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[Michael F. Assbender]

I took it to be Kylo trying to drive Rey to submission, and if she did not give up, he'd cripple her if needed. That's why he waited until he had her pinned to even say anything. (Also, Kylo Ren is not a Sith, but that's also nitpicking. )

I agree with this. Here's the entire fight (the file was huge, so I broke it into three parts--only cutting out part of Poe's X-Wing badassery--then compressed them so I didn't kill anyone's browser. Please forgive the artifacts):

Then the planet gets blowed up real good (these last two I shrunk because they were still huge):

And the final bit:

Notice she's on her back foot the entire time, only showing any skill after Ren mentions the Force, leading Rey to close her eyes and focus (which is exactly what Maz had directed her to do in the bar). Ren is being cocky.

He's too sure of himself, just as he was with Finn:

He even knocked Finn down and just walked away instead of finishing him off.

Finn gets up and:

Ren continues to fuck with him, spinning his saber like a cocky bastard, then torturing Finn with the short tip.

Finn desperately pushes him away and swings, hitting Ren with a lucky strike, and Ren stops fucking around:

Look at that--when Ren gets real, Finn is instantly disarmed and left comatose (and possibly paralyzed, because damn, look at what he did to Finn's back).

He's just toying with them. Hell, he likely would've ended Rey long before awakening the Force within her if not for something very important Snoke said:

You don't disobey that. You try to tire her out; get her to submit; maybe convince her to join you in embracing the Dark Side of the Force.

His ego (not a lack of skill) was nearly his undoing against Finn before he decided to end the fight, and a combination of ego plus Snoke prevented any such beatdown of Rey.

 

[entremet]

Ponting out flaws and complaining that Rey is an OP mary sue whilst also making Luke out to be some idiot who bumbled and failed his way through ANH are not the same thing.

Especially frankly half of the arguments ignore things that happened in the movie in order to further the idea that Reyis just some OP Mary Sue.

I personally have no problem with Rey's competence, nor am I harkening back to the "good ole days".

My issue is the poor storytelling and character development. These aren't baseless arguments and they've been made as well.

If the explanation is done in the next movie, it doesn't excuse the problems of this film.

 

[excelsiorlef]

I personally have no problem with Rey's competence, nor am I harkening back to the "good ole days".

My issue is the poor storytelling and character development. These aren't baseless arguments and they've been made as well.

If the explanation is done in the next movie, it doesn't excuse the problems of this film.

Then you aren't part of the half.

What exactly were your concerns

 

[wildfire]

And I thought the crowing about Rousey's loss was too much. Rey not getting her ass beat 100% is a whole 'nother level.

 

[entremet]

Then you aren't part of the half.

What exactly were your concerns

Well, the discussion has evolved after 30 plus pages. My issue is that I'd like to see more growth and struggle. It wasn't shown effectively by script or the director. The character is fascinating. I was immediately taken to her and I'm excited for the next films.

My biggest issue with the JMT. It's was a funny gag, but not really believable and too convenient.

The Jedi fight is a silly beef. Ren was injured, emotionally a wreck, and tired.

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

Well, the discussion has evolved after 30 plus pages. My issue is that I'd like to see more growth and struggle. It wasn't shown effectively by script or the director. The character is fascinating. I was immediately taken to her and I'm excited for the next films.

My biggest issue with the JMT. It's was a funny gag, but not really believable and too convenient.

The Jedi fight is a silly beef. Ren was injured, emotionally a wreck, and tired.

I would agree with you that the JMT was too convenient if not for a few things:

1. We don't know how long or how powerful a Force user has to be in order to perform the trick. It's never been discussed in a movie.

2. Star Wars is built on convenient things happening at convenient times. If Uncle Owen had left his home a few minutes later because Aunt Beru's dinner from the night before gave him the shits, Star Wars never happens. If the red droid hadn't exploded before Luke got it home, which led to R2D2 coming with Luke, Star Wars never happens.

3. We don't know Rey's past. The movie strongly hints that she's had Jedi training in the past, and may even be Luke's daughter. Kylo trying to probe around in her brain seems to have been the catalyst for her first "awakening" with the Force, which was just before the JMT moment.

I know you said earlier that you don't care if her character is explained more in the next two movies because she wasn't explained enough here. I respectfully submit that, as part one of a planned trilogy with a full story already mapped out, you can't expect to understand a character's full abilities and motivations so soon.

It'd be like watching Fellowship of the Ring and saying "Sam followed Frodo to certain death because they're friends and because an old man told him to? But Sam's a coward! That makes no sense!" (which is pretty similar to what a girl I was dating said after we saw the movie. She thought it was so dumb, I watched the other two alone). It's not until the last bits where we see Sam's true resolve, and the fact that without his inner strength, Frodo never would have made it as far as he did.

Give the character a chance to be fleshed out.

 

[deathkiller]

The movie strongly hints that she's had Jedi training in the past

I said it before but I completely missed that hint, could you clarify?

 

[excelsiorlef]

Well, the discussion has evolved after 30 plus pages. My issue is that I'd like to see more growth and struggle. It wasn't shown effectively by script or the director. The character is fascinating. I was immediately taken to her and I'm excited for the next films.

My biggest issue with the JMT. It's was a funny gag, but not really believable and too convenient.

The Jedi fight is a silly beef. Ren was injured, emotionally a wreck, and tired.

See I think there was a lot of struggle, the main one in fact that takes the entire movie to resolve.

Rey wants to run back to Jakku. No matter how terrible her life was, no matter how much she wanted to escape, the hope that her family would return was so strong that it was the only thing keeping her going, so she needed to go back even if she didn’t want to, even if life was better for her now because they might come back. It's only when she really lets the force in at the end of the fight with Ren that she starts to resolve that. It's only when she sets off to find Luke that she starts to live in the present and live for herself and not the family she'd been suffering for. That's a lot of growth right there.

 

[Yoshichan]

I agree with this. Here's the entire fight (the file was huge, so I broke it into three parts--only cutting out part of Poe's X-Wing badassery--then compressed them so I didn't kill anyone's browser. Please forgive the artifacts):

Then the planet gets blowed up real good (these last two I shrunk because they were still huge):

And the final bit:

Notice she's on her back foot the entire time, only showing any skill after Ren mentions the Force, leading Rey to close her eyes and focus (which is exactly what Maz had directed her to do in the bar). Ren is being cocky.

He's too sure of himself, just as he was with Finn:

He even knocked Finn down and just walked away instead of finishing him off.

Finn gets up and:

Ren continues to fuck with him, spinning his saber like a cocky bastard, then torturing Finn with the short tip.

Finn desperately pushes him away and swings, hitting Ren with a lucky strike, and Ren stops fucking around:

Look at that--when Ren gets real, Finn is instantly disarmed and left comatose (and possibly paralyzed, because damn, look at what he did to Finn's back).

He's just toying with them. Hell, he likely would've ended Rey long before awakening the Force within her if not for something very important Snoke said:

You don't disobey that. You try to tire her out; get her to submit; maybe convince her to join you in embracing the Dark Side of the Force.

His ego (not a lack of skill) was nearly his undoing against Finn before he decided to end the fight, and a combination of ego plus Snoke prevented any such beatdown of Rey.

I promised myself I'd never post in this thread - but this is the best post I've read on this forum this entire year. Good job.

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

I said it before but I completely missed that hint, could you clarify?

In the scene where Kylo fucks the room up with his saber, the thing that drove him to Force Pull the officer across the room and choke him was the officer saying "the two [Finn and Han] were accompanied by a girl." Why would he react so violently to the news that a girl was with them, unless he knew something about this girl (my thought is he probably felt her presence through the Force, but the officer confirming it drove him mad). I'm guessing he may have even trained with her. Him playing second fiddle to a little girl may have been all it took to push the egomaniac toward slaughtering his classmates and proving his power with the Dark Side).

Also, when Snoke commands Kylo Ren to bring Rey to him, he says "If what you say about this girl is true, bring her to me." What did Ren say about the girl? It's not revealed yet, but you'd have to imagine it's some pretty big shit to make Snoke demand she be kept alive and brought to him, which led to Ren trying to convince her to join the Dark Side.

Finally, she never showed any real connection to the Force (other than some visions) until after Ren probed her mind. As soon as he did, it was like he unlocked something (perhaps a mind wipe?). She could suddenly block Ren's mind probe, probe him back, use the Jedi Mind Trick, Force Pull a lightsaber, and eventually (after calming her mind and letting the Force take control, as Maz showed her) beat Ren in a saber battle.

I'm willing to admit I very well may be dead wrong. Maybe I'm reading too much into things. But they left so much open and gave so many little clues that i'm willing to bet there's a lot more to her than we know.

Luckily, there's the rest of a trilogy to explain it all.

 

[Speely]

I agree with this. Here's the entire fight (the file was huge, so I broke it into three parts-

Thank you for this. Excellent breakdown of the fight. This thread is amazing.

 

[RockTurtle]

am i the only one who enjoyed her tinkering/engineering feats more than the potential force based abilities?

If she had broken out using her knowledge of ship mechanics than the JMT i think would have been more believable/enjoyable and more established as part of her immediate skillset.

she was so giddy when tinkering with the MF while Han was present (almost like showing off).

 

[Neoweee]

am i the only one who enjoyed her tinkering/engineering feats more than the potential force based abilities?

If she had broken out using her knowledge of ship mechanics than the JMT i think would have been more believable/enjoyable and more established as part of her immediate skillset.

she was so giddy when tinkering with the MF while Han was present (almost like showing off).

I agree. It is satisfying seeing the loner scavenger character triumph through resourcefulness and cleverness, and would come off as consistent with her background and experience. Having her triumph due to her creative problem solving is something I hope to see the series emphasize in the future, over mid-battle Level Ups.

 

[Christine]

Kylo doesn't have to fight Finn at all. He could have just struck Finn down while he was distracted by concern for Rey, but instead he shouts "Traitor" to get his attention.

 

[RockTurtle]

i was kinda hoping she would be a Jedi Macaulay Culkin.

 

[Carcetti]

I love this thread. Plop, doing the Jedi Master's work here.

I'm so happy to be a Star Wars fan again, after all this time.

 

[entremet]

am i the only one who enjoyed her tinkering/engineering feats more than the potential force based abilities?

If she had broken out using her knowledge of ship mechanics than the JMT i think would have been more believable/enjoyable and more established as part of her immediate skillset.

she was so giddy when tinkering with the MF while Han was present (almost like showing off).

That was my favorite skillset of hers.

 

[Starsailor]

I agree with this. Here's the entire fight (the file was huge, so I broke it into three parts--only cutting out part of Poe's X-Wing badassery--then compressed them so I didn't kill anyone's browser. Please forgive the artifacts):

Then the planet gets blowed up real good (these last two I shrunk because they were still huge):

And the final bit:

Notice she's on her back foot the entire time, only showing any skill after Ren mentions the Force, leading Rey to close her eyes and focus (which is exactly what Maz had directed her to do in the bar). Ren is being cocky.

He's too sure of himself, just as he was with Finn:

He even knocked Finn down and just walked away instead of finishing him off.

Finn gets up and:

Ren continues to fuck with him, spinning his saber like a cocky bastard, then torturing Finn with the short tip.

Finn desperately pushes him away and swings, hitting Ren with a lucky strike, and Ren stops fucking around:

Look at that--when Ren gets real, Finn is instantly disarmed and left comatose (and possibly paralyzed, because damn, look at what he did to Finn's back).

He's just toying with them. Hell, he likely would've ended Rey long before awakening the Force within her if not for something very important Snoke said:

You don't disobey that. You try to tire her out; get her to submit; maybe convince her to join you in embracing the Dark Side of the Force.

His ego (not a lack of skill) was nearly his undoing against Finn before he decided to end the fight, and a combination of ego plus Snoke prevented any such beatdown of Rey.

Best post ever

 

[entremet]

I would agree with you that the JMT was too convenient if not for a few things:

1. We don't know how long or how powerful a Force user has to be in order to perform the trick. It's never been discussed in a movie.

2. Star Wars is built on convenient things happening at convenient times. If Uncle Owen had left his home a few minutes later because Aunt Beru's dinner from the night before gave him the shits, Star Wars never happens. If the red droid hadn't exploded before Luke got it home, which led to R2D2 coming with Luke, Star Wars never happens.

3. We don't know Rey's past. The movie strongly hints that she's had Jedi training in the past, and may even be Luke's daughter. Kylo trying to probe around in her brain seems to have been the catalyst for her first "awakening" with the Force, which was just before the JMT moment.

I know you said earlier that you don't care if her character is explained more in the next two movies because she wasn't explained enough here. I respectfully submit that, as part one of a planned trilogy with a full story already mapped out, you can't expect to understand a character's full abilities and motivations so soon.

It'd be like watching Fellowship of the Ring and saying "Sam followed Frodo to certain death because they're friends and because an old man told him to? But Sam's a coward! That makes no sense!" (which is pretty similar to what a girl I was dating said after we saw the movie. She thought it was so dumb, I watched the other two alone). It's not until the last bits where we see Sam's true resolve, and the fact that without his inner strength, Frodo never would have made it as far as he did.

Give the character a chance to be fleshed out.

Those are good points, but LOTR was never really envisioned as a trilogy. It's considered a full work. The novel at least. I didn't care for the films.

Of course with the current flair for cinematic universes, it kinda changed the game in terms of narrative structure for films. But, to me, it's a bit unfulfilling storytelling.

 

[Starsailor]

Kylo doesn't have to fight Finn at all. He could have just struck Finn down while he was distracted by concern for Rey, but instead he shouts "Traitor" to get his attention.

That scene was made to "mirror" the obi-wan scene "you were the chosen one" at the end of episode 3 (but this time it's the dark sith who's angry against a stormtrooper who choose the light, in a snow scene).

Although he wanted to capture Rey so he use the force to her and also because she's the most dangerous for him.

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

Kylo doesn't have to fight Finn at all. He could have just struck Finn down while he was distracted by concern for Rey, but instead he shouts "Traitor" to get his attention.

Excellent point. Instead of murdering Finn straight away, he has to "teach him a lesson." His massive ego getting in his way again.

 

[plasmawave]

In the scene where Kylo fucks the room up with his saber, the thing that drove him to Force Pull the officer across the room and choke him was the officer saying "the two [Finn and Han] were accompanied by a girl." Why would he react so violently to the news that a girl was with them, unless he knew something about this girl (my thought is he probably felt her presence through the Force, but the officer confirming it drove him mad). I'm guessing he may have even trained with her. Him playing second fiddle to a little girl may have been all it took to push the egomaniac toward slaughtering his classmates and proving his power with the Dark Side).

Also, when Snoke commands Kylo Ren to bring Rey to him, he says "If what you say about this girl is true, bring her to me." What did Ren say about the girl? It's not revealed yet, but you'd have to imagine it's some pretty big shit to make Snoke demand she be kept alive and brought to him, which led to Ren trying to convince her to join the Dark Side.

Finally, she never showed any real connection to the Force (other than some visions) until after Ren probed her mind. As soon as he did, it was like he unlocked something (perhaps a mind wipe?). She could suddenly block Ren's mind probe, probe him back, use the Jedi Mind Trick, Force Pull a lightsaber, and eventually (after calming her mind and letting the Force take control, as Maz showed her) beat Ren in a saber battle.

I'm willing to admit I very well may be dead wrong. Maybe I'm reading too much into things. But they left so much open and gave so many little clues that i'm willing to bet there's a lot more to her than we know.

Luckily, there's the rest of a trilogy to explain it all.

No. Kylo says to Snoke "She's not trained but her force is stronger than she knows". That's why Snoke wants her. Plus she has the map in her head.
If they had trained together under Luke then shouldn't Kylo have recognized her and question why she doesn't remember anything?

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

Those are good points, but LOTR was never really envisioned as a trilogy. It's considered a full work. The novel at least. I didn't care for the films.

It was envisioned as a full work, but released in three volumes, with the last coming a full year after the first. Splitting hairs, I know, but it helps my point that giving up on the character after part one is silly when you know there are two other full parts coming

 

[JasonUresti]

Kylo was walking around after taking a gut shot from a weapon that had earlier been shown to hit people with enough force to send them flying. Nowhere near his best, and he wasnt trying to kill her for the first part of the fight.

Vader did the same thing to Luke. He wasnt trying to kill or seriously hurt him, didnt want to damage the Emperor's prize as it were, until Luke started to gain some confidence and landed a blow to Vader. After which Vader snarls and gets serious and a move or two later Luke is missing a lightsaber and a hand.

Kylo is, especially at that moment, no Darth Vader and so he got caught flat footed when Rey started to channel the Force. Up until that point she had just been fighting with her martial skills, like Finn, so he had little to worry about. Once he was facing a real fight, it was too much for him, as tired and terribly wounded as he was.

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

No. Kylo says to Snoke "She's not trained but her force is stronger than she knows". That's why Snoke wants her. Plus she has the map in her head.
If they had trained together under Luke then shouldn't Kylo have recognized her and question why she doesn't remember anything?

It's entirely possible they didn't train together, but that doesn't make the idea that she's had some Force training less likely.

But again, even if she hadn't been trained in the past, she's obviously got a powerful connection to the Force. She just needed it to be poked from its slumber. "Awakened" some might say.

 

[entremet]

It was envisioned as a full work, but released in three volumes, with the last coming a full year after the first. Splitting hairs, I know, but it helps my point that giving up on the character after part one is silly when you know there are two other full parts coming

When did I say I was giving up on Rey? I was just unsatisfied with her treatment, and only specific parts of it, in this film.

There are shades of gray here. We don't have to stick to dichotomies in this discussion.

 

[-ImaginaryInsider]

am i the only one who enjoyed her tinkering/engineering feats more than the potential force based abilities?

If she had broken out using her knowledge of ship mechanics than the JMT i think would have been more believable/enjoyable and more established as part of her immediate skillset.

she was so giddy when tinkering with the MF while Han was present (almost like showing off).

Agreed, I really liked that aspect of her, and they did a good job of subtlely conveying she was a tinkerer at the beginning of the movie. I also really enjoyed them showing her little AT-AT hideaway and the snippet of her life before getting pulled into the craziness.

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

When did I say I was giving up on Rey? I was just unsatisfied with her treatment, and only specific parts of it, in this film.

There are shades of gray here. We don't have to stick to dichotomies in this discussion.

Oh no no, not you. I just meant in general.

 

[flintstryker]

In the scene where Kylo fucks the room up with his saber, the thing that drove him to Force Pull the officer across the room and choke him was the officer saying "the two [Finn and Han] were accompanied by a girl." Why would he react so violently to the news that a girl was with them, unless he knew something about this girl (my thought is he probably felt her presence through the Force, but the officer confirming it drove him mad). I'm guessing he may have even trained with her. Him playing second fiddle to a little girl may have been all it took to push the egomaniac toward slaughtering his classmates and proving his power with the Dark Side).

Also, when Snoke commands Kylo Ren to bring Rey to him, he says "If what you say about this girl is true, bring her to me." What did Ren say about the girl? It's not revealed yet, but you'd have to imagine it's some pretty big shit to make Snoke demand she be kept alive and brought to him, which led to Ren trying to convince her to join the Dark Side.

Finally, she never showed any real connection to the Force (other than some visions) until after Ren probed her mind. As soon as he did, it was like he unlocked something (perhaps a mind wipe?). She could suddenly block Ren's mind probe, probe him back, use the Jedi Mind Trick, Force Pull a lightsaber, and eventually (after calming her mind and letting the Force take control, as Maz showed her) beat Ren in a saber battle.

I'm willing to admit I very well may be dead wrong. Maybe I'm reading too much into things. But they left so much open and gave so many little clues that i'm willing to bet there's a lot more to her than we know.

Luckily, there's the rest of a trilogy to explain it all.

Pretty sure Ren had just been bitching about her being strong in the force so that's what he said about her

 

[foxtrot3d]

I agree with this. Here's the entire fight (the file was huge, so I broke it into three parts--only cutting out part of Poe's X-Wing badassery--then compressed them so I didn't kill anyone's browser. Please forgive the artifacts):
...

His ego (not a lack of skill) was nearly his undoing against Finn before he decided to end the fight, and a combination of ego plus Snoke prevented any such beatdown of Rey.

*snip*

I haven't posted in this thread yet because I believe I've already discussed this aspect to the film ad nauseum when the movie came out last week and I thought Max Landis summed up all the points quite well. But, I felt I had to respond to this post. I don't think anyone is disputing that Ren was toying with Rey and Finn at the outset or that he was wounded, my complaint with the fight is that tiny portion in the end where Rey taps into the Force, downloads Advanced Saber Techniques, gives an "I know kung-fu" look, and quickly dispenses with Ren. As Han Solo stated in the movie:

That's not how The Force works!

As far as we know Rey is completely untrained in saber combat, and totally unskilled in the use of The Force. Thus, for her to all of a sudden tap into The Force and just immediately become good at lightsaber combat makes no sense. It takes lightsaber duels and diminishes them since they are no longer a bout based upon the individual skill levels of the opponents, rather they become a boring calculation as to who has the higher Force Power Level.

Luke didn't tap into The Force and suddenly kick Vader's ass in Empire or Jedi, those fights were about much more than the power levels of the individual opponents. And, it's not just that Rey taps into the Force and escapes Ren, she eviscerates him. The fight could have had her "win" and escape Ren without suddenly making her even more OP than she was in the film. She could have tapped into The Force and done a Force Push on a distracted Ren allowing her to escape, she could have pulled a branch towards him causing him to turn around distracted and allow her to escape, she could have exploited the gaping wound in his side, etc. Instead, she just instantly "gets good" and defeats him in 1 v 1 saber combat. Lame.

 

[Starsailor]

gives an "I know kung-fu" look,

But that look was so awesome

 

[Crossing Eden]

*snip*

I haven't posted in this thread yet because I believe I've already discussed this aspect to the film ad nauseum when the movie came out last week and I thought Max Landis summed up all the points quite well. But, I felt I had to respond to this post. I don't think anyone is disputing that Ren was toying with Rey and Finn at the outset or that he was wounded, my complaint with the fight is that tiny portion in the end where Rey taps into the Force, downloads Advanced Saber Techniques, gives an "I know kung-fu" look, and quickly dispenses with Ren. As Han Solo stated in the movie:

That's not how The Force works!

As far as we know Rey is completely untrained in saber combat, and totally unskilled in the use of The Force. Thus, for her to all of a sudden tap into The Force and just immediately become good at lightsaber combat makes no sense. It takes lightsaber duels and diminishes them since they are no longer a bout based upon the individual skill levels of the opponents, rather they become a boring calculation as to who has the higher Force Power Level. Kylo was in no way shape or form using advanced saber techniques either, he was using overheard strikes and trying to wear her down to overpower her.

Luke didn't tap into The Force and suddenly kick Vader's ass in Empire or Jedi, those fights were about much more than the power levels of the individual opponents. And, it's not just that Rey taps into the Force and escapes Ren, she eviscerates him. The fight could have had her "win" and escape Ren without suddenly making her even more OP than she was in the film. She could have tapped into The Force and done a Force Push on a distracted Ren allowing her to escape, she could have pulled a branch towards him causing him to turn around distracted and allow her to escape, she could have exploited the gaping wound in his side, etc. Instead, she just instantly "gets good" and defeats him in 1 v 1 saber combat. Lame.

That is how the force works. When Rey became the aggressor she was in no way shape or form using advanced saber techniques™. She was then on fighting smarter and taking advantage of the openings. At that point Kylo was exhausted to the point where she can physically overpower him.

 

[The One and Done™]

I agree with this. Here's the entire fight (the file was huge, so I broke it into three parts--only cutting out part of Poe's X-Wing badassery--then compressed them so I didn't kill anyone's browser. Please forgive the artifacts):

Then the planet gets blowed up real good (these last two I shrunk because they were still huge):

And the final bit:

Notice she's on her back foot the entire time, only showing any skill after Ren mentions the Force, leading Rey to close her eyes and focus (which is exactly what Maz had directed her to do in the bar). Ren is being cocky.

He's too sure of himself, just as he was with Finn:

He even knocked Finn down and just walked away instead of finishing him off.

Finn gets up and:

Ren continues to fuck with him, spinning his saber like a cocky bastard, then torturing Finn with the short tip.

Finn desperately pushes him away and swings, hitting Ren with a lucky strike, and Ren stops fucking around:

Look at that--when Ren gets real, Finn is instantly disarmed and left comatose (and possibly paralyzed, because damn, look at what he did to Finn's back).

He's just toying with them. Hell, he likely would've ended Rey long before awakening the Force within her if not for something very important Snoke said:

You don't disobey that. You try to tire her out; get her to submit; maybe convince her to join you in embracing the Dark Side of the Force.

His ego (not a lack of skill) was nearly his undoing against Finn before he decided to end the fight, and a combination of ego plus Snoke prevented any such beatdown of Rey.

Excellent post

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

*snip*

I haven't posted in this thread yet because I believe I've already discussed this aspect to the film ad nauseum when the movie came out last week and I thought Max Landis summed up all the points quite well. But, I felt I had to respond to this post. I don't think anyone is disputing that Ren was toying with Rey and Finn at the outset or that he was wounded, my complaint with the fight is that tiny portion in the end where Rey taps into the Force, downloads Advanced Saber Techniques, gives an "I know kung-fu" look, and quickly dispenses with Ren. As Han Solo stated in the movie:

That's not how The Force works!

But that's the thing: We don't really know how the Force works. The only thing consistent about it is that it's used for whatever purpose the writer thinks is necessary at a given moment.

As far as we know Rey is completely untrained in saber combat, and totally unskilled in the use of The Force. Thus, for her to all of a sudden tap into The Force and just immediately become good at lightsaber combat makes no sense. It takes lightsaber duels and diminishes them since they are no longer a bout based upon the individual skill levels of the opponents, rather they become a boring calculation as to who has the higher Force Power Level.

As far as we know, she has no saber training. This is true. But we do know she's a tough woman who survived a dozen plus years on a hostile planet all by herself, and we know she's a fantastic fighter with a staff.

So she has the raw skills. Tapping into the Force and letting it guide her (as Obi describes it in ANH, the Force can control you and guide you just as you can guide and control it) was just a boost to her already fantastic skills. Those skills alone probably wouldn't have been enough to beat a Kylo Ren who was healthy and fully able to unleash hell. But this wasn't the case. He had been shot in the kidney, just murdered his father, his planet-sized war base was about to explode, which would piss off his master who had also ordered him to take Rey alive and bring her to him. Ren failed because he got cocky, and because he had a shit-ton of outside forces (no pun intended) slowing him down.

Luke didn't tap into The Force and suddenly kick Vader's ass in Empire or Jedi, those fights were about much more than the power levels of the individual opponents. And, it's not just that Rey taps into the Force and escapes Ren, she eviscerates him. The fight could have had her "win" and escape Ren without suddenly making her even more OP than she was in the film. She could have tapped into The Force and done a Force Push on a distracted Ren allowing her to escape, she could have pulled a branch towards him causing him to turn around distracted and allow her to escape, she could have exploited the gaping wound in his side, etc. Instead, she just instantly "gets good" and defeats him in 1 v 1 saber combat. Lame.

Luke wasn't a fighter. He was a farm boy who spent his time whining and shooting wamprats. Rey was an asskicker for most of her life (and maybe more of it than we know thus far), so she wouldn't need to go through training to kick the shit out of a wounded man.

 

[Veelk]

That's not how The Force works!

As far as we know Rey is completely untrained in saber combat, and totally unskilled in the use of The Force. Thus, for her to all of a sudden tap into The Force and just immediately become good at lightsaber combat makes no sense.

Cite this.

Seriously, plot went out of his way to provide actual evidence by pointing to specific narrative instances where the force was demonstrated to work as such a way in which he was describing.

So show me one instance where Yoda trained Luke in using the lightsaber. Quote me where Yoda said that his skills in lightsaber were not Vader's match and so he had to stay while they sparred. I don't like to use the prequels because they should be removed from continuity, but I'll even go as far as to say where it was established that practical knowledge in how to swing a glowy stick was more central to the idea of being a good fighter than knowing the ways of the force.

You want to be an authority in how the force works, then back your claims up.

It takes lightsaber duels and diminishes them since they are no longer a bout based upon the individual skill levels of the opponents, rather they become a boring calculation as to who has the higher Force Power Level.

This is an interesting observation because I am convinced that's what the people arguing in favor of Rey not having 'lightsaber skills' doing. You and other seem argue that you needed her to level grind on dueling and force for the duel with Ren to be believable. How is that now power levels?

The argument I've seen on the otherside is that the link between force capability and person is determined by their narrative character arc. In my arguments, Rey won because she willed herself into being a complete person after the whole movie was about getting her to that point. Conversely, Ren lost because of the turmoil he was in. Their characterization was what bestowed them the power they had, and I thought that was what made star wars special, not seeing (or waiting to see) Luke level grind until they are powerful enough to take on Vader.

Luke didn't tap into The Force and suddenly kick Vader's ass in Empire or Jedi

In Empire: Yeah, that's why he got his ass beat

In Jedi: Yes he did. The fight is spent with Vader constantly egging him on into giving into his darkside because that's where all the power is. Luke finally does when Vader threatens his sister, and guess what happens? He beats Vader's ass, by letting the anger and dark side control him.

 

[foxtrot3d]

But that's the thing: We don't really know how the Force works. The only thing consistent about it is that it's used for whatever purpose the writer thinks is necessary at a given moment.


As far as we know, she has no saber training. This is true. But we do know she's a tough woman who survived a dozen plus years on a hostile planet all by herself, and we know she's a fantastic fighter with a staff.

So she has the raw skills. Tapping into the Force and letting it guide her (as Obi describes it in ANH, the Force can control you and guide you just as you can guide and control it) was just a boost to her already fantastic skills. Those skills alone probably wouldn't have been enough to beat a Kylo Ren who was healthy and fully able to unleash hell. But this wasn't the case. He had been shot in the kidney, just murdered his father, his planet-sized war base was about to explode, which would piss off his master who had also ordered him to take Rey alive and bring her to him. Ren failed because he got cocky, and because he had a shit-ton of outside forces (no pun intended) slowing him down.


Luke wasn't a fighter. He was a farm boy who spent his time whining and shooting wamprats. Rey was an asskicker for most of her life (and maybe more of it than we know thus far), so she wouldn't need to go through training to kick the shit out of a wounded man.

We're are you getting this from?

I've seen the movie twice now and it's never shown that she is some ass kicker with a staff. The one scene where those dudes on Jakku tried to steal from her she used some dirty scrap fighting techniques to fend them off, she did not use her staff. The only time she used her staff was to knock a unknowing Finn to the ground. So this idea that she's this staff master because she lived on a "hostile" planet for an unspecified amount of years hitting people on the head is complete supposition on your part. That said, even accepting she spent all her days smacking people on the head with her staff would not mean she's a trained duelist.

Turning The Force into a magic, "I win" card ruins any tension in a fight. Like I said these fights shouldn't be about the power levels of the individual fighters but about their actual skill. Rey should have had her butt beat by Ren, wounded or not, barely escaping due to luck or The Force. The tension comes from how she will manage to escape the fight unscathed when we know she is facing a superior foe. But, if she can just close her eyes and suddenly get even better any tension in a fight is destroyed.

The Force should be an enhancer, an extra little element that helps a user take advantage of a situation and get through a tough pickle. Luke was considered the best damn pilot in the Outer Rim systems, he didn't tap into The Force and suddenly take down 20 TIE Fighters. Instead, he used it to trust his gut instinct and get a feel for the right time to fire the Death Star shot. That is an effective use of The Force not "I know kung fu."

Cite this.

Seriously, plot went out of his way to provide actual evidence by pointing to specific narrative instances where the force was demonstrated to work as such a way in which he was describing.

So show me one instance where Yoda trained Luke in using the lightsaber. Quote me where Yoda said that his skills in lightsaber were not Vader's match and so he had to stay while they sparred. I don't like to use the prequels because they should be removed from continuity, but I'll even go as far as to say where it was established that practical knowledge in how to swing a glowy stick was more central to the idea of being a good fighter than knowing the ways of the force.

You want to be an authority in how the force works, then back your claims up.

Um, how about that scene in AOTC where Yoda was training younglings in The Force and Lightsaber usage...

 

[Veelk]

Um, how about that scene in AOTC where Yoda was training younglings in The Force and Lightsaber usage...

I don't recall that scene, so please elaborate. Specifically, what does Yoda say?

Edit: I looked it up on youtube. I don't see what your getting at. It's the same advise Obi-wan gave Luke. "Reach out, use your feelings, feel the force around you" yada yada. So, it seems like the way the force works is "Using feelings -> Using the force -> Abilities with Lightsaber" rather than "Lightsaber training -> abiltiies with Lightsaber".

To be clear, I'm not saying Jedi didn't train with the lightsaber. Of course they did. But the lightsaber wasn't the point. The Force was the point. They got stronger through the force. They used the lightsaber through the force. The lightsaber was just the thing they happened to use it through most often. But it was the force that was the real weapon that the glowy stick worked through.

So, I ask again: Give me an example of training specifically FOR lightsaber combat, rather than merely WITH lightsabers

 

[excelsiorlef]

We're are you getting this from?

I've seen the movie twice now and it's never shown that she is some ass kicker with a staff. The one scene where those dudes on Jakku tried to steal from her she used some dirty scrap fighting techniques to fend them off, she did not use her staff. The only time she used her staff was to knock a unknowing Finn to the ground. So this idea that she's this staff master because she lived on a "hostile" planet for an unspecified amount of years hitting people on the head is complete supposition on your part. That said, even accepting she spent all her days smacking people on the head with her staff would not mean she's a trained duelist.

Ummm pretty sure she in fact did use the staff to take those guys out. And fend them off? She kicked their assess.

The entire set up was to show that she was a tough as nails survior. Hell she even wields the saber at the end like a staff fighter.

Did you need a line saying wow guess those 15 years of surviving and staff fighting really paid off?

Man I've never seen people demand to be force fed so much when almost all complaints are usually the opposite (people complaining that movies info dump when it's better to show not tell)

 

[foxtrot3d]

Ummm pretty sure she in fact did use the staff to take those guys out. And fend them off? She kicked their assess.

The entire set up was to show that she was a tough as nails survior. Hell she even wields the saber at the end like a staff fighter.

Did you need a line saying wow guess those 15 years of surviving and staff fighting really paid off?

Man I've never seen people demand to be force fed so much when almost all complaints are usually the opposite (people complaining that movies info dump when it's better to show not tell)

I've seen the movie twice at no point does she use her staff against those dude on Jakku and I was paying super close attention that second time.

 

[Mandius]

So, it seems like the way the force works is "Using feelings -> Using the force -> Abilities with Lightsaber" rather than "Lightsaber training -> abiltiies with Lightsaber".

Yoda and Dooku have to throw down with lightsabers specifically due to them being evenly matched in the force.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLV-Vpy1gqQ

And then in ROTS Grievous is able to go toe to toe with Obi Wan due to saber training.

 

[Veelk]

Yoda and Dooku have to throw down with lightsabers specifically do to them being evenly matched in the force.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLV-Vpy1gqQ

Hm....Yeah, I guess that's true.

I'll right, I concede that they considered them distinct forms of combat in the prequels. I don't think it's that way either in the OT or the new movie, which obviously follows the OT much better, but I asked for any example, and this qualifies.

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

I've seen the movie twice at no point does she use her staff against those dude on Jakku and I was paying super close attention that second time.

She knows how to use a weapon to fight.

Does that translate into "Super Jedi Lightsaber Fighter"? Of course not. But letting the Force flow through her did help her defeat a wounded and bleeding punk with his head up his ass.

 

[foxtrot3d]

She knows how to use a weapon to fight.

Does that translate into "Super Jedi Lightsaber Fighter"? Of course not. But letting the Force flow through her did help her defeat a wounded and bleeding punk with his head up his ass.

She knows how to hit people with a stick, that does not translate into advanced saber fighting techniques, even wounded Ren should have been a considerable threat since he's actually been trained.

 

[The One and Done™]

I've seen the movie twice at no point does she use her staff against those dude on Jakku and I was paying super close attention that second time.

Did you fall asleep perhaps?

 

[Frog-fu]

I agree with this. Here's the entire fight (the file was huge, so I broke it into three parts--only cutting out part of Poe's X-Wing badassery--then compressed them so I didn't kill anyone's browser. Please forgive the artifacts):

Then the planet gets blowed up real good (these last two I shrunk because they were still huge):


And the final bit:


Notice she's on her back foot the entire time, only showing any skill after Ren mentions the Force, leading Rey to close her eyes and focus (which is exactly what Maz had directed her to do in the bar). Ren is being cocky.

He's too sure of himself, just as he was with Finn:

He even knocked Finn down and just walked away instead of finishing him off.

Finn gets up and:


Ren continues to fuck with him, spinning his saber like a cocky bastard, then torturing Finn with the short tip.

Finn desperately pushes him away and swings, hitting Ren with a lucky strike, and Ren stops fucking around:

Look at that--when Ren gets real, Finn is instantly disarmed and left comatose (and possibly paralyzed, because damn, look at what he did to Finn's back).

He's just toying with them. Hell, he likely would've ended Rey long before awakening the Force within her if not for something very important Snoke said:


You don't disobey that. You try to tire her out; get her to submit; maybe convince her to join you in embracing the Dark Side of the Force.

His ego (not a lack of skill) was nearly his undoing against Finn before he decided to end the fight, and a combination of ego plus Snoke prevented any such beatdown of Rey.

I'd like to point out that I have been making the same points - with the exception of Ren putting himself in danger against Finn, which is nowhere near the truth - and using the same evidence for days and people have told me time and again that I was getting it wrong and that Ren was going crazy and unable to concentrate and that his wounds were preventing him wrong winning.

That's the benefits of having gifs though, I suppose.

Anyway, it's strikes me as interesting how you can line all up all this evidence and yet come to the conclusion there was nothing wrong with the way that fight ended given that everything was going in favour of Ren, in spite of his injuries.

I also challenge your observation Ren lost due to his ego. Ego had nothing to do with it. Ren was confident in his abilities - as he should have been, given the fact he was facing two novices with no apparent skill or experience in either the Force or lightsabers.

That's what makes that fight ridiculous and lends all the more credibility that Rey - who was able to apparently let the Force do the fighting for her - despite having no prior training or there ever being a precedent of such a blatant power creep being possible or justifiable in prior Star Wars canon before.

 

[excelsiorlef]

She knows how to use a weapon to fight.

Does that translate into "Super Jedi Lightsaber Fighter"? Of course not. But letting the Force flow through her did help her defeat a wounded and bleeding punk with his head up his ass.

You're a hero with all these gifs.

Doesn't use the staf my ass.

 

[GaimeGuy]

she's not using the staff, she's flailing her arms about!

 

[excelsiorlef]

She knows how to hit people with a stick, that does not translate into advanced saber fighting techniques, even wounded Ren should have been a considerable threat since he's actually been trained.

Lol so now that you got caught, you downplay the staff to a stick and make her proficiency in staff fighting irrelevant.

Love this.

 

[The One and Done™]

she's not using the staff, she's flailing her arms about!

LOL

 

[Michael F. Assbender]

She knows how to hit people with a stick, that does not translate into advanced saber fighting techniques, even wounded Ren should have been a considerable threat since he's actually been trained.

So it goes from "at no point does she use the staff to fight. I paid extra close attention," to "okay, but that doesn't mean anything."

The point is, she knows how to fight. The Force accentuated her skills and she beat a man who was wounded, distracted, had been ordered to take her in alive, and who hasn't been fully trained himself.

It's a matter of "different strokes for different folks," but I'm glad they left things open to interpretation. God knows the movie didn't need a Rocky-style montage or something.