, ordered to take her alive, hadn't completed his training and, judging by the look on his face after she closes her eyes and lets the Force take control, scared shitless.
Yeah, in a 10 second clip.
Where she struggles and gets punched in the face.
Against 2 unarmed men.
We don't see her in physical combat till the last confrontation.
Where she overcomes a trained force/light saber user with her force.
Which she had only used it for the first time 90 minutes into the movie.
You see why people think it felt out of place and rushed?
Neither of those examples is "wrong". There is nothing wrong with Luke or Rey being able to do impossible things through the Force. That is the entire point of the Force.
Mary Sues are hardly ever defined by one trait. It's determined by scale. Things add up, and some things have much greater weight to them than others. In Star Wars that's the Force and lightsabers.
The first Star Wars didn't end with a lightsaber duel, it ended with a dogfight. The idea that the Battle of Yavin has less weight for A New Hope than Kylo Ren and Rey dueling had for The Force Awakens is ridiculous nonsense, because in both cases it's the freaking climax of the movie.
I dunno man, I just don't get it. The fight wit Finn was filled with more tension precisely because we knew he was outmatched and were thus filled with anxiety and tension as we tried to figure if he would manage to get out of the fight. Rey's fight managed to be exciting right until the end when all the tension was broken and logic was thrown out the window in favor of "it was The Force."
So your complaint is that the tension broke at the climax of the film? That's what a climax is. Should they have just kept the tension going right through the credits?
If you have a problem with The Force being a primary actor, then maybe the movie series about the space wizards isn't for you.
The only thing I'm trying to figure out about Rey is her being a pilot. I feel like there's a line in the movie similar to 'T-16 womp rats Beggar's Canyon' that I missed.
She's mechanically inclined and works for a guy who could need a pilot. Also she says that she's a pilot. In the novelization and Rey's Survival Guide she has a flight sim in her AT-AT that she knows inside and out, but that didn't make the final cut.
Again, this is the Star Wars equivalent of "I shot cans back on my farm".
Luke has zero experience flying a starfighter. He has zero experience serving as part of a squadron. He has zero experience flying in space. And if you think him shooting womp-rats in a T-16 qualifies him as having as much training in dogfights as the other pilots of Red Squadron, then you should have no problem accepting that Rey whacking three street thugs with a stick means she has as much training in lightsaber combat as Kylo Ren.
Him making that impossible shot while in a narrow trench, flying at super high speed, while being pursued by TIE Fighters and shot by laser cannons, without a functioning stabilizer on the X-Wing, without the help of a targeting computer, and in a ship he had never been in before is just silly. It's a massive step up from what he's used to doing.
Old Ben: ...he was the best Star pilot in the galaxy and a cunning warrior, I understand you've become quite a good pilot yourself.
Han Solo: ...Ten thousand all in advance Luke: Ten thousand!? We can almost buy a whole ship for that. Han Solo: But, whose going to fly it, kid? You? Luke: You bet I could, I'm not such a bad pilot myself. We don't have to sit here and listen to this.
Luke: I used to bullseye womp rats in my T-16 back home, they're not much bigger than that.
Red Leader: (Speaking to Luke) Are you sure you can handle this ship? Biggs: Sir, Luke is the best bush pilot in the Outer Rim territories. Red Leader: You'll do alright.
"You may be the hottest bush pilot this side of Mos Eisley, Luke, but those little skyhoppers can be dangerous. They move awfully fast for tropospheric craft—faster than they need to. Keep playing engine jockey with one and someday, whammo! You're going to be nothing more than a dark spot on the damp side of a canyon wall."
―Biggs Darklighter to Luke Skywalker
Civilian versions of the skyhopper were armed with pneumatic cannons, and were equipped with targeting lasers though many law-enforcement agencies and planetary militaries throughout the galaxy utilized modified T-16s due to their overall good performance; however, because it was armed with only a single mounted repeating blaster, it was often overlooked by the military.
Even so, these airspeeders were often used as training vehicles by the Rebel Alliance, due to the fact that their flight controls were similar to those of X-wings.
So, are we really going to compare the repeated pounding into our head by the film that Luke is an ace pilot and his feats during the Death Star run with the idea that Rey is a trained staff fighter because we saw a brief 5 seconds of her beating to unarmed thugs with a stick and thus can hold her own against a trained Dark Jedi?
Neither of those examples is "wrong". There is nothing wrong with Luke or Rey being able to do impossible things through the Force. That is the entire point of the Force.
Your argument was that if Luke was a Gary Stu that it should be okay for Rey to be a Mary Sue.
I strongly disagree with that.
The Force works in mysterious ways but we have examples of established parameters, requirements and internal logic of the Star Wars universe. Rey's absurd proficiency with with the Force and lightsabers violate all of those.
The rest is just pure talent and any suggestion otherwise is not only pure conjecture but would outright suck if it were true.
I am fine with Luke being a talented pilot.
I am fine with Rey being a talented pilot, mechanic and all around wonderful person.
I am not fine with her being good at using the Force and using lightsabers without training. Nor would I have been if it were Luke.
The first Star Wars didn't end with a lightsaber duel, it ended with a dogfight. The idea that the Battle of Yavin has less weight for A New Hope than Kylo Ren and Rey dueling had for The Force Awakens is ridiculous nonsense, because in both cases it's the freaking climax of the movie.
She's mechanically inclined and works for a guy who could need a pilot. Also she says that she's a pilot. In the novelization and Rey's Survival Guide she has a flight sim in her AT-AT that she knows inside and out, but that didn't make the final cut.
I figured the first part, and I'm not fussed that it wasn't explained. I guess she flew quadjumpers for Simon Pegg.
I would have liked to have seen the flight sim bit. It would have added something to Rey's character and it would have a visual shorthand to explain her being a pilot. Also, does she play Coruscant Freight Transport Simulator 67BBY as well?
Dark Jedi trained under Skywalker and apprenticed to some dark master, you mean. You're so disingenuous it's really impressive. There are no stakes in this argument and I wonder sometimes if this dishonesty is something people really believe or if they just feel like whatever position they've taken has to be absolutely perfect and blameless. Anyway, nothing really to be gained arguing popcorn flicks against some agenda unrelated to storytelling.
Anakin was one of the greatest pilots in the universe. That particular skill passed down to Luke who spent a lot of his time piloting his ship on Tatooine.
I'd say him being as good if not outright better than Poe Dameron or Wedge Antilles isn't much of a stretch at all.
So, you've discounted what Obi-Wan says even though he himself is a trained pilot and just got done talking about how good Anakin was and then immediately comparing Luke to him.
You ignore Luke's own admission that he's pretty good.
You ignore Biggs Darklighter telling Red goddamn Leader that he's the best pilot in the Outer Rim territories after Red Leader SPECIFICALLY asks Luke if he's capable of handling an X-Wing.
This clip of her fighting isn't enough to prove she has fighting skills, but Luke saying "I've shot rats back home" is okay to show he could totally make that Death Star shot with his eyes closed.
Anakin and Luke had their hands cut off. Obviously, they were both just terrible fighters. Everyone knows you're only a great fighter if you can't be touched. It adds more tension.
Anakin and Luke were eventually two unarmed men. Get it?
But seriously, since when does their level of armament prove or disprove her skill? If you have a gun and I sucker punch you before you shoot me in the face, it doesn't prove you're not an expert marksman.
That we know of. Maybe it had been slightly guiding her the entire way. We don't really know how the Force works, because it's not a real thing, and kinda tends to work however screenwriters need it to work at any given time.
Not any more than I see how Luke shouldn't have been able to block laser blasts while blind two minutes after first turning on a lightsaber because an old guy said "trust your feelings."
But that's kinda the point. This shit has never made sense. But somehow that's only an issue now.
So, are we really going to compare the repeated pounding into our head by the film that Luke is an ace pilot and his feats during the Death Star run with the idea that Rey is a trained staff fighter because we saw a brief 5 seconds of her beating to unarmed thugs with a stick and thus can hold her own against a trained Dark Jedi?
If you are willing to say that cut scenes and books are viable sources than this is pretty much over. There is a good amount of stuff showing that Rey knew how to fly and knew how to take care of herself.
Dark Jedi trained under Skywalker and apprenticed to some dark master, you mean. You're so disingenuous it's really impressive. There are no stakes in this argument and I wonder sometimes if this dishonesty is something people really believe or if they just feel like whatever position they've taken has to be absolutely perfect and blameless. Anyway, nothing really to be gained arguing popcorn flicks against some agenda unrelated to storytelling.
Dark Jedi trained under Skywalker and apprenticed to some dark master, you mean. You're so disingenuous it's really impressive. There are no stakes in this argument and I wonder sometimes if this dishonesty is something people really believe or if they just feel like whatever position they've taken has to be absolutely perfect and blameless. Anyway, nothing really to be gained arguing popcorn flicks against some agenda unrelated to storytelling.
Oh man, I've yet to meet someone who has a stake in this issue purely from a storytelling standpoint at first. It always, always starts with "Rey shouldn't have beaten Kylo," and only that. From there we get into story details and justifications.
Everyone has an agenda, even if it's a desperate struggle to have no agenda. That's just what being connected to thousands, if not millions of people in an emerging socially-aware culture entails.
Reading the back and forth here is amusing, its incredible the depths both side goes to discredit the others argument. I think at this point you guys should just pack it up because its pretty clear no one on either side intends to budge.
If you are willing to say that cut scenes and books are viable sources than this is pretty much over. There is a good amount of stuff showing that Rey knew how to fly and knew how to take care of herself.
I'm not, but since people are including personal suppositions and outside knowledge to justify Rey's shenanigans I thought I'd throw them in as well. The actual quotes and scenes in the actual movie do more than enough to state over and over that Luke is a hotshot pilot.
Anakin and Luke were eventually two unarmed men. Get it?
But seriously, since when does their level of armament prove or disprove her skill? If you have a gun and I sucker punch you before you shoot me in the face, it doesn't prove you're not an expert marksman.
It neither proves nor disproves that said hypothetical person is an expert marksman if we've never seen them show off any feats of marksmanship nor heard tales of their expert marksmanship.
So, you've discounted what Obi-Wan says even though he himself is a trained pilot and just got done talking about how good Anakin was and then immediately comparing Luke to him.
You ignore Luke's own admission that he's pretty good.
It's funny you bring up that scene of Luke bragging. The setup there is that Han gives a ridiculous price, Luke says they could buy a ship for cheaper, and Han Solo asks him "But who's gonna fly it? You?" When Luke says he could, Obi-Wan pays Han anyway.
If Obi-Wan thinks Luke is the bestest pilot ever, why didn't he just buy a ship?
Turns out "You're a good pilot" after watching Luke shoot vermin with a civilian vehicle is not some huge endorsement.
You ignore Biggs Darklighter telling Red goddamn Leader that he's the best pilot in the Outer Rim territories after Red Leader SPECIFICALLY asks Luke if he's capable of handling an X-Wing.
Yes, because Luke is his buddy and Biggs is happy to fly alongside him again. It's not exactly an unbiased endorsement, especially when again, Biggs has never flown with Luke in a combat situation.
Well yes, the shit you quoted is on the Legends page of Wookiepedia.
Trying to establish Luke as some super-skilled X-Wing ace before he has even flown in combat misses the entire point of Star Wars. It's about a nobody farmboy living in the middle of nowhere being able to live out his dreams and become a hero through a power greater than him.
Reading the back and forth here is amusing, its incredible the depths both side goes to discredit the others argument. I think at this point you guys should just pack it up because its pretty clear no one on either side intends to budge.
That's Funny though BUT the OT prove that Rey is OP as hell, even if you considered Rey as a talented warrior and Luke as someone who is not as talented, Rey progression doesn't make sense, every one knows that.
She's not really a real Mary sue but she came really really close.
That's Funny though BUT the OT prove that Rey is OP as hell, even if you considered Rey as a talented warrior and Luke as someone who is not as talented, Rey progression doesn't make sense, every one knows that.
That's Funny though BUT the OT prove that Rey is OP as hell, even if you considered Rey as a talented warrior and Luke as someone who is not as talented, Rey progression doesn't make sense, every one knows that.
She's not really a real Mary sue but she came really really close.
See personally I don't disagree I too was like how the fuck did Ren lose to a rookie? at the end but then I remembered this was a movie and that these shit tends to happen in movies and I shrugged and went along with it. Never would imagine such a huge divide erupting over it on the internet though. Though I suppose I don't take the writing as seriously in these movies as most.
See personally I don't disagree I too was like how the fuck did Ren lose to a rookie? at the end but then I remembered this was a movie and that these shit tends to happen in movies and I shrugged and went along with it. Never would imagine such a huge divide erupting over it on the internet though. Though I suppose I don't take the writing as seriously in these movies as most.
For me both sides are right, Rey was shown early as a girl who can manage herself in survival, fights, as a pilot etc, she's probably using the force like anakin did when he was a child, she's a genius at everything and I don't have a problem with that, I know some people who have everything too, money, beauty, girls, jobs etc... it's just how it is...
on the other side, it would have been better without the escape scene when she mind fuck Daniel Craig even if Bond can't resist women...
It's funny you bring up that scene of Luke bragging. The setup there is that Han gives a ridiculous price, Luke says they could buy a ship for cheaper, and Han Solo asks him "But who's gonna fly it? You?" When Luke says he could, Obi-Wan pays Han anyway.
If Obi-Wan thinks Luke is the bestest pilot ever, why didn't he just buy a ship?
Turns out "You're a good pilot" after watching Luke shoot vermin with a civilian vehicle is not some huge endorsement.
Yes, because Luke is his buddy and Biggs is happy to fly alongside him again. It's not exactly an unbiased endorsement, especially when again, Biggs has never flown with Luke in a combat situation.
Well yes, the shit you quoted is on the Legends page of Wookiepedia.
Well, I'm kind of done arguing now since you refuse to actually accept the fact that a ANH repeatedly tells you over and over than Luke is a hotshot plot. You are going to extreme lengths to discount what the actual characters are stating and imputing some hidden motives to their statements. Why would Biggs lie to Red Leader, his superior officer, just so he could have Luke fly with him in a situation where you need to be confident that your wingmen can have your back? Also, the reason Obi-Wan didn't just buy a ship was because they didn't just need a pilot they specifically needed a smuggler with a fast ship who could evade any Imperial entanglements.
This clip of her fighting isn't enough to prove she has fighting skills, but Luke saying "I've shot rats back home" is okay to show he could totally make that Death Star shot with his eyes closed.
You showed a gif of Rey fighting two random jobbers on Jakku that don't even look like particularly impressive fighters and compare that with Luke wanting to be an Imperial pilot who claims he's pretty good, whose skills are once again confirmed by another character that knows him to impune the fact he can pilot a starship with similar controls to his own ship on Tatooine.
Anakin and Luke had their hands cut off. Obviously, they were both just terrible fighters. Everyone knows you're only a great fighter if you can't be touched. It adds more tension.
Anakin and Luke were eventually two unarmed men. Get it?
But seriously, since when does their level of armament prove or disprove her skill? If you have a gun and I sucker punch you before you shoot me in the face, it doesn't prove you're not an expert marksman.
Your evidence establishes she can has the necessary fighting skills to deal with Jakku jobbers, not with an experienced Force user and duelist trained by Luke Skywalker and Snoke, the apparent big bad of the trilogy.
Ren's training under Snoke isn't complete. That doesn't mean he wasn't still lightyears ahead of Rey in the Force and lightsabers considering he is 30 years old and has been doing it his entire life whereas Rey had just begun to learn what the Force was.
Never mind the fact Ren had her conered despite his injuries, please point out where Ren was distracted or scared.
That we know of. Maybe it had been slightly guiding her the entire way. We don't really know how the Force works, because it's not a real thing, and kinda tends to work however screenwriters need it to work at any given time.
Not any more than I see how Luke shouldn't have been able to block laser blasts while blind two minutes after first turning on a lightsaber because an old guy said "trust your feelings."
That's Funny though BUT the OT prove that Rey is OP as hell, even if you considered Rey as a talented warrior and Luke as someone who is not as talented, Rey progression doesn't make sense, every one knows that.
She's not really a real Mary sue but she came really really close.
She isn't close to being a Mary Sue at all. She fits into the Mythological archetypes that Star Wars is built on. Rey's character and progression make perfect sense within that framework.
It's what Star Wars has always been. If people don't like that, that's fine, everything isn't for everybody.
Luke has zero experience flying a starfighter. He has zero experience serving as part of a squadron. He has zero experience flying in space. And if you think him shooting womp-rats in a T-16 qualifies him as having as much training in dogfights as the other pilots of Red Squadron, then you should have no problem accepting that Rey whacking three street thugs with a stick means she has as much training in lightsaber combat as Kylo Ren.
Just so you know, Luke-haters, that the T-16 Luke was a master at was used as an x-wing training ship by the Rebels because the T-16's targeting systems and flights controls were so similar to an x-wing's. He wasn't going in without any relevant experience.
Well, I'm kind of done arguing now since you refuse to actually accept the fact that a ANH repeatedly tells you over and over than Luke is a hotshot plot. You are going to extreme lengths to discount what the actual characters are stating and imputing some hidden motives to their statements. Why would Biggs lie to Red Leader, his superior officer, just so he could have Luke fly with him in a situation where you need to be confident that your wingmen can have your back? Also, the reason Obi-Wan didn't just buy a ship was because they didn't just need a pilot they specifically needed a smuggler who could evade any Imperial entanglements.
Luke basically did what Randy Quaid did in "Independence Day". Go from flying a crop duster to a F-16 with little training. And the Rebels were just as desperate for pilots for the mission as the Military was in Independence day. They'd take anyone.
Dark Jedi trained under Skywalker and apprenticed to some dark master, you mean. You're so disingenuous it's really impressive. There are no stakes in this argument and I wonder sometimes if this dishonesty is something people really believe or if they just feel like whatever position they've taken has to be absolutely perfect and blameless. Anyway, nothing really to be gained arguing popcorn flicks against some agenda unrelated to storytelling.
Also, despite your lack of belief and hand waving, he was scared both times Rey demonstrated any ability with the Force.
Here:
Just look at the way his face changes after she opens her eyes. You can hear him think "Oh fuck..."
And with this one:
He literally whimpers out "no" after she reads his thoughts and says he's scared he'll never be like Vader.
But whatever. I'm just being dishonest. That must be it, right? Because I don't agree with you, I'm being disingenuous and dishonest. He's a total badass Dark Jedi who would never be scared, despite evidence to the contrary. Because you say so.
I just saw the movie earlier today and enjoyed everything but the actor that play Hano Solo's son, if ever there is a conversation about actors in the wrong roles he goes up to the top.
Just so you know, Luke-haters, that the T-16 Luke was a master at was used as an x-wing training ship by the Rebels because the T-16's targeting systems and flights controls were so similar to an x-wing's. He wasn't going in without any relevant experience.
Also, the reason Obi-Wan didn't just buy a ship was because they didn't just need a pilot they specifically needed a smuggler who could evade any Imperial entanglements.
Obi-Wan just said they needed transportation and that they'd like to avoid any encounters with the Empire.
As for Biggs, I never said he was lying. I just said his endorsement was hardly unbiased when he was talking about his best friend who has never flown in combat (Or in space for that matter).
I just saw the movie earlier today and enjoyed everything but the actor that play Hano Solo's son, if ever there is a conversation about actors in the wrong roles he goes up to the top.
Luke was early on established to be a pilot who wanted to join the Imperial Academy and become a pilot for the Empire. This is the plane Luke claimed to fly and constantly bullseye Womp Rats with back on Tatooine.
It has similar controls to the then used Rebel variant of the X-Wing. According to canonical sources, it has a maximum speed of 1200 km/h, which is very similar to the atmospheric top speed of Rebel X-Wings. It is not entirely unbelievable or questionable that Luke is a good pilot. It's his one real talent. We can give him that.
Since we don't want to use any outside knowledge all you need is the fact that Biggs vouched that he could handle an X-Wing to Red Leader, a dude who was fully aware of whether or not Luke would possess the skills necessary to fly an X-Wing. Second, nobody is saying this is a perfect progression, what we are saying is that it is at least established in the film that Luke is a good pilot. It's done rather clunky especially since some scenes they intended for him to have early on were cut, but it is established.
Rey is never established has being an hot-shot staff fighter. You cannot compare one scene where she barely beats up some unarmed thugs to the constant nattering in ANH of Luke being the best pilot in the Outer Rim territories.
Just so you know, Luke-haters, that the T-16 Luke was a master at was used as an x-wing training ship by the Rebels because the T-16's targeting systems and flights controls were so similar to an x-wing's. He wasn't going in without any relevant experience.
The only way the last fight makes ANY sense is if you believe Kylo was toying with her. If you think he was trying to kill her, and she bested him, then we all have to accept that there's no rational explanation for it and it's just "the force" at work.
The only way the last fight makes ANY sense is if you believe Kylo was toying with her. If you think he was trying to kill her, and she bested him, then we all have to accept that there's no rational explanation for it and it's just "the force" at work.
He's looking for someone that hauls cargo, not just any pilot.
His conversation with Han Solo makes it clear he knows who he's talking to:
HAN SOLO
Han Solo. I'm captain of the
Millennium Falcon. Chewie here tells
me you're looking for passage to the
Alderaan system.
BEN
Yes, indeed. If it's a fast ship.
HAN
Fast ship? You've never heard of the
Millennium Falcon?
BEN
Should I have?
HAN
It's the ship that made the Kessel
run in less than twelve parsecs!
HAN
I've outrun Imperial starships, not
the local bulk-cruisers, mind you.
I'm talking about the big Corellian
ships now. She's fast enough for
you, old man. What's the cargo?
BEN
Only passengers. Myself, the boy,
two droids, and no questions asked.
HAN
What is it? Some kind of local
trouble?
BEN
Let's just say we'd like to avoid
any Imperial entanglements.
HAN
Well, that's the trick, isn't it?
And it's going to cost you something
extra. Ten thousand in advance.
LUKE
Ten thousand? We could almost buy
our own ship for that!
HAN
But who's going to fly it, kid! You?
LUKE
You bet I could. I'm not such a bad
pilot myself! We don't have to sit
here and listen...
BEN
We haven't that much with us. But we
could pay you two thousand now, plus
fifteen when we reach Alderaan.
HAN
Seventeen, huh!
Han ponders this for a few moments.
HAN
Okay. You guys got yourself a ship.
We'll leave as soon as you're ready.
Docking bay Ninety-four.
He was swinging at her. If she didn't block some of those strikes, she would have died easily. There's no way he could have known an untrained person would be able to block his strikes with a lightsaber. If he wanted to bring her in, why not just force throw/choke her?
This clip of her fighting isn't enough to prove she has fighting skills, but Luke saying "I've shot rats back home" is okay to show he could totally make that Death Star shot with his eyes closed.
Anakin and Luke had their hands cut off. Obviously, they were both just terrible fighters. Everyone knows you're only a great fighter if you can't be touched. It adds more tension.
I have never seen them struggle against muggers so no. You're comparing those 2 thieves to the Sith? OK.
Anakin and Luke were eventually two unarmed men. Get it?
But seriously, since when does their level of armament prove or disprove her skill? If you have a gun and I sucker punch you before you shoot me in the face, it doesn't prove you're not an expert marksman.
But she was not sucker punched. If she was really skilled she could have had the situation under control much better. That scene only tells me that she can defend herself but not a skilled fighter.
Opposed to someone who had no training AT ALL who was also injured and distressed from losing her friend?
That we know of. Maybe it had been slightly guiding her the entire way. We don't really know how the Force works, because it's not a real thing, and kinda tends to work however screenwriters need it to work at any given time.
Not any more than I see how Luke shouldn't have been able to block laser blasts while blind two minutes after first turning on a lightsaber because an old guy said "trust your feelings."
Training with a robot is not the same as fighting a skilled force/light saber knight on your first shot. Plus that's still a heck of a lot more than what Rey got.
But that's kinda the point. This shit has never made sense. But somehow that's only an issue now.
The only way the last fight makes ANY sense is if you believe Kylo was toying with her. If you think he was trying to kill her, and she bested him, then we all have to accept that there's no rational explanation for it and it's just "the force" at work.
Ren was still trying to seriously injure Rey and fighting at that level was enough to stay dominant and corner her up until that shōnen power up.
But don't let that stop you from justifying something that makes no sense eand only serves as dissatisfying storytelling that would be widely lambasted in any other context.
The only way the last fight makes ANY sense is if you believe Kylo was toying with her. If you think he was trying to kill her, and she bested him, then we all have to accept that there's no rational explanation for it and it's just "the force" at work.
